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[Marty Chinn]

What's with the interrogation?

Because I care about game preservation and he hasn't been clear about what happens to the ROM after he gets the checksum.

 

[SpiceMelange]

Because I care about game preservation and he hasn't been clear about what happens to the ROM after he gets the checksum.

Why does it matter? In both scenarios no one but Byuu would ever interact with that dumped ROM database.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Because I care about game preservation and he hasn't been clear about what happens to the ROM after he gets the checksum.

The cartridges are sent back to the owner, that's all that matters.

 

[Bendo]

But it is necessary to have a copy of the ROM for preservation. Simply having the checksum data isn't preservation. It's great for validation but validation is no good if there isn't a preserved copy out there stored somewhere, especially as rarer carts die. If nobody actually dumps that cart properly and stores it in a way that can be retrieved, that game could be lost forever.

It's necessary for someone to preserve the ROM, but that someone should be an organization that actually has the standing to do preservation in a legal manner, like archive.org or similar. By verifying ROMs and releasing the checksums he's opening the door for someone else to do proper preservation without necessarily having to spend time/money on verification.

 

[Mandoric]

But it is necessary to have a copy of the ROM for preservation. Simply having the checksum data isn't preservation. It's great for validation but validation is no good if there isn't a preserved copy out there stored somewhere, especially as rarer carts die. If nobody actually dumps that cart properly and stores it in a way that can be retrieved, that game could be lost forever.

I'm not discounting the other stuff you're doing, but one key thing to preservation is actually preserving the ROM itself. The thing you haven't been clear about in any of the messages I've seen is you still haven't firmly stated you are deleting the ROM after you've obtained the checksum. Are you deleting the ROM or are you preserving it in an archive you have access to even if you aren't publically making those ROMs available?

Given the legal issues at play, isn't it safest to first make checksums available, and then only release (or even admit to storing) data if an accurate ROM isn't generally available?

Put more simply, why put your neck on the line immediately when you can wait and see whether someone else releases a fully-matching GoodSNES 3.28?

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Because I care about game preservation and he hasn't been clear about what happens to the ROM after he gets the checksum.

And if you thought about this for five seconds you'd know why.

 

[Marty Chinn]

And if you thought about this for five seconds you'd know why.

I have thought about it. I wanted clarification because it leads into my next question of if you do have the ROM but they aren't made available in some way, that's not exactly game preservation because they are inaccessible. I care that somehow some organization is able to archive these so that they are not lost and while he's taking steps to help validate things, it still needs to be actually preserved. He's also saying he's doing this legally which would have to imply that he's deleting the ROM afterward but he hasn't said what's done with the ROM. It seems like from you and everyone else responding, you guys think he is keeping the ROM illegally.

 

[FyreWulff]

Because I care about game preservation and he hasn't been clear about what happens to the ROM after he gets the checksum.

Spend 10 minutes thinking why people interested in preservation would not want to endanger a preservation effort. Remember, some companies involved still think of emulation as illegal when it's been proven in court time and time again that emulators are legal.

Byuu has made the only 100% accurate SNES emulator in existence, just to make sure the SNES is preserved properly. Rest assured, byuu is on the side of preservation.

 

[Harmen]

Wait what, so if the delivery service fucks up in the worst way possible, the consumer has no right unless they were insured? Pretty sure that in the Netherlands that would not be the case.

 

[Cheerilee]

I'm not sure I'd call it "inferior quality" as long as it checks out,

I meant in comparison to byuu's new process, which is more accurate than the way SNES ROMs have been made since SNES copying started.

Nintendo uses standard ROMs in their Virtual Console service (likely downloaded from the internet). If Nintendo suddenly starts using new, superior ROMs after byuu's friend rolls out his new tools, then byuu is making SNES preservation better for everyone.

But it is necessary to have a copy of the ROM for preservation. Simply having the checksum data isn't preservation. It's great for validation but validation is no good if there isn't a preserved copy out there stored somewhere, especially as rarer carts die. If nobody actually dumps that cart properly and stores it in a way that can be retrieved, that game could be lost forever.

It is not necessary for byuu to maintain a collection of every SNES game ever made, and then get arrested for piracy by distributing those copies.

byuu is creating a new standard. byuu's friend is making the next generation of SNES game copiers. People are going to buy those copiers and build their own collection of legal backups. That's a large degree of preservation right there.

It's basically an inevitability that some people are going to trade illegal backups amongst themselves, and in a very short amount of time the entire SNES library is going to be re-pirated. That's everything you're suggesting that byuu needs to do. But the thing is, byuu doesn't need to be the one to do that.

Personally, I wouldn't even care if byuu does cross that line (I see no harm in it), but doing so would make him the target of authorities (even if Nintendo is secretly looking forward to byuu's work, if byuu became a pirate, Nintendo would be forced to go after him) and admitting to piracy on NeoGAF would get him banned, and neither of those is something that I'd like to see happen.

I have thought about it. I wanted clarification because it leads into my next question of if you do have the ROM but they aren't made available in some way, that's not exactly game preservation because they are inaccessible. I care that somehow some organization is able to archive these so that they are not lost and while he's taking steps to help validate things, it still needs to be actually preserved. He's also saying he's doing this legally which would have to imply that he's deleting the ROM afterward but he hasn't said what's done with the ROM. It seems like from you and everyone else responding, you guys think he is keeping the ROM illegally.

I've answered straight questions about piracy in the past, and provided visual proof that I'm not a pirate, but I'm sometimes sorry that I have, because that denial puts a burden on others to similarly prove their innocence.

Please stop asking byuu to confirm that he's not a pirate. That's an accusation of piracy, and used to be a bannable offense.

 

[SpiceMelange]

He's also saying he's doing this legally which would have to imply that he's deleting the ROM afterward

I'm pretty sure what's illegal is the distribution, you can archive a personal backup, no judge would ever hold you against that.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I'm pretty sure what's illegal is the distribution, you can archive a personal backup, no judge would ever hold you against that.

A personal backup refers to backing up the original which you own and are in possession of. He's stated he sells the cartridges when he's done with them, so that's no longer a personal backup at that point.

 

[SpiceMelange]

A personal backup refers to backing up the original which you own and are in possession of. He's stated he sells the cartridges when he's done with them, so that's no longer a personal backup at that point.

OK but again, why do you care? His archival collection will either never be public or be destroyed. In both situations a public repository of snes rom / archival is not happening, so why even bring that up?

 

[EviLore]

Because I care about game preservation and he hasn't been clear about what happens to the ROM after he gets the checksum.

Sounds like you've firmly established your own personal guidelines for game preservation, then, which you can continue to carry out yourself. We'll move on from the interrogation now.

 

[Mandoric]

I meant in comparison to byuu's new process, which is more accurate than the way SNES ROMs have been made since SNES copying started.

Nintendo uses standard ROMs in their Virtual Console service (likely downloaded from the internet). If Nintendo suddenly starts using new, superior ROMs after byuu's friend rolls out his new tools, then byuu is making SNES preservation better for everyone.

This may be my misunderstanding of the exact details, but from the descriptions I've read it seems like the advantages are known-good data plus more useful metadata about the mapping?

(IOW, assuming Nintendo got a good dump and the semicustom emulator handles any hiccups, is it 'superior'? As opposed to being a meta advantage to verify a good dump and remove the need for per-title special cases)

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I have not. I don't think I could manage sleeping somewhere else with a bunch of probes hooked up to me. I'd be wide awake the entire night most likely. It already takes me 2-3 hours to fall asleep after laying down in my own bed.

But, it probably is a good idea.

They have devices you can take home now, and sleep in your own bed. It like clips onto your finger and records data as you sleep, you return it to them the next day and they analyze it. I don't know what part of NJ you're in but if you're relatively close to Morristown there's a sleep study center there that can do it. If you have health care it usually just takes a prescription from your doctor to get it done and health care usually covers it.

 

[petran79]

A personal backup refers to backing up the original which you own and are in possession of. He's stated he sells the cartridges when he's done with them, so that's no longer a personal backup at that point.

The true owner would be the one that has the original receipt from the store, assuming store still exists. If even the receipt is lost, no one can claim ownership.
Second hand sales usually do not inform taxation authorities, so any one can claim anything.

 

[DarthButcher]

Those boxes need to be altered in photshop to say "SNES Games."

 

[reggieandTFE]

I used to work for ups. Those of you thinking they're taking better care of your package are nuts. Ups makes most of its money from bulk shippers that do huge volume every night; they don't care at all about individual retail packages. We were directed to just throw those on top of the walls in the truck at the end of the night.

 

[stan423321]

It's not necessary at all. Nor is it ever necessary to give any games out to anyone.

All I have to do is record the SHA256 sum of the ROM image while the cart is in my possession.

There are no known collisions for the much weaker SHA1 yet. SHA256 is substantially stronger. That means that knowing the SHA256 of an SNES game, NOBODY can make a fake version that has the same checksum right now. So if they have the original game, my database will confirm it for them. If they have one that's been modified, it'll do that too by not having a match in the DB.

I imagine this is a terrible time to ask this, but what data is subject to your hashing? My understanding is that SNES memory map has some dedicated slots for ROM chips in the cart, but unlike, say, GameBoy Advance, where cartridge not going anywhere else is enforced by hardware, SNES does give the cartridge entire address bus, so even ignoring bank mapping and such, carts can map data into "system area" as long as they don't collide with existing SNES hardware - or is that that SNES weeds out internal hardware accesses in very small pieces of address space and cartridges can actually contain stuff mapped to where SNES RAM is, it's just that SNES won't access that? I don't know, you're the SNES expert here.

What I'm aiming at is - your scheme is protected against hash algorithms gradually failing, but it's not protected against someone finding out that there is more to SNES cartridges than we thought there is. So does community know enough to rule this possibility out?

 

[byuu]

As I keep saying, with the SHA256 sums I have provided, people can verify that their own images are legitimate or not, but only for the carts I have dumped. So as you can see, this only really works perfectly if I have a complete database.

Let's face facts, with the exception of new ROM revisions and corrupted data, everything has been out there since 1998, long before I ever got started.

When it comes to the new revisions, I send those physical cartridges along to other collectors who then send me their revisions (as a perfectly legal trade of physical goods), and they can do whatever they want, it's not up to me and I don't want to know. I've never given out those new revisions once they were discovered, and I have no idea if any groups even paid attention to them existing. It's possible those two aren't preserved now, but the hashes are. So when someone else dumps them in the future, they can verify their dumps against what I found.

So when I sold my USA set, I sold it with the 1.0 revision carts, and someone else now has the new 1.1 revision carts. The beauty is that I have SHA256 verifications of both revisions as a result of this.

So I'm sorry, but it's quite possible a few of my dumps will end up lost to history. All I can do is document that they exist. It's up to other people to do whatever they want with that knowledge.

I imagine this is a terrible time to ask this, but what data is subject to your hashing?

The entire ROM, including coprocessor firmware. I also log the PCB identifier, and have a separate database that describes the PCB layout and memory mapping. Combining the two allows for bit-perfect, verified emulation.

Board database is here: https://preservation.byuu.org/Boards

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I used to work for ups. Those of you thinking they're taking better care of your package are nuts. Ups makes most of its money from bulk shippers that do huge volume every night; they don't care at all about individual retail packages. We were directed to just throw those on top of the walls in the truck at the end of the night.

USPS, not UPS

 

[Fox the Sly]

For anyone wondering, USPS is aware of the high profile nature of this incident and seems to have fire lit under them moreso that I normally see which is good. I don't have any specific details, but they do seem to be actively investigating.

Fingers crossed!

Also, someone mentioned how the shipping label seems to be on thin wrapping paper. I notice this a lot with packages coming from Mexico (usually animal feed) and yeah, that stuff get ripped easily. Nevermind that mail handlers can be rough with packages on top of that.

 

[SmiteOfHand]

Also, someone mentioned how the shipping label seems to be on thin wrapping paper. I notice this a lot with packages coming from Mexico (usually animal feed) and yeah, that stuff get ripped easily. Nevermind that mail handlers can be rough with packages on top of that.

The optimistic side of me wants to believe this is the case. The label ripped off and the box is just sitting somewhere and will take a while to figure out where it ended up. Eventual happy ending. Credits roll. Etc...

We'll see. Those massive routing machines can easily put a box and a ripped off label far apart very quickly.

 

[LinkSlayer64]

USPS, not UPS

He is stating that people suggesting UPS over USPS to take better care of the package are wrong, that they do not take better care.

 

[jacobeid]

The USPS makes my job a living hell and I work for the government. They're fucking incompetent at every single level. This doesn't surprise me in the slightest given how often they lose our stuff (roughly 5-10% of everything we mail. Awful).

 

[PrimeBeef]

USPS, not UPS

That's his point. He's saying the private carriers are not better or do not handle packages better.

 

[PrimeBeef]

The USPS makes my job a living hell and I work for the government. They're fucking incompetent at every single level. This doesn't surprise me in the slightest given how often they lose our stuff (roughly 5-10% of everything we mail. Awful).

Very doubtful.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

He is stating that people suggesting UPS over USPS to take better care of the package are wrong, that they do not take better care.

That's his point. He's saying the private carriers are not better or do not handle packages better.

Oops sorry I get it now

 

[Borman]

Huge update, they've been found and recovered! https://byuu.org/emulation/preservation/found-package/

 

[Skyzard]

Surprising!

Nice.

 

[2blackcats]

Happy ending.

 

[dancrane212]

Huge update, they've been found and recovered! https://byuu.org/emulation/preservation/found-package/

Fantastic!

 

[Durante]

Nice.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Holy shit. Amazing. Great news. They look gorgeous.

The people who donated are awesome, too.

 

[Sealtest]

Really happy they were found! And reading through your updates it's really sad they didn't reply back to you until they started seeing the news articles.

 

[Fhtagn]

Huge update, they've been found and recovered! https://byuu.org/emulation/preservation/found-package/

Ooooh, nice! What a relief that must be!

I'll take any happy news where I can get it these days haha!

 

[sixteen-bit]

Huge update, they've been found and recovered! https://byuu.org/emulation/preservation/found-package/

Neat.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Very happy for you and the donator byuu

 

[Resilient]

Thank fuck!

 

[Assanova]

I wonder if they were stolen/hidden and then returned when whoever did it started to feel heat.

 

[Nyoro SF]

Huge update, they've been found and recovered! https://byuu.org/emulation/preservation/found-package/

Wow, that is very surprising! I'm glad it all worked out in the end.

 

[EatinOlives]

Amazing! Glad it worked out

 

[Spade]

Good to hear! Very glad this ended well.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I wonder if they were stolen/hidden and then returned when whoever did it started to feel heat.

I too like baseless conspiracy theories

hope they learned their lesson about usps

 

[JCG]

Great news. I hope measures will be taken to reduce the risk of this happening again.

 

[John Kowalski]

yay

 

[linkboy]

Glad to hear they found the games.

 

[SheHateMe]

Huge update, they've been found and recovered! https://byuu.org/emulation/preservation/found-package/

EXCELLENT.

Whew. I was worried there for a while.

 

[davidwhangchoi]

Huge update, they've been found and recovered! https://byuu.org/emulation/preservation/found-package/

sucks you had to get media coverage or they wouldn't have helped you.