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Breaking News: Benazir Bhutto killed in suicide attack.

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SteveMeister

Hang out with Steve.
norinrad21 said:
It was a matter of time though, these fanatics were bent on killing her and unfortunately this one succeeded in finally getting to her.

And she kept putting herself in harm's way, ever since the first day she returned to the country. It was only a matter of time. I have to think it was a calculated risk on her part -- if she put herself in public places, she'd show the people how brave she is, and how defiant she was in the face of all the threats. And if one of those threats should come to fruition, she'd be a martyr, and those who wanted her in power could rally around her death and effect change.

What a mess.
 

Zapages

Member
You mean the speech that he denied giving?

How can a person deny a speech, when he actually gave it and there is proof about it.



Personal vendetta and some more...

Man, this has been true for decades so is hardly a unique feature of Musharraf's rule. I remember pamphlets being distrubuted in engineering associations (my father's an engineer) that complained about millitary children getting great free education and that was when I was young. The army has always looked after itself. As *administrations* go, Sharif and Bhutto where hella corrupt.

Its worse now then ever before from what I know about on how everything is working there.

That's fine and I hope no one who read your post assumed that it was a done deal.

I hope so too...
 

Zapages

Member
Azih said:
I don't know, what with the accusations of Musharraf being a puppet and trying to 'change Pakistan's culture'. The same charges were levelled against Bhutto. That's kinda all Taliban types need to start trying to kill people.

Sharif is the only one immune to those kinds of attacks becuase he has the support of muslim parties.


Musharaf does whatever America wants... Its like he says yes and yes. This occurred in more so after 9/11...

Shariff is sort of immune, but not fully... I don't like him either...
 
Zapages said:
Sorry to hear about your parents...

But I have a hard time believing that talibani people would want to do that. It definitely would not be in their interest.

dude its just religious fanatics. They are all over Pakistan
 
I like her policies, but don't like her. I'm not Pakistani or really care for anything that happens in Pakistan.

It still sent chills on my spine when I opened CNN with the headline saying she was assassinated. Damn.
 

Zapages

Member
norinrad21 said:
dude its just religious fanatics. They are all over Pakistan

If you mean anyone who has a beard is a religious fanatics... I try to see what they are trying to say before accusing someone in being a religious fanatic from just looking at their appearance...
 

Azih

Member
Zapages said:
How can a person deny a speech, when he actually gave it and there is proof about it.
Link me to the speech please.

Musharaf does whatever America wants
You'll find pleny of Americans here who will completely argue against that impression.

Just as an example. Musharraf was negotiating a truce with tribes on the Afghani Pakistani border, this was not taken well by the American administration. That was one of the only things being discussed in Musharaff's book tour in the States.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
Zapages said:
Sorry to hear about your parents...

But I have a hard time believing that talibani people would want to do that. It definitely would not be in their interest.

I don't think Talibani idiots need rational thought to carry out an action, they just do it if they think it will progress their politics.

I actually think Musharraf has the most to lose by Bhutto being assassinated, now everyone is going to blame him and his rule will seem illegitimate when seeing it through the eye of democracy, whereas if Bhutto wasn't killed, he would be in power either way when elections rolled around. (if Bhutto won, there would be a power sharing deal)
 
Zapages said:
If you mean anyone who has a beard is a religious fanatics... I try to see what they are trying to say before accusing someone in being a religious fanatic from just looking at their appearance...

Please don't take my words out of context.

A fanatic is a fanatic and they come in all shapes and forms, bearded or not.
 
Azih said:
She came from a landlord family and her administration was extremely corrupt though.
It's a case of evil and more evil. I'd accept a corrupt civilian leader over a militaristic despots any day of the week.
 
Bhutto was ousted for corruption and backed the Taliban. Why was she great again? I don't want to talk shit about the recently dead but I honestly have no clue why some people were willing to ignore the fact that she barely did any good for Pakistan in her existence.

papelnabangka said:
It's a case of evil and more evil. I'd accept a corrupt civilian leader over a militaristic despots any day of the week.

Why?

Like Azih touched on, Musharraf has been making notable economic and infrastructure improvements in Pakistan. That is how progress is made.
 

android

Theoretical Magician
whytemyke said:
That's the problem. The only people that would overthrow him are people who would be far more hostile to the West. Do you really want someone in there who's going to create a nuclear showdown with India on Chinas border over Kashmir? Do you want someone who's not even going to give the illusion of assisting the West with intelligence info about the terror cells in his own country?

Musharraf is a necessary evil, imo, unless you want even more war. Don't jump to conclusions that he's behind this.
Well of course you are right in a sense. But you are assuming that because he is gone everything blows up in Pakistan. The other side of the coin is democracy taking over in Pakistan lead by her or Sharif returning to power and leading Pakistan into a better era. What Musharraf gains is the death of his biggest threat to his power as well and a legitimate reason to declare military rule and remove any chance of democracy in Pakistan. You are right that he could very well not be behind this.... but don't assume that he doesn't have a lot to gain by her death.
 

Azih

Member
Macam said:
Well that wasn't an assassination attempt as much as it was.. well, Pakistani politics sadly. Which is why ordinary Pakistanis stay the hell away from politics. This wasn't an attack by *religous extremists* as happens to Musharraf and might have happened to Bhutto which is what I was referring to.

The other side of the coin is democracy taking over in Pakistan lead by her or Sharif returning to power and leading Pakistan into a better era
You do know the Sharif and Bhutto governments didn't work right?. And that was before the crazy complications that 9/11 brought.
 

DeadTrees

Member
The LRB on Bhutto, from a few weeks ago: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n24/ali_01_.html
And:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n19/ali_01_.html
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n01/ali_01_.html

Re: Bhutto's support of the Taliban:
With Zia’s assassination, the second period of military rule in Pakistan came to an end. What followed was a longish civilian prologue to Musharraf’s reign. For ten years members of two political dynasties – the Bhutto and Sharif families – ran the country in turn. It was Benazir Bhutto’s minister of the interior, General Naseerullah Babar, who, with the ISI, devised the plan to set up the Taliban as a politico-military force that could penetrate Afghanistan, a move half-heartedly approved by the US Embassy. Washington had lost interest in Afghanistan and Pakistan once the Soviet Union had withdrawn its troops. The Taliban (‘students’) were children of Afghan refugees and poor Pathan families ‘educated’ in the madrassahs in the 1980s: they provided the shock troops, but were led by a handful of experienced mujahedin including Mullah Omar. Without Pakistan’s support they could never have taken Kabul, although Mullah Omar preferred to forget this. Omar’s faction was dominant, but the ISI never completely lost control of the organisation. Islamabad kept its cool even when Omar’s zealots asserted their independence by attacking the Pakistan Embassy in Kabul and his religious police interrupted a football match between the two countries because the Pakistan players sported long hair and shorts, caned the players before the stunned crowd and sent them back home.
 
This is fucking bullshit.

I just heard myself... I'm Canadian and of German/Ukrainian descent, but my best friend growing up is of Pakistani descent (and his parents whom I was close with lived their for much of their life) so I've a personal attachment to the country.

Her government may not of been perfect but this still sends me into a fucking rage. I don't think any single event of news as put me in as much debelief in the last 6 years.
 

Azih

Member
KyanMehwulfe said:
This is fucking bullshit.

I just heard myself... I'm Canadian and of German/Ukrainian descent, but my best friend growing up is of Pakistani descent (and his parents whom I was close with lived their for much of their life) so I've a personal attachment to the country.

Her government may not of been perfect but this still sends me into a fucking rage. I don't think any single event of news as put me in as much debelief in the last 6 years.

Whoah dude, you're angrier than the Pakistanis on this board. Kinda shows how jaded we are I guess.
 
Azih said:
Whoah dude, you're angrier than the Pakistanis on this board. Kinda shows how jaded we are I guess.
Some unrealistic optimism on my part. I shouldn't be surprised.

I'm just in disbelief more than anything, and disapointed.
 

Dr.Guru of Peru

played the long game
The guy who did this is a real piece of shit. To kill Bhutto is one thing, but to then blow yourself up after you've shot her and take 15 other lives? What was the point?
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I'm so confused by the overall state of affairs. Could someone quickly (like in a few sentences) sum up the entire Bhutto affair? She was exiled, came back why? Why was she allowed back? So confused.
 

Azih

Member
Y2Kev said:
I'm so confused by the overall state of affairs. Could someone quickly (like in a few sentences) sum up the entire Bhutto affair? She was exiled, came back why? Why was she allowed back? So confused.

Urm, she's the daughter of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who was a Prime Minister of Pakistan and was executed.

She won the first democratic elections in a long time back in 1988, and then lost and won again in 1993. Heavy charges of corruption forced her into exile in 1996 and her husband was jailed for them.

She came back in 2007 to contest another election. She was allowed back by Musharraf as many believe there was a power sharing deal between them as Musharraf was losing his control over the judiciary .
 

SUPREME1

Banned
Y2Kev said:
I'm so confused by the overall state of affairs. Could someone quickly (like in a few sentences) sum up the entire Bhutto affair? She was exiled, came back why? Why was she allowed back? So confused.


I don't think she was 'allowed' back. She just came back.. it was her decision to make. I believe she went into exhile of her own choosing. Maybe it got a little too hot and she felt pressure to do so.. Saw that things had changed and decided to come back and maybe grab some power.

If I am off, can someone correct me.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Azih said:
Urm, she's the daughter of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who was a Prime Minister of Pakistan and was executed.

She won the first democratic elections in a long time back in 1988, and then lost and won again in 1993. Heavy charges of corruption forced her into exile in 1996 and her husband was jailed for them.

She came back in 2007 to contest another election. She was allowed back by Musharraf as many believe there was a power sharing deal between them as Musharraf was losing his control over the judiciary .

So most likely she was in cahoots with Musharraf anyway?
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Azih said:
Urm, she's the daughter of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who was a Prime Minister of Pakistan and was executed.

She won the first democratic elections in a long time back in 1988, and then lost and won again in 1993. Heavy charges of corruption forced her into exile in 1996 and her husband was jailed for them.

She came back in 2007 to contest another election. She was allowed back by Musharraf as many believe there was a power sharing deal between them as Musharraf was losing his control over the judiciary .
I'm still learning about her history. On NPR on the way into work this morning, someone was saying that her husband was never actually charged with a crime in all his time in prison, and that none of the corruption charges against her were ever proven. Was that actually the case?
 

laserbeam

Banned
Y2Kev said:
So most likely she was in cahoots with Musharraf anyway?

theres some likely truth to that since the Swiss Government found her and her husband guilty of the corruption charges and money laundering millions of dollars through swiss accounts etc. France,Poland and other countries as well are linked to corrupt practices with her government as well

All of a sudden Musharraf granted her amnesty from the charges etc and allowed her to return while she was "opposing" his ways.

Doesn't make much sense for a Military Leader to allow an opponent who is exiled and a criminal back into the country unless some under the table dealings happening
 

jobber

Would let Tony Parker sleep with his wife
Rezbit said:
Holy shit, Pakistan is a massive powderkeg right now. You know, I'm not a terribly emotional guy but this image gave me such a huge lump in my throat.

1227070945_M_122707_pakistan8.jpg


Just the anguish on his face...heartbreaking.


I want a copy of that poster on his sweater.

She looks so bad ass in that pic.
 

Azih

Member
The wiki is as good a place as any to get a background of her history. And yes no corruption charges have been proven against her or her husband in Pakistan. Edit: laserbeam is right about the other countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto#Exile

Yeah the exile was self imposed but Musharraf dropped charges to allow her back.

Y2Kev, things in Pakistan are in a crazy amount of flux. If Bhutto had won the election there would be a power sharing deal but there would be a lot of suspicion on both sides.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Azih said:
The wiki is as good a place as any to get a background of her history. And yes no corruption charges have been proven against her or her husband in Pakistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto#Exile

Yeah the exile was self imposed but Musharraf dropped charges to allow her back.

Y2Kev, things in Pakistan are in a crazy amount of flux. If Bhutto had won the election there would be a power sharing deal but there would be a lot of suspicion on both sides.
Thanks for that link, I'll read up.
 

The Stealth Fox

Junior Member
Azih said:
Whoah dude, you're angrier than the Pakistanis on this board. Kinda shows how jaded we are I guess.

Tell me about it. In belief, I am from the Sunni traditionalist camp of Islam and I am aware of the corruption of Bhutto's administration, but eh, I'm still saddened about Bhutto's death and dismayed that this was another suicide attack that cost the lives of innocent civilians. The last year has been a political cluster****. But for some reason, I'm not aching over it. It seems that the second-gen American/Euro-Pakistanis pretty much feel the same way, but the first gens that live here are all like ZOMG!

We are a jaded bunch of people, wow. It just has to do with this overall disconnectedness, I think.
 

Yixian

Banned
Azih said:
No.

Yxian, is it just the fact that she was democratically elected that makes her better in your view?

That's obviously a big part of it, in fact, that's the only credible reason I have to argue Pakistan would have been inherently better with her, but she was slightly less conservative than Musharaff on certain issues, economically she was supposedly a social democrat.

Hey I'm not saying she was a saint by any means.
 

Azih

Member
Yixian said:
That's obviously a big part of it, in fact, that's the only credible reason I have to argue Pakistan would have been inherently better with her, but she was slightly less conservative than Musharaff on certain issues, economically she was supposedly a social democrat.

Hey I'm not saying she was a saint by any means.

I'm not claiming you were. It's just that I have seen Pakistan under Bhutto and seen Pakistan under Musharraf, and man from my perspective Pakistan's been doing better under Mushurraf even though Mushurraf has had to deal with things that Bhutto never did.

TSF: Yeah I do think it has to do with the fact that we never spent much time in Pakistan.
 

Macam

Banned
Cold-Steel said:
I wonder if civil war is looming.

I don't think it is. Terrible as the news is and as unpopular as Musharaff is, no one save the extremists wants to see the country descend into civil war (let alone Western powers). Provided Musharaff doesn't go overboard, I think it's safe to say he'll remain in power with support from the Western powers, if only to prevent a civil war from occurring. I wouldn't be surprised to see more attempts by extremists to continue to destabilize the situation, but the severity of the problem is going to have everyone stepping on eggshells to try to provide stability there. Condi's going to be very, very busy.

I'm rather disappointed Bhutto didn't take further security precautions, as while by no means am I suggesting it's her fault for getting killed, I'm not sure why she opted to stand out of an armored car to wave to her supporters, particularly in light of recent history. I suspect she could've likely won a significant part of the vote in January, even had she stayed out of the public and with tight security, given the discontent with Musharaff at the moment.
 

MMaRsu

Banned
CrushDance said:
-Confirmed-


Eh it seems that she and another high ranking official have been killed, BBC and CBC are reporting it on the news right now. I honeslty didn't even know that much about her only about the problems she had in Pakistan. Well that was until my dad woke up the entire house freaking out about it -_-

Edit: Everyones confirming it now. Wasn't so sure but:



What a way to start the year :S

Offtopic but your avatar is really..something
 

SUPREME1

Banned
Is there any chance at all that the military loses ocntrol of the country?

If so, is it possible that nukes could be seized/stolen by factions with no qualms about selling them off to other parties?



?
 

Macam

Banned
ImperialConquest said:
Is there any chance at all that the military loses ocntrol of the country?

If so, is it possible that nukes could be seized/stolen by factions with no qualms about selling them off to other parties?

The nukes are well guarded and are kept apart from the delivery devices and even though Bhutto was assassinated, it's quite another thing to seize the nuclear weapons. There's a chance, yes, but I'd say it's not a terribly large one.
 

RumFore

Banned
Surprised no one has blamed Bush yet. Pakistan more than any country scares the shit out of me. They have Nukes and you don't really know who the hell is in charge and now this.
 

Yixian

Banned
ImperialConquest said:
Is there any chance at all that the military loses ocntrol of the country?

If so, is it possible that nukes could be seized/stolen by factions with no qualms about selling them off to other parties?

It'd take an all out civil war to bring down the army, but even in the midst of that the nuclear bases would be guarded better than fucking Lahore, they'd never get stolen.

I don't really know how likely a civil war is... if this leads to street violence, and other factions use that as an opportunity to run havoc, you could see a military crackdown that leads to an anti-government "movement", but not a revolution. I mean who is there that could unite the country? Fundamentalists haven't united anyone under islam, they just splinter off into smaller and smaller groups all the time, but there's enough of that sentiment to make it impossible for the PPP.


I reckon you're just gonna see lots of violence, and a big big military crackdown, with Pakistan become a lot more closed and dictatorial.
 
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