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[Cosmo Clock 21]

Agreed.

Surprised to see GAF so interested in this. Can't believe this is the same GAF that had that meme of a Firefox tab open when a screencap was taken. We have grown up!

"Grown up"? Just look at some of the replies in this thread. This is why Capcom can't straight up say Poison is transgender.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Personally, I'm fine with leaving Poison ambiguous. It's a practical decision is all and shouldn't have to be over-explained.

Folks seem to forget that part of Poison's character is a stage persona - she* dresses and acts that way for promotion, so leaving her birth gender unknown is in a sense part of the act. It's a pro wrestling thing.


*I use "she" regardless of Poison's supposed real gender since the -character- Poison uses is female.

 

[Bowling Pin]

Incidentally, Garcian Smith is probably the best black character I've seen in a game, because he's not defined by his race at all. He's just badass, period.

Garcian is defined by his race, or at least his function in the game necessitates that he -not- be a Caucasian or East Asian.

Spoiler

Late in the game, he's shown (either metaphorically, metaphysically, literally, or a combination of the three) blowing Harman and Kun Lun away. He's supposed to be an American, trained by the Japanese as a sleeper agent. In the epilogue, he can casually choose whether Japan or the United States is eradicated off the face of the earth. Keeping all that in mind, Garican/Emir is supposed to be a character who, in the end, isn't beholden to either western or eastern ideals. In light of the unending geopolitical conflict between east and west, he's the one man above it all, and the one man who (for the time being) ends it. Hence, he is (presumably) African American.

 

[ElFly]

It's not a case of whether I'm for or against it at all. I just think it's a pointless topic to be getting up in arms about. This is not a narrative focused genre. If poison is a chick with a dick, transgender, a drag queen or the second coming of the flying spaghetti monster doesn't change anything.

If it was a main or even supporting character in a game series that had some semblance of a cohesive story it might make sense to be upset, but as the OP has pointed out, poison is not the only character that has seen changes for no good reason at all. It's a fighting game series..not the best place articulate social commentary.

I just cannot fathom the transgender community being so desperate for recognition that the fact that poisons status is not clearly defined is such an issue. If you consider her to be transgender, then you can continue to do so nobody is taking that away from you. Likewise, if you have always considered her to be 100% female (as the Japanese always have) you can also continue to do so.

Last time I checked, their hasn't been any posters of poison at any gay pride march that I've seen so all this talk of her being some kind of representative icon is overblown rubbish.

Of course it's not an important character that has a story arc in this game.

But just the inclusion of a TG character in a fighting game is important in that makes them more normal and acceptable to the population at large, as well as outing the crazios who feel threatened by her presence.

 

[Red Liquorice]

I love the "you can think Poison is whatever you like, BUT THE JAPANESE THINK SHE IS 100% FEMALE AND ALWAYS HAVE!!!!1!" replies.

 

[ihearthawthats]

Personally, I wish Capcom would just confirm Poison as being %100 female.
I dont have a problem with transexual people, but I cant really relate to their situation either. Characters have to have a certain appeal for me to use them in games. I never use characters like Honda, Fuerte or Makoto because they are just irrelvant to me. Similar to how a transexual character would be.
Im trying to be honest and diplomatic. Not sure if its working out.

so you want poison to be 100% female, honda to be skinny, fuerte to be white, and makoto to have big boobs?

character variety is a good thing and so is trying to please different audiences. are you the type of person that actually likes to see 9 shotos in one game?

 

[corporate cheerleader]

If Capcom tells exactly what Poison is, be it always-female or male to female, then there is nothing interesting left to discuss about that underdeveloped character. Well, besides the obvious "DID HUGO TAP DAT ASS SHE SO THICK GATDAMN.

" I'd say their answer is perfect, so there will still be plenty of bloodshed and flaming in the coming years between the overzealous fact checkers, monkey spankers and the bigotry accusers when Poison discussions rear its head. I'll be there enjoying them from the sidelines, though. Cheers!

 

[Arozay]

It's a fighting game, since when has anyone cared about the clusterfuck of a story or character backstory that gets retconned all the time. Nothing will change from however the decision goes, maybe a win-quote or two.

And who picks their character based on gender, pretty sure it's more important the character doesn't play like dogshit.

 

[Terareflection]

It's a fighting game, since when has anyone cared about the clusterfuck of a story or character backstory that gets retconned all the time. Nothing will change from however the decision goes, maybe a win-quote or two.

And who picks their character based on gender, pretty sure it's more important the character doesn't play like dogshit.

Well, there is all those guys in the Marvel thread whining about the lack of female characters. And I am one of those shallow people who picks their characters based on looks rather than playstyle.

 

[HisshouBuraiKen]

What exactly are the win quotes in question here?

 

[Dr.Palutena]

And who picks their character based on gender, pretty sure it's more important the character doesn't play like dogshit.

I'd say their are a lot of people who choose their characters based on looks just as much as play style. while not playing like dogshit is more important looks (and therefore external appearance in terms of sex) do play an important role. Though that really has nothing to do with this point due to the fact poison looks female whether she's pre-op, post-op or 100%.

 

[sixteen-bit]

What exactly are the win quotes in question here?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31703071&postcount=21

 

[Moaradin]

They should give Poison a Doctor Girlfriend voice. Now that will really confuse people.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

They should give Poison a Doctor Girlfriend voice. Now that will really confuse people.

Going down to the depths of Bioware's worst is rarely advised.

 

[Finaika]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31703071&postcount=21

Best win quote ever.

EDIT: I love how the avatar matches the quote.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Well, I'm not going to lie, the first time I played Chun Li wasn't because I knew how she played.

Of course I was also 15.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Of course it's not an important character that has a story arc in this game.

But just the inclusion of a TG character in a fighting game is important in that makes them more normal and acceptable to the population at large, as well as outing the crazios who feel threatened by her presence.

See this is the thing that makes no sense to me. I just cannot see how being in a fighting game, with minimal character development and no aesthetic or gameplay changes regardless of her gender is going to effect the general population. It makes no difference either way except to a extreme sub section of a subsection of a subsection of the population. ( videogame enthusiasts, who play fighting games, who are transgender, who actual care)

At least as a main character in a game with a complete and coherent story arc, some of the misgivings and stereotypes about TS could be cleared up and she could be written in such a way even people who have bigoted views could emphasise and understand the life of of a transgendered person.

Personally, video games by and large are not the format for that kind of progressive content in the first place simply because the medium is not the best for telling effective stories. But even if you do accept that you can tell good stories within the medium, a capcom fighting game is by far the worst to try. We are barely above tetris in the story department.

There seems to be a lot of projecting here. Rather than look at this as, "oh does it make sense to have this discussion here, will it lead to greater dialogue" it's more like "oh wow, poison is TS, my very existence is validated" which is a ridiculous notion to have for any minority not just TS.

I have nothing against LGBT characters in video games or in other media. I just think it's a waste of time here to have definitive answer here because wheather poison is is male or female, it will not change the way the game is in any significant way. It's not like capcom is suddenly going to be going to gay pride marches or creating intros about how painful it can be to wake up every morning as a man in a woman's body.

If there is such thing as a war on intolerance, this is effectively the battle of what brand of shoe polish you use on your boots before the battle for a major city. It's pointless and insignificant and only is a talking point for online forums and blogs. Beleive it or not, the majority of FG players don't play them for the backstory, they play for playstyles.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Well, I'm not going to lie, the first time I played Chun Li wasn't because I knew how she played.

Of course I was also 15.

The amount of thigh she showed should have been illegal! I remember picking her for that reason too.

 

[jorgeton]

See this is the thing that makes no sense to me.

Yeah, I can see that. Unless you're trans or part of an underrepresented or marginalized group, you probably won't "get" why having a transgender character in a fighter is commendable and to some people, important. Lots of heterosexual male privilege on display in this thread, but I am not surprised.

And the assertion that people choose their fighting game characters solely on playstyle is false. I know countless people who have picked a character because they looked cool, or were a girl, or some other physical trait. That's what initially draws them in, then they get to the business of learning how to play as the character.

 

[LiK]

The amount of thigh she showed should have been illegal! I remember picking her for that reason too.

every straight guy picked her for that reason.

Spoiler

guilty as charged

 

[mollipen]

See this is the thing that makes no sense to me. I just cannot see how being in a fighting game, with minimal character development and no aesthetic or gameplay changes regardless of her gender is going to effect the general population. It makes no difference either way except to a extreme sub section of a subsection of a subsection of the population. ( videogame enthusiasts, who play fighting games, who are transgender, who actual care)

It's about exposure. Maybe you think it's insignificant, but it isn't. Would it be better to have a well-written main character who is trans? Sure! Guess what - that's not going to happen, at least not yet. What can happen, right now, is for Capcom to state unequivocally that Poison is transgender, and that would be a step. Until we have small steps, we can't have big ones, because nobody is willing to stick their neck out that far.

It's like how you had maybe had a side character in a TV show be gay every now and then, but not very prominently and not very often. And then, in the middle of her show's run, Ellen comes out as gay on the show. It was already an established show, so it wasn't trying to launch itself as being a show with a gay main character. But that event no doubt set the groundwork enough so that Will & Grace could be tried, a show were they did launch right off the bat telling you that two of the four main characters were gay. And now, while some people still do get bent out of shape about it, that concept - of having a gay or lesbian main character - isn't the taboo that it was before. But had those steps not happened in progression, later steps might not have - at least, not back at that point in time.

Yes, it's hard for people outside of the whole transgender issue to understand why this is so important to those who are. But that lack of ability to understand doesn't mean that the side who want Poison to be trans or wrong, or that they're silly for wanting what they want.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

It's about exposure. Maybe you think it's insignificant, but it isn't. Would it be better to have a well-written main character who is trans? Sure! Guess what - that's not going to happen, at least not yet. What can happen, right now, is for Capcom to state unequivocally that Poison is transgender, and that would be a step. Until we have small steps, we can't have big ones, because nobody is willing to stick their neck out that far.

It's like how you had maybe had a side character in a TV show be gay every now and then, but not very prominently and not very often. And then, in the middle of her show's run, Ellen comes out as gay on the show. It was already an established show, so it wasn't trying to launch itself as being a show with a gay main character. But that event no doubt set the groundwork enough so that Will & Grace could be tried, a show were they did launch right off the bat telling you that two of the four main characters were gay. And now, while some people still do get bent out of shape about it, that concept - of having a gay or lesbian main character - isn't the taboo that it was before. But had those steps not happened in progression, later steps might not have - at least, not back at that point in time.

Yes, it's hard for people outside of the whole transgender issue to understand why this is so important to those who are. But that lack of ability to understand doesn't mean that the side who want Poison to be trans or wrong, or that they're silly for wanting what they want.

But as ive stated many times, its not of case of "should poison be transgender because that has been the common perception" but rather "Is a fighting game the best place to be pushing for transgender representation?" while I can agree, capcom shouldn't flip flop on the issue like they have, what you are asking for has minimal artistic payoff and could actually have negative repercussions regardless of whether you think that is right or not.

I honestly think poison should be seen as transgender, but I also see no reason why people should feel up in arms that rather than giving a clear answer either way, capcom would rather walk the middle ground. There is little to be gained from a business or artistic point of view to take a hard stance here. Nobody wants dissenting voices to be ignored or unheard but realistically, the amount of people concerned about this is minimal. As I have already pointed out, there are much more vocal issues with capcoms current game output that have much more vocal opposition with much larger support that by and large are being completely ignored.

Comparing poison to ellen or will and grace ignores the fact that for some, poison has been trans for 20 years. this isn't the first game she has appeared in since final fight and its not even the first fighting game where she is playable. It hasn't made a damn bit of difference so far so the line of thinking that she will somehow pave the way for trans characters in videogames or other media is wishful thinking at best and delusion at worse. If anything, it illustrates my point, that to take a stand on an issue like this, you have to use a vehicle that people can relate to and follow regardless of gender and orientation. Ellen could not of come out in the way she did if she was not seen as charismatic, relateable and interesting regardless of her orientation.

Poison, man or woman, is still the same one dimensional character because fighting games level little if no room for character development. Any love for poison as a transgender character is simple projection, not because there is anything endearing about her. Its just ticking a box. She is exactly the same either way, and that is why I feel it is a total non issue.

 

[Mista Koo]

I'm wondering how would you want them to say that in the game? Aren't MTFs supposed to be referred to and called women? (and that's what they prefer?).
Wouldn't it be offensive to have to specify that she is a transgender? Is she going to say that in her quotes?

 

[Cowie]

Poison, man or woman, is still the same one dimensional character because fighting games level little if no room for character development. Any love for poison as a transgender character is simple projection, not because there is anything endearing about her. Its just ticking a box. She is exactly the same either way, and that is why I feel it is a total non issue.

Out of curiosity, would you extend that same logic to Chun-li? Her introduction in SF2 was pretty one dimensional.

Not that the circumstances are identical, but would you honestly say that little ol' one dimensional chun-li had no impact on the representation of women in video games?

 

[mollipen]

But as ive stated many times, its not of case of "should poison be transgender because that has been the common perception" but rather "Is a fighting game the best place to be pushing for transgender representation?" while I can agree, capcom shouldn't flip flop on the issue like they have, what you are asking for has minimal artistic payoff and could actually have negative repercussions regardless of whether you think that is right or not.

I feel like I've said this a hundred times already, but: there aren't any other options out there to fight for. Poison is it, really, in terms of characters that (a) have exposure, and (b) are playable. It doesn't matter if a fight game is the best place to do it—it's currently the only place this argument can even happen, until some other company has the guts to attempt the issue.

And I don't know—I think fighting games are a great place to bring the issue up, because it's a game where she can be a major, playable character yet also not force the character on the player. I'm not sure that players are ready for that yet.

Comparing poison to ellen or will and grace ignores the fact that for some, poison has been trans for 20 years. this isn't the first game she has appeared in since final fight and its not even the first fighting game where she is playable.

This is the first time she's been playable for a Western audience and in a major title—Final Fight Revenge had neither of those qualities, and thus the discussion with her actually being a legitimate character was never able to happen before now.

 

[charlequin]

And I don't know—I think fighting games are a great place to bring the issue up, because it's a game where she can be a major, playable character yet also not force the character on the player.

Yeah, actually fighting games have huge advantages in terms of representing demographics and character types that are ill-served elsewhere:

• Huge casts with no single "main" character so there's room for some "different" characters
• A need to distinguish characters from one another giving good reason for striking visual differences
• Storylines that are accessible yet unimportant mean you can present a character's "deal" quickly but nobody really has to care that much about it if they don't like it
• People get really invested in their favorite characters in a fighting game, so targeting a small demographic can get you some really dedicated fans

If someone tried to release a shooter with a transgender main character they'd immediately be drowned in (idiotic) complaints about why they were "forcing a transgender character down everyone's throats," but in a fighting game you can easily include a single character without suddenly making it the only thing about your game people talk about.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Out of curiosity, would you extend that same logic to Chun-li? Her introduction in SF2 was pretty one dimensional.

Not that the circumstances are identical, but would you honestly say that little ol' one dimensional chun-li had no impact on the representation of women in video games?

considering she was not the first female character in video games, and wasn't even a lead like samus, no i do not think she served a significant impact.

 

[DR2K]

considering she was not the first female character in video games, and wasn't even a lead like samus, no i do not think she served a significant impact.

Most people don't even associate female with Samus.

 

[Finaika]

Most people don't even associate female with Samus.

The baby.

 

[Bowling Pin]

Like, literally the only other game I can think of with a confirmed transgender character that isn't treated like a fucking joke is this visual novel called Moonshine.

I'm a straight male and I don't personally know any transgender/transsexual people in my life, but I'm horrified at the thought of waking up one day and finding out I'm trapped in a body that I know isn't mine, with everyone convinced I'm brought the problem on myself. I have a ton of empathy and respect for the transgender community, and some of the comments I've read on Poison throughout the internet (not necessarily this thread), were so ignorant and repugnant I have literally been brought to tears.

The interview was great, but even though I understand their concerns, I'm still disappointed Capcom doesn't have the courage to say, "yes, this character is a male-to-female transgender" and still have to kowtow to bigots.

 

[Pinko Marx]

What about that chick(dude) from Nier?

 

[Finaika]

Or that chick(dude) from Guilty Gear?

 

[Master Milk]

Or that chick(dude) from Guilty Gear?

Dizzy only has those parts in fan art.

 

[mollipen]

What about that chick(dude) from Nier?

Hermaphrodite, and I don't think it's something the character is happy about. (But to be fair, I've not played the game yet.)

Or that chick(dude) from Guilty Gear?

Cross dresser, and not by choice. I don't think it's ever been said that Bridget wants to be a girl, just that that's how he grew up and thus, to him, dressing and acting like that is what he sees as "normal".

 

[Platy]

Most people don't even associate female with the metroid robot.

fixed =P

Or that chick(dude) from Guilty Gear?

It is specificaly stated that bridget's mission in the game is to prove his manliness :

He was born in a village in England where the birth of twins of the same gender was considered bad luck, and hence his family named and raised him as a girl. When he became older, he decided that he would prove his worth and his masculinity by becoming a bounty hunter.

but a person can dream, right ? =P

But yeah, besides the already said spoiler about that ps3 game or Birdo, poison is the only known transgender character in a game, and outside some random mario sports game, she will be the first trully playable transgender character in a big game

edit: ... or the Paper Mario's Vivian controversy =P

 

[sixteen-bit]

Poison talk on iPlayWinner's Frame Trap show right now
http://www.twitch.tv/iplaywinner/

 

[Platy]

Poison talk on iPlayWinner's Frame Trap show right now
http://www.twitch.tv/iplaywinner/

reading the coments on the streaming makes me hate mankind =|

also makes me think that capcom doing a "will not comment" on this is way more brave than just a "she is cisgender, end of story" comment =P

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Poison talk on iPlayWinner's Frame Trap show right now
http://www.twitch.tv/iplaywinner/

Not going to give them a click, from what I've heard from other people these folks only reinforce my negative impressions of the majority portion of the fighting game community.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Not going to give them a click, from what I've heard from other people these folks only reinforce my negative impressions of the majority portion of the fighting game community.

That's a shame. 'dosh thought it was alright.

 

[mollipen]

Not going to give them a click, from what I've heard from other people these folks only reinforce my negative impressions of the majority portion of the fighting game community.

I thought Jared's comments on Poison and the whole situation were absolutely positive and mature, and I much appreciated the stance he took.

 

[Cowie]

considering she was not the first female character in video games, and wasn't even a lead like samus, no i do not think she served a significant impact.

Samus got away with being female because she hid behind an androgynous spacesuit, and the only time she was allowed to be plainly female was when they threw her out in a bikini.

I mean, if you genuinely don't think Chun-li is relevant to women in games then at least you're consistent, but...

 

[Mr Jared]

Not going to give them a click, from what I've heard from other people these folks only reinforce my negative impressions of the majority portion of the fighting game community.

Funny enough, I don't exactly blame you for thinking this. My girlfriend and I have debates on an almost weekly basis on the overall demeanor and representation of the fighting game community. It's pretty freaking rough and quite honestly, I don't really care to defend it.

Which is why I moved into community management and why I'm so outspoken on subjects like this within the FGC. I don't care if people blow me up on Twitter about it, call me whatever names in the chat.. That doesn't affect me in the slightest. My hope is that by (hopefully) being a voice of reason and tolerance within the community, it'll give a voice to other like-minded folks and can slowly begin to turn the tide on the admittedly ignorant culture it unfortunately tends to produce.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I'm certainly glad to hear that I'm mistaken and just jumped to conclusions then. I'll give the show a listen.

 

[Bowling Pin]

What about that chick(dude) from Nier?

Or that chick(dude) from Guilty Gear?

I think the fact that we're confusing transgenders for hermaphrodites and cis-gendered crossdressers is a good enough reason to keep including characters like Poison in games.