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[Imperfected]

Look, Bucky wasn't responsible for the death of the Stark parents, but you've got to read the room and prostrate yourself in apology anyway. Not doing so almost cost Bucky his life. Everyone in the thread is giving great explanations of the situation. Bucky should have tried one. Instead, his silence essentially tells Tony "deal with it, idiot."

That's reasonable, but again, Bucky is a severely damaged individual.

They actually set up for this with the "Manchurian Candidate" scene immediately beforehand: Bucky has no ability to read social situations anymore. He literally cannot read the interplay between Steve and Tony until both of them spell it out for him what's going on.

He probably spent the entire fight just trying to process what's going on. The only reason he's even fighting back is probably raw instinct.

 

[jetjevons]

Phenomenal movie. Cap movies are probably the best super hero trilogy in existence.

 

[Sblargh]

I love how well this movie capture Marvel's spirit. Those aren't sane, healthy people who somehow find superpowers; those are neurotic fuck-ups with really good intentions who no psychiatrist on the planet would ever give a license to go out there and get superpowers.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I don't think Tony tries to kill a guy who is profusely apologizing and saying "it wasn't me" like he means it. Who knows, though. I know I'd do something to try to defuse things

Spoiler

he says from his couch

Tony wasn't in a straight thinking space in that moment. I mean fuck, when he comes in the room to help them, Bucky is trained on him the entire time.

The climate between those two was ice cold from the start of the film.

 

[Calamari41]

That's reasonable, but again, Bucky is a severely damaged individual.

They actually set up for this with the "Manchurian Candidate" scene immediately beforehand: Bucky has no ability to read social situations anymore. He literally cannot read the interplay between Steve and Tony until both of them spell it out for him what's going on.

He probably spent the entire fight just trying to process what's going on. The only reason he's even fighting back is probably raw instinct.

Yeah that's definitely true. Great point. He can barely even process what's happening. It's not as if he knows Tony in the least, either.

Rogers should have tried stop the fight rather than taking a side. Though I guess he needed to take a side, Tony was kind of wrecking them both.

 

[BronsonLee]

Throwing a sustained murderous tantrum in the face of all logic is only normal for selfish children with poor impulse control.

lol nah fam
To everyone saying 'yo he's brainwashed', I say 'yo I'll take that into consideration after I pound his face into the ground'

It isn't poor impulse control, it's the dude having a very clear breakdown that a lot of people can relate to

What is there to explain? It was known that Bucky was acting against his own will when he tried shooting Tony in the eye during the escape after Zemo reprogrammed him.

'Oh fuck, I'm sor' *missile to the face*

Maybe Bucket could be more useful in death!

 

[Zubz]

New cap can easily be sam or Bucky. Both work be awesome

But I can't see Rogers dying in any of the movies.

I mean, like, maybe we could have a Batman Incorporated thing where there're 3 Captain Americas? They're all good for the role.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

That's reasonable, but again, Bucky is a severely damaged individual.

They actually set up for this with the "Manchurian Candidate" scene immediately beforehand: Bucky has no ability to read social situations anymore. He literally cannot read the interplay between Steve and Tony until both of them spell it out for him what's going on.

He probably spent the entire fight just trying to process what's going on. The only reason he's even fighting back is probably raw instinct.

Further, people seem to be willfully ignoring the fact that Bucky was mind-wiped after nearly every mission.

That means he was just as shocked and appalled watching that footage.

 

[endlessflood]

Yar, Steve's virtue is also his flaw. He basically could look pretty contemptible to anyone not behind his shield.

I also tend to think that he has a soldier's mindset where he's never going to leave his men (or women) behind. I think that's another reason why the Bucky/Winter Soldier situation weighs so heavily on him, and also why he reacts so strongly to hearing that Wanda is under house arrest.

 

[Pau]

Sam and Bucky taking up the mantel make sense for MCU.
Bucky gets the round shield as a symbol of forgiveness from Stark and Sam gets whatever new shield Wakanda make for Cap.

I'm okay with this.

 

[Sblargh]

Yeah that's definitely true. Great point. He can barely even process what's happening. It's not as if he knows Tony in the least, either.

Rogers should have tried stop the fight rather than taking a side.

That's what he did, tho. He tells Bucky to leave and stays to stop Tony; he just fails.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

'Oh fuck, I'm sor' *missile to the face*

Exactly. Dude didn't even let Sam apologize or express remorse for Rhoadey before blasting him.

I can't believe people think that Bucky trying to apologize, in that moment, with the culmination of the emotional weight Stark was carrying, would have made for a happy happ ending.

 

[PsychBat!]

Back. I can't debate a dude who wanted Tony dead in the first place.

Throwing a sustained murderous tantrum in the face of all logic is only normal for selfish children with poor impulse control. I'm not saying that it was an out of character thing for him to do, just that he sucks for doing it. I could understand him attacking Bucky after seeing him murder his parents, but at no point does he come to his senses. He relentlessly tries to kill someone he knows was brainwashed, and he's still acting like a baby after Steve beats him.

I'm kind of amazed that you think that he should get over it that fast.

 

[BronsonLee]

Exactly. Dude didn't even let Sam apologize or express remorse for Rhoadey before blasting him.

I can't believe people think that Bucky trying to apologize, in that moment, with the culmination of the emotional weight Stark was carrying, would have made for a happy happ ending.

YO Stark blasting Sam was so good. What a fucking petty asshole

Once Zemo played that tape, shit was DONE. It got delayed a bit by Cap stalling but that just meant Tony went for him first

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Throwing a sustained murderous tantrum in the face of all logic is only normal for selfish children with poor impulse control.

I think throwing a sustained murderous tantrum in the face of all logic is normal for everybody. What makes a well-reasoned adult and selfish children different is simply the severity of what finally makes them snap.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Look, Tony needs to die so Pepper can become Rescue and Gwyneth Paltrow can get that leading role she wanted.

 

[DrBo42]

Thought The Winter Soldier was considerably better. Pacing problems, cut to Queens and inclusion of Spider-Man felt forced as fuck. Political angle was rather weak. This was the best Avengers movie though.

 

[Sblargh]

If screwing up as a hero is worthy a dramatic death; there would be no super heroes in the marvel universe. I mean, spider-man possibly killed his own girlfriend.

Snap

 

[Jest Chillin]

I like how people keep repeating "seeing my parents killed and the guy that did it is three feet away" while ignoring that they died 25 years before and the villain just finished a speech saying he specifically intended to make them fight each other right before playing the video.

It was not a fresh wound at all and Tony was told he was being manipulated. It's fine that he was pissed but for fucks sake man why allow yourself to be played with. Get the villain and then deal with the other shit like an adult instead of a petulant child. It's made even more asinine with Tony calling Bucky "Manchurian Candidate" in the immediately preceding scene.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

YO Stark blasting Sam was so good. What a fucking petty asshole

Once Zemo played that tape, shit was DONE. It got delayed a bit by Cap stalling but that just meant Tony went for him first

I said this before, Stark, in his mind, took a huge risk going to the Raft to get the information to help Cap and Bucky, against his better judgment. After doing so, he is rightfully met with a hostile welcome from Bucky and Rogers. After calming them and getting to a cautious truce, he is then faced with a video of that dude he never trusted deading his folks 25 years ago?

Yeah Bron, it was a wrap once that video played.

 

[Imperfected]

Rhodey hitting the ground actually caught me off-guard. The framing of the scene was obviously meant to be deceptive: the trope they lampshade is that Tony isn't able to reach him in time, but Sam does, and in doing so causes Tony to cool off with the realization that the people on Cap's side do still ultimately care about the rest of the team more than whatever else might be going on.

I'm not usually a fan of trope inversion (I feel like a lot of recent movies do it just for its own sake), but it was used well in this film, when you also consider the "How many heat signatures?" scene. They were good places to throw curve balls.

 

[Sojgat]

Back. I can't debate a dude who wanted Tony dead in the first place.

I'm kind of amazed that you think that he should get over it that fast.

I'm not saying he should've gotten over it, but he definitely should have stopped attacking pretty quickly after lashing out. Instead he goes on a kill rampage.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I like how people keep repeating "seeing my parents killed and the guy that did it is three feet away" while ignoring that they died 25 years before and the villain just finished a speech saying he specifically intended to make them fight each other right before playing the video.

It was not a fresh wound at all and Tony was told he was being manipulated. It's fine that he was pissed but for fucks sake man why allow yourself to be played with. Get the villain and then deal with the other shit like an adult instead of a petulant child. It's made even more asinine with Tony calling Bucky "Manchurian Candidate" in the immediately preceding scene.

If you finally settled it with yourself 25 years that they had died in an unavoidable, tragic car wreck, that is different. When you realize that they didn't have to die and they were actually run off the road, brutally murdered and made to look like an accident...by the dude standing right next to you.

Holy fuck! How is it people are struggling so hard with this shit?!?!?

 

[Valentus]

If screwing up as a hero is worthy a dramatic death; there would be no super heroes in the marvel universe. I mean, spider-man possibly killed his own girlfriend.



Snap

The only way to make MCU spiderman different from the other fiascos is to make that scene a reality.

DO IT FEIGE

 

[Spinluck]

I was hoping we'd get to see some Spider-Man versus BP action, but considering both of them were being propped up as unstoppable forces in their own rights it would probably be too nebulous to cover in this particular film.

I have to imagine BP's anti-metal claws could just as easily shred through webbing, though.

Spidey didn't seem all that unstoppable.

Seemed kind of inexperienced, nervous, impressed, and the moment was eventually too big for him.

Was really weird to see him freak out when Tony checked on him at the end of the airport scene. Doesn't seem to have complete control over his powers.

Her mentioned to Tony that he was Spidey for 6 months, and that he used the lens on his other suit to focus since his senses would go haywire.

Wonder what he meant by that.

 

[User 73706]

"Tony said to go for your legs."

*immediately goes for his arms*

 

[PsychBat!]

It was not a fresh wound at all and Tony was told he was being manipulated. It's fine that he was pissed but for fucks sake man why allow yourself to be played with. Get the villain and then deal with the other shit like an adult instead of a petulant child. It's made even more asinine with Tony calling Bucky "Manchurian Candidate" in the immediately preceding scene.

This all well and good if it had been a regular car accident. But it wasn't.

 

[twozerotwo]

Was Martin Freeman's character supposed to have/will have a larger role?

He felt so wasted.

 

[BronsonLee]

Was Martin Freeman's character supposed to have/will have a larger role?

He felt so wasted.

He's for Black Panther. This was a nice little intro for later on.

 

[PadWarrior]

Was Martin Freeman's character supposed to have/will have a larger role?

He felt so wasted.

He will in black panther

 

[Jest Chillin]

If you finally settled it with yourself 25 years that they had died in an unavoidable, tragic car wreck, that is different. When you realize that they didn't have to die and they were actually run off the road, brutally murdered and made to look like an accident...by the dude standing right next to you.

Holy fuck! How is it people are struggling so hard with this shit?!?!?

I'm not struggling with a thing. If their death was always ruled as an assassination, then there would be a logic to him carrying a desire for vengeance underneath it all. But that's not what happened. There's no room for him to process long enough for rage to be a reasonable first reaction, especially when contextualized with Zemo's words.

Shove it down, deal with Zemo, then deal with the reveal.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Was Martin Freeman's character supposed to have/will have a larger role?

He felt so wasted.

Everett Ross is relevant for Black Panther. He might appear more there. Dunno how much, but should be fun.

Edit: Beaten, like Tony's asshole dad.

 

[PsychBat!]

I'm not struggling with a thing. If their death was always ruled as an assassination, then there would be a logic to him carrying a desire for vengeance underneath it all. But that's not what happened. There's no room for him to process long enough for rage to be a reasonable first reaction, especially when contextualized with Zemo's words.

Shove it down, deal with Zemo, then deal with the reveal.

rage needs to be processed?

 

[The Artisan]

Look, Bucky wasn't responsible for the death of the Stark parents, but you've got to read the room and prostrate yourself in apology anyway. Not doing so almost cost Bucky his life. Everyone in the thread is giving great explanations of the situation. Bucky should have tried one. Instead, his silence essentially tells Tony "deal with it, idiot."

yeah, pretty much this. he didn't really seem sorry to tony about any of it. he was just fighting for his life.

also, the whole "homecoming" thing, i'm guessing there will be some sort of connection to the spiderman movie?

 

[Imperfected]

Was really weird to see him freak out when Tony checked on him at the end of the airport scene. Doesn't seem to have complete control over his powers.

I don't think he was supposed to be "freaking out", really. They were more going for the idea that he got his bell rung but was still trying to get up and get back in the fight, it's a sort of "punching above your weight" plucky scrawny kid trope that actually mirrors the punch-up scene in the alley of The First Avenger really well. ("I can do this all day.")

 

[CloudyTuba]

I went into this movie expecting to pick a clear side. And with how much of a dick Tony has been the past two movies he's been in, I assumed I'd be fully team Cap and Tony would be the bad guy.

But in the end I found both sides to be reasonable and unreasonable in different ways. The movie started with me being logically with Tony but emotionally with Cap. By the end I was logically with Cap and emotionally with Tony. I couldnt really pick a side, the whole thing just felt very unfortunate for all involved.

The fact that the issue felt legitimately difficult really sold the movie. I love the fact that so many people are complaining online about the plot not making sense because one side is obviously right, and yet what side they're referring to changes from complaint to complaint. I dont think they realize that they're having the exact same issue presented in the movie. That's the point.

Really liked it. Way better Avengers movie than Avengers 2.

 

[PsychBat!]

I do like that this thread is turning in to a Civil War here. Someone make some fan art.

 

[BronsonLee]

I do like that this thread is turning in to a Civil War here. Someone make some fan art.

#TeamBronson

 

[Calamari41]

That's what he did, tho. He tells Bucky to leave and stays to stop Tony; he just fails.

Yeah you're right, I edited my post shortly after it went up. It only seemed like Rogers was taking a side because Bucky was outmatched and would have been torn to shreds if it was a 1 on 1. He needed to make it 2 on 1 to end it.

 

[Imperfected]

I do like that this thread is turning in to a Civil War here. Someone make some fan art.

If there wasn't disagreement over who was right and who was wrong, it wouldn't be a very well-written scene, right?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I'm not struggling with a thing. If their death was always ruled as an assassination, then there would be a logic to him carrying a desire for vengeance underneath it all. But that's not what happened. There's no room for him to process long enough for rage to be a reasonable first reaction, especially when contextualized with Zemo's words.

Shove it down, deal with Zemo, then deal with the reveal.

Yeah, finding out what really killed your parents (as opposed to the lie you believed for the last 25 years) wouldn't send you off the deep end. The point is, his parents are revealed to have been senselessly murdered instead of some random, tragic accident.

Yes, if Tony is a robot without actual emotion, I would totes agree with you. He should shove it down, deal with Zemo and then the reveal.

However, Stark is instead a flawed arrogant self centered human being.

 

[Sblargh]

I went into this movie expecting to pick a clear side. And with how much of a dick Tony has been the past two movies he's been in, I assumed I'd be fully team Cap and Tony would be the bad guy.

But in the end I found both sides to be reasonable and unreasonable in different ways. The movie started with me being logically with Tony but emotionally with Cap. By the end I was logically with Cap and emotionally with Tony. I couldnt really pick a side, the whole thing just felt very unfortunate for all involved.

The fact that the issue felt legitimately difficult really sold the movie. I love the fact that so many people are complaining online about the plot not making sense because one side is obviously right, and yet what side they're referring to changes from complaint to complaint. I dont think they realize that they're having the exact same issue presented in the movie.

Really liked it. Way better Avengers movie than Avengers 2.

Yeah man, half the fun of the movie is now being on this thread, seeing the arguments in the movie being debated and nitpicked to death. Not being ironic; it is genuinely fun that the movie made people care enough to get worked up on the internet because of it.

I know that from time to time, I am on this thread like "those motherfuckers from GAF doesn't understand how my view of fake-world politics is so much better than theirs". I really find it fun to debate these kind of hypotheticals.

 

[The Artisan]

Really liked it. Way better Avengers movie than Avengers 2.

agreed with this. my suspicion before watching the movie was that this would be an avengers movie masquerading as cap3, and now after having watched the movie i will say with my experience, this is the third avengers movie. and it was better than the second.

 

[Fandangox]

#TeamBronson

worst team

 

[Jest Chillin]

rage needs to be processed?

The revelation that his parents were actually killed needs to be processed. There was literally not so much of a hint towards that for Tony before that moment. And the reveal is coming from a villain who has been putting the heroes against each other from the start. There should be some form of wondering if it's true or not. Not just immediately believing it and hating everyone in the room.

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

Something I missed, but how did Steve know Bucky killed the Starks? Did he find out in Winter Soldier and I just forgot?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

#TeamBronson

#TeamNotBronson

 

[BronsonLee]

worst team

#TeamNotBronson

How dare you

The revelation that his parents were actually killed needs to be processed. There was literally not so much of a hint towards that for Tony before that moment. And the reveal is coming from a villain who has been putting the heroes against each other from the start. There should be some form of wondering if it's true or not. Not just immediately believing it and hating everyone in the room.

I mean, to give credit to Tony, he DOES try to process it a bit and doesn't immediately fucking murk Bucket. He at least asks Cap wtf before getting down to business

 

[Jest Chillin]

Something I missed, but how did Steve know Bucky killed the Starks? Did he find out in Winter Soldier and I just forgot?

Yes. Zola reveals it during his monologue. He discusses Bucky's missions and flashes headlines on the screen including the Starks car accident.

 

[Armaros]

Something I missed, but how did Steve know Bucky killed the Starks? Did he find out in Winter Soldier and I just forgot?

When they met the computerized Zola in the bunker, you see a montage of Hydra targets over the years hidden inside Shield and one of them was Howard Stark, with Zola saying "accidents happen"