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Captain America: Civil War SPOILER Thread - #TeamThanos

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guek said:
Cap was right though. The main reason I side with Cap is that he's never ever an instigator. He's a protector throughout the whole thing. All he wants is to protect Bucky from being unjustly killed because that's exactly what would have happened had he not intervened.

But Cap being right doesn't mean Tony was wrong either, at least not behind the principle of the Accords.
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Cap wanted to keep operating the Avengers as vigilantes. That's not acceptable.
 
I BELIEVE THIS IS YOURS, CAPTAIN AMERICA!

I'm glad they kept up the dork angle for Ant-Man. He was great, and the Giant Man bit was one of the highlights. I didn't think the airport fight could get any better, and then it did.
 
Rhaknar said:
Youre just bitter because Spidey calls Empire "that really old movie" and you felt ancient

Like I did ;_;
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Same here haha. It was a bittersweet moment but I'm so glad we got to see a pitch perfect Spidey. I love me some older Peter Parker stories but part of me feels spiderman should stay young for all time for new generations to find and relate to.
 
Matt said:
Cap wanted to keep operating the Avengers as vigilantes. That's not acceptable.
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I don't think that's it.

Cap doesn't trust government to do the right thing, because politicians have agendas and agendas can change. Individual morals aren't nearly as flexible.

Keep in mind that the America cap grew up in was idealistic and radically different from the cynical mess we have in the current MCU and Cap HATES it. He would have given up the Cap role if not for the lack of a place to exist in the 21st century.

This is exactly the kind of mindset I would expect to balk at "let's give the government authority over our actions."
 
I just got out a little bit ago. I really liked it except for Vision not fighting too much at the airport. I mean I get why he didn't because he could stomp everyone but still.

Black Panther and Spider-Man are both amazing and I can't wait for their respective movies now.
 
Honestly in a way... I don't get the impression at the very end that Steve and Tony hate each other. Angry? Yeah. But we know what's going to happen, they will be on bitter terms for a while and then when Infinity War comes out, they will have their epic duo fight against Thanos or someone and sort of "reunite" the Avengers.

At least... I would hope that would happen.
 
Jeffrey said:
I like how the greatly upped his tool kit. Before he was just a dude with uzis that could fly.

Did he have the wings that could turn into a shield before?
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That's really what many people said in the main OT, they gave everyone a moment to shine, even the "lower tier" characters. Widow kicked some major ass in the beginning.

Only one who's holding back is Vision but he got friendzoned, so i get his confusion.
 
Here's the thing about Zemo. That woman that confronted Stark after his MIT speech? That was basically shorthand for Zemo's supervillain origin. Stark thought for a second she was going to pull a gun on him and tbh, I did too. Zemo is just someone who went through with it and pulled the trigger. The juxtaposition is very clever writing.
 
Manmademan said:
I don't think that's it.

Cap doesn't trust government to do the right thing, because politicians have agendas and agendas can change. Individual morals aren't nearly as flexible.

Keep in mind that the America cap grew up in was idealistic and radically different from the cynical mess we have in the current MCU and Cap HATES it. He would have given up the Cap role if not for the lack of a place to exist in the 21st century.

This is exactly the kind of mindset I would expect to balk at "let's give the government authority over our actions."
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Yeah, and remember the World Security Council did try to drop a nuke on New York.

I wouldn't be buying any of that shit after that either
 
Blizzard said:
His murdered father made the shield. That's at least worth some sort of respect. Cap even admitted to lying about it partially because of selfish reasons.
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He didn't drop the shield out of respect. He dropped the shield to tell Tony that the shield isn't what defines him as a person. That man made toys are just that - tools. It means less to him than Tony thinks. But toys are all Tony has.
 
Matt said:
Cap wanted to keep operating the Avengers as vigilantes. That's not acceptable.
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The UN should have been looking for a way to legally sanction The Avengers, not collar them. End of the day, what they do will always be decided by a group of people. Better people like Cap than a litany of career politicians. Some kind of UN liaison is crucial, but without the Avengers, there'd be no UN left to question them.
 
Tony got shook as did the audience when cap was bashing that shield on his dome but cap showed his true colors and broke the power source with the final blow. Best Superman.
 
Manmademan said:
I don't think that's it.

Cap doesn't trust government to do the right thing, because politicians have agendas and agendas can change. Individual morals aren't nearly as flexible.

Keep in mind that the America cap grew up in was idealistic and radically different from the cynical mess we have in the current MCU and Cap HATES it. He would have given up the Cap role if not for the lack of a place to for in in the 21st century.

This is exactly the kind of mindset I would expect to balk at "let's give the government authority over our actions."
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Except the movie shows the flaw in his reasoning. Individuals can have agendas that effect their judgment. Bucky was his. If that had just been some random guy Cap wouldn't have gone through all this to save him.

Nothing gives Cap or the Avengers the right to do whatever they want. They should not have that power.
 
I like that they actually did kill Captain America (not Steve Rogers) in the end.

But yeah, Peter was incredible.
T'Challa and Scott were also really big highlights.

Don't really get Clint going completely off the rocker though, there wasn't really anything to suggest this.
 
duckroll said:
He didn't drop the shield out of respect. He dropped the shield to tell Tony that the shield isn't what defines him as a person. That man made toys are just that - tools. It means less to him than Tony thinks. But toys are all Tony has.
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I didn't say Cap was showing respect, but in my opinion it DESERVES respect.

Tony only has tools because he's not superhuman -- he uses what he can to do what he thinks is right -- it's similar to what someone with superpowers like Cap would do, just without the pure boy scout morals Cap has. (Side note, in the past I generally liked the boy scout nature of Cap.)
 
Matt said:
Except the movie shows the flaw in his reasoning. Individuals can have agendas that effect their judgment. Bucky was his. If that had just been some random guy Cap wouldn't have gone through all this to save him.

Nothing gives Cap or the Avengers the right to do whatever they want. They should not have that power.
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I sure as heck don't want the government to be in control of that power either.
 
Matt said:
Except the movie shows the flaw in his reasoning. Individuals can have agendas that effect their judgment. Bucky was his. If that had just been some random guy Cap wouldn't have gone through all this to save him.

Nothing gives Cap or the Avengers the right to do whatever they want. They should not have that power.
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tbh, in a real world situation, people with powers like the Avengers would be horrifically terrifying no matter what.
 
Matt said:
Except the movie shows the flaw in his reasoning. Individuals can have agendas that effect their judgment. Bucky was his. If that had just been some random guy Cap wouldn't have gone through all this to save him.
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Bullshit. Steve doesn't even know Wanda all that well. She blew up a building and killed innocent people on a mission he ran. He didn't sell her out. He considered it his failure as commander. He protected her just as much as he protected Bucky. Captain America looks out for those who no one else wants to look out for. He is the protector of the unprotected. The shield of the weak. The first and the last Avenger.
 
rec0ded1 said:
Tony got shook as did the audience when cap was bashing that shield on his dome but cap showed his true colors and broke the power source with the final blow. Best Superman.
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I legitimately thought they might make Cap murder Tony by doing that. Tony kept talking about his left arm going numb or whatever, and I figured the power source being shattered might kill him.
 
duckroll said:
Bullshit. Steve doesn't even know Wanda all that well. She blew up a building and killed innocent people on a mission he ran. He didn't sell her out. He considered it his failure as commander. He protected her just as much as he protected Bucky. Captain America looks out for those who no one else wants to look out for. He is the protector of the unprotected. The shield of the weak. The first and the last Avenger.
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giphy.gif
 
guek said:
Here's the thing about Zemo. That woman that confronted Stark after his MIT speech? That was basically shorthand for Zemo's supervillain origin. Stark thought for a second she was going to pull a gun on him and tbh, I did too. Zemo is just someone who went through with it and pulled the trigger. The juxtaposition is very clever writing.
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I felt the opposite. I didn't think pushing that twice was needed. Made for a great personal moment but when it's just reused later (and not as well) it takes something away from the first go around. I didn't like that that was the thing driving Stark's motivation either. With or without their restrictions innocents are going to die when battles are waged. Unless they get lucky and they all take place in abandoned wastelands. Cap was right. The outcome is the same but the blame is shifted and I thought it was rather selfish of Stark to feel that was acceptable. Especially since the entire reason he supported it was because he was blaming himself for the death of that boy.
 
duckroll said:
Bullshit. Steve doesn't even know Wanda all that well. She blew up a building and killed innocent people on a mission he ran. He didn't sell her out. He considered it his failure as commander. He protected her just as much as he protected Bucky. Captain America looks out for those who no one else wants to look out for. He is the protector of the unprotected. The shield of the weak. The first and the last Avenger.
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Well ignoring the tongue in cheekness, he knew and lived with Wanda for a year, and she was part of his team.
 
Now that I've had time to mull this movie over, one thing just keeps on popping up in my head.

This shit would have never happened if Nick Fury were still in charge.
 
The Icon said:
I thought it was rather selfish of Stark to feel that was acceptable. Especially since the entire reason he supported it was because he was blaming himself for the death of that boy.
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He also stated that his being unable to stop doing iron man stuff came between him and pepper, so the accords could be a way to keep him chill...pretty selfish reason too.
 
MightyKAC said:
Now that I've had time to mull this movie over, one thing just keeps on popping up in my head.

This shit would have never happened if Nick Fury were still in charge.
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Nick would've told Ross to stick the accords up his ass and smile about it. And he would tell Tony to get off of his pity parade and get his shit together.



Worst Civil War ever.
 
The Icon said:
I felt the opposite. I didn't think pushing that twice was needed. Made for a great personal moment but when it's just reused later (and not as well) it takes something away from the first go around. I didn't like that that was the thing driving Stark's motivation either. With or without their restrictions innocents are going to die when battles are waged. Unless they get lucky and they all take place in abandoned wastelands. Cap was right. The outcome is the same but the blame is shifted and I thought it was rather selfish of Stark to feel that was acceptable. Especially since the entire reason he supported it was because he was blaming himself for the death of that boy.
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That wasn't entirely why Tony was signing the accords. He wants to get in on the game while they still have some control because eventually situations like Lagos will happen again, and eventually the world's disagreements with how they operate will no longer be as diplomatic. What happens when the government has had enough and say comes to the Avengers complex demanding Wanda come face justice? Are the Avengers going to fight the US government? Stark says "I've doing this now, because I'm afraid it's eventually going to be done too us", which I agree with since this is not a thing that will blow over.
 
Matt said:
Except the movie shows the flaw in his reasoning. Individuals can have agendas that effect their judgment. Bucky was his. If that had just been some random guy Cap wouldn't have gone through all this to save him.

Nothing gives Cap or the Avengers the right to do whatever they want. They should not have that power.
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Neither should the police, but look at the situation in parts of the US.

I appreciate and agree with the principle of your argument, but if everything worked the way it was supposed to, the world wouldn't need the Avengers. It doesn't, and that's due to the failure of those you want put in control of a handful of good people who haven't put a toe out of line, or shown themselves to be motivated by anything other than protecting innocent people regardless of nationality. And also they saved the world from Loki. Without their intervention, the planet would be under his control.
 
The Icon said:
I felt the opposite. I didn't think pushing that twice was needed. Made for a great personal moment but when it's just reused later (and not as well) it takes something away from the first go around. I didn't like that that was the thing driving Stark's motivation either. With or without their restrictions innocents are going to die when battles are waged. Unless they get lucky and they all take place in abandoned wastelands. Cap was right. The outcome is the same but the blame is shifted and I thought it was rather selfish of Stark to feel that was acceptable. Especially since the entire reason he supported it was because he was blaming himself for the death of that boy.
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It's not just twice though. Sokovia was a whole country getting fucked up big time. One woman working at the UN confronts Stark as a mother. One supervillain being born out of the Sokovian Secret Service. The Sokovian Accords resulting from the incident. These are all consequences of the escalation of superpowers in the MCU. Out of all the fallout of basically destroying a country, two pissed off people appearing in the film and an international resolution resulting from it actually seems very... small in scale.
 
I wish Marvel would stop beating around the bush and just tell us who's fucking who.

Is Steve tapping Black Widow?

Or is Black Widow sexing Banner?

Or is The Hawk guy sleeping with Widow?

Is Stark still love making with The Red Head?

Or is Steve still in love with New Carter?

Are Vison and and Wanda a romantic thing?

And why don't I know more terms for catching the crazy turkey? :c
 
Manmademan said:
Zemo was built up more than enough. It's made plain as day that ordinary people were getting caught up in the fallout of superhero fistfights. Enough that 117 countries signed on to a plan to rein them in. Footage of new York, DC, and sokovia were shown with civilians screaming, and they didn't even bother showing what happened in Africa in AoU which is probably the worst example.

The woman at the elevator makes Zemos point for him before he even shows up. The avengers are getting people killed despite their intentions, and losing those you love and are invested in can drive you to do irrational things. The only difference between zemo and that woman was that zemo had the experience and patience to actually enact some kind of revenge on the planet's most powerful.
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To me you're making it sound like Zemo is just another guy who's wife and kid got killed in the cross fire but decided to really do something about it.

I get where you're coming from with that, and I'm sure some can sympathize just off that but for me I need a few personal moments besides just a message. More personal stuff means more opportunity to see his struggle and sympathize with him more.
 
The Icon said:
I felt the opposite. I didn't think pushing that twice was needed. Made for a great personal moment but when it's just reused later (and not as well) it takes something away from the first go around. I didn't like that that was the thing driving Stark's motivation either. With or without their restrictions innocents are going to die when battles are waged. Unless they get lucky and they all take place in abandoned wastelands. Cap was right. The outcome is the same but the blame is shifted and I thought it was rather selfish of Stark to feel that was acceptable. Especially since the entire reason he supported it was because he was blaming himself for the death of that boy.
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I dunno man, Zemo's monologue at the end really worked for me to drive the point home. I can't remember the exact line but it something like "After Sokovia, what happened to the Avengers? They went home." I'd be thinking fuck those guys too.

But you're right about Stark. He was trying to absolve his own guilt by playing along with public sentiment. There were good intentions behind it all to be sure but for him, it was more about looking for accountability than protecting the people that need protection. The unfortunate reality though is that all that leads to is bureaucracy.
 
This is a world where two members of the World Security Council were Hydra and so was SHIELD. And that same WSC greenlit a nuke fired at New York City.

I think Cap is right to give government authority the side-eye.

The rule of narrative conflict means the government oversight will always turn out to be evil in some fashion. See: Ross in this very film.
 
Aske said:
Neither should the police, but look at the situation in parts of the US.

I appreciate and agree with the principle of your argument, but if everything worked the way it was supposed to, the world wouldn't need the Avengers. It doesn't, and that's due to the failure of those you want put in control of a handful of good people who haven't put a toe out of line, or shown themselves to be motivated by anything other than protecting innocent people regardless of nationality. And also they saved the world from Loki. Without their intervention, the planet would be under his control.
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Eventually, all governments exists at the will of their people, and internationally those governments come together to form the UN. Whatever flaws there are in that realm (and of course they are innumerable), it's still the best system we have, and I can't abide this small group of individuals coming together and thinking their own beliefs should override that, no matter how good I know their intentions are.
 
I'd bet dollars to donuts that Fury is gonna be the driving force for getting the band back together. Other than Thanos, I mean.
 
Loved this movie. It just flowed and didn't let up the action.

BTW, was the Bucky gunshot to Tony's hand get taken out or did I fall asleep at some point?
 
MHWilliams said:
This is a world where two members of the World Security Council were Hydra and so was SHIELD. And that same WSC greenlit a nuke fired at New York City.

I think Cap is right to give government authority the side-eye.
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Oh they can be suspicious of it, as they should be. But the Avengers have no right to just ignore that authority.
 
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