That's pretty much Cap in a nutshell. Like when he went against authority to save a bunch of prisoners in WW2, then came back with them and immediately submitted himself for disciplinary action. The dude does what he thinks is right to save lives.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Captain America: Civil War SPOILER Thread - #TeamThanos
- Thread starter Son Of D
- Start date
- Status
That's pretty much Cap in a nutshell. Like when he went against authority to save a bunch of prisoners in WW2, then came back with them and immediately submitted himself for disciplinary action. The dude does what he thinks is right to save lives.
Sharon Carter.
"Plant yourself like a tree and say 'no, you move'".
Funeral scene. She said that was something Peggy told her.
While I agree in principle as an outsider, the strongest reason I side with Cap is probably that if I put myself in his shoes, I can't imagine feeling right about not fighting for what I believe to be a just cause. And that's why him giving up the shield and accepting life as a vigilante felt so right. He can't work in the system anymore but he obviously can't stop being a hero either.
Zantetsuken
Member
"Can you move your seat up?"
MHWilliams
Member
Why not? The UN can't come in and tell you what to do as a private citizen. To get around that, you'd need some sort of forced conscription of those with powers. As in, what stops the UN from doing the same to... say Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, or Daredevil?
Ultimately, it will always end up this way:
At best, the Avengers will eventually add a character like Henry Peter Gyrich there and he'll be their UN liaison. At worst, they'll eventually be corrupt or try to run the Avengers like any normal government agency. It never turns out well.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
They were in jail because they were clearing the name of an innocent man that #teamdumbass was trying to have executed on sight.
VW scene was the best. Especially them both smiling and giving cap the nod.
That song came back in the trailer and my girlfriend immediately looked it up. Apparently it was pretty catchy.
Except, as I said, broke people out of jail that were, in fact, criminals.
Tony is under a ton of stress and swamped in guilt for the duration of the movie. He created Ultron. Sokovia is his fault. He didn't listen to Steve, and now the Avengers have been torn apart. He has always had major issues about the loss of his parents.
The movie set up Tony's final breakdown absolutely beautifully. Like he said to Cap: "He killed my mom." Tony constantly tries to do the right thing, and it's been blowing up in his face since his weapons ended up in the hands of terrorists. Time to let higher reason take a break and focus on the man who murdered his parents. He just snapped.
blankempathy
Member
Pretty sure he was brought in the first time and wasn't executed...
bananafactory
Banned
Just saw it
I've been chastising people comparing it to BvS but mannnnnn it's so hard not to now....
I've been chastising people comparing it to BvS but mannnnnn it's so hard not to now....
I honestly didn't see anything particularly egregious. I'll keep an eye out on my next watch though.
Not "omg this movie sucks" but moments like "that's some obvious cg...".
One was a truck driving (I believe in the beginning).... I was like huh, why is that cg?
boothisman.gif
DryEyeRelief
Member
Better than AoU
JackBauer24
Member
Did we along with Tony find out that Steve knew that The Winter Soldier killed his parents? Can't remember this in the previous movies. I can still side with Cap because he knows that's not what Bucky would do I mean since Winter Soldier, Bucky essentially hid. If he truly was evil, he would have continued on the same path as he was on.
But the UN CAN, because 117 countries said they could.
That's like saying it doesn't matter that murder (which, lacking government sanction, the Avengers DO commit) is illegal. If you murder someone, you committed a crime, and you should be punished as such.
JackBauer24
Member
"No." 😂😂😂😂
And that's what a court is for. Just because I think someone in jail is innocent does not mean I have the right to break them out.
Sure.
Tony tried to kill Bucky for something he did while under mind control. That's also wrong.
Ross refused to listen to Tony even after evidence had surfaced that Zemo framed Bucky and was responsible for the escape. He continued to imprison private citizens against their will without a trial or due process. That's also wrong.
Here's a reminder - after the airport scene, the heroes could all have run off into hiding and no law enforcement agency would be able to stop them. They didn't. They stayed behind and let themselves be arrested because they knew further escalation would make things worse. That's the RIGHT thing to do.
Steve broke them out at the end when he realized that them doing the right thing doesn't matter to the management.
It's a top secret underwater base prison in the middle of the ocean. You really think there was going to be a court? Lol.
Bruh, the only other thing it had going for it was I couldn't tell what was real and what was CG. It was just all awful. >_>
OK, he's free to not agree with it. But acting in contrast to it makes him a criminal, and he should be willing to be punished for those actions.
JackBauer24
Member
BvS was disjointed and sloppy though. Could have been a good movie, but the editing was horrible.
It wasn't like he was claiming moral superiority.
He was just breaking his friends out of jail. Yes it's a criminal act, but he was a criminal for most of the movie.
There is absolutely nothing in the movie that says they were not granted due process. If they were not, then their are legal methods to petition for their rights. Did Cap file a petition in federal court?
(Obviously this would be boring for a movie, but I'm talking about the rightness of it, not the entertainment factor).
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
So, the people fighting a system that threw them in jail without due process because they fought to protect a man who was going to be executed without due process, should sit back and rot in jail until the system that doesn't give them due process, gives them due process?
Cap specifically asks Everett Ross for Bucky's lawyer and Ross literally laughs in his face
Throughout the movie he was absolutely saying that his moral decisions should be the ones that matter.
bananafactory
Banned
I mean, I knew they both had big title characters fighting. I just didn't expect ANOTHER villain pulling strings behind the scenes to set it up.
Though, this one worked far better.
Why should Cap be willing to be punished for it? Especially when he knows that punishment involves The Avengers being locked up in an underwater prison, actively being prevented from saving people's lives, which is what Cap wants to do the most.
roflwaffles
Member
Ah gotcha, must have missed that while I was geeking out about Giantman.
LOVED Paul Rudd in this.
They absolutely were criminals. I don't think any of them would claim otherwise.
And neither would Cap. He TOLD his team before the airport that if they did this, they would be criminals. No one is pretending they're not here.
I don't think he's at all unaware of the hypocrisy. When he asks Peter why he's fighting him, Peter says Stark told him they were powerful people who didn't want to be controlled and that's dangerous. Steve's answer was agreeing with him, that's definitely dangerous!
But at the end of the day, Steve can't sit around and not help people because that's morally wrong and he can't do it under the authority of the government because he understandably doesn't trust them. So he accepts being a fugitive vigilante because there's no other way to do what he has to do in the world.
He's saying that he'll act according to his morals, he doesn't ask anyone else to follow them.
He breaks the Avengers out of prison because he believes they do not belong to be detained. War's over, let them out. But just because it's an illegal act doesn't make it an immoral act; this is perhaps too serious of a topic to use as a point of comparison but there were times in history where forcibly freeing slaves would have been seen as illegal. That didn't make it wrong though.
Look for any moment Tony takes off the helmet but still has the suit on... got lots of floating head vibes with that fake shadowing around the collar. Very apparent during day scenes.
You're right. No rights, just moral imperatives, like any other group who refuses to kowtow to unjust laws. And unlike most people who resist authority, the Avengers aren't fighting for change by dismantling the governments whose laws would stop them helping people. They just do what they feel needs to be done, like it or lump it - and thusfar I'm not sure why anyone would complain.
For the safety of the planet, the MCU UN should be bending over backwards to sanction their actions, and showing footage of the battle of NY to any politician who takes issue with them.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I'm excited to see his stand alone film. I think he'll be great.
He was pointless in this film.
blankempathy
Member
It was wrong that Tony tried to kill bucky but at the same time it was wrong that cap never told tony and gave him a chance to process the information and arrive at his own decision after thinking it through. How many people would react the same way Tony did in that instance if they were just told that his loved ones were killed by the person next to you? Most would have some type of outburst and not act rationaly. It comes down to the fact that Cap didn't trust Tony. Not with any of information regarding the winter soldier or his parents deaths. He was too concerned about protecting Bucky and in turn was a shitty friend to Tony. In fact Tony realizes he was wrong after he has proof that Bucky was innocent. Did Cap actually try to convince Tony of this before hand? Not really. As for the Avengers not getting due process I doubt that would of happened as well. They weren't going to be locked away like some dark secret. The public knows about the avengers. A lot of people think of them as heroes as we've seen instances of them being idolized through out the films. The public would start to question what happened to them.
I think Steve was aware that he was a shitty friend to Tony. That's why he wrote that letter in the end. He felt bad, and he did shoulder some responsibility for it. But because of Steve's actions, everyone is still alive in the end. If he didn't act the way he did, Bucky would be dead and the Avengers would all be blaming themselves for it after the fact. At least now they're just blaming each other for being angry and impulsive people, which is better than being accessories to a murder of a friend's friend.
That and Cap's first mission after the transformation was to defy a direct order and go into enemy territory to rescue Bucky. And then surrender to whatever punishment Colonel Phillips wanted to give him.
Film did a Hell of a job making his actions understandable while ensuring he wasn't on a halo looking down at everyone else. Like Cap said in Winter Soldier, he's done things he isn't proud of but they're rooted in freedom, not fear. Stark et al are rooted in fear, understandably, but in the process are assuming guilty until innocent.
After the final Cap/Tony fight was where it was worst with Tony in those various positions. The way he bends his legs in that suit considering their design doesn't make any sense. You can bend your leg that far because your flesh and muscles stretch and squeeze. His suit does not (or at least there is no animation for it) so it looks off.
blankempathy
Member
But at the end of the day things were much worse then they had to be because Cap never trusted Tony to do the right thing. He made his own decisions and some of them were completely wrong. Thats the problem with good intentions and not having someone there questioning your actions or trying to give you a different perspective. Especially when you have so much power like the avengers do. You need someone to keep you in check.
There is nothing unjust about being against vigilantism. It's illegal for a reason. Nigeria has every right to say the Avengers are not welcome in their country, and, baring the declaration of an organization that supersedes an individual nation's right's (i.e., the UN), the Avengers SHOULD respect that.
- Status