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[Salsa]

Zemo's whole thing of being "just a dude" would be more powerful if he was... not Zemo

what an odd choice. who are you pullin there? just create your own character, have a whole thing about him being just a random guy from serkovia and show how The Avengers are their own villain and yadda yadda

why attach a comic book villain who's nothing like that to him? his ties to Hydra were barely integral to the theme they were trying to portray. it actually hurts it IMO. pick one.

 

[Imperfected]

There was a couple with their young child (maybe a 6-9ish girl) next to my group even at a cinebarre that serves alcohol, but to their credit she was perfectly well-behaved the entire movie.

 

[mreddie]

Nah, it's not every movie. This is literally the first time in over 30 years of my attending the movies that something like that has happened. And I go to a lot of movies. There's been kids talking, babies crying, teenagers giggling, assholes texting, big dipshits loudly narrating and getting angry when you shush 'em, I've seen all that, multiple times, but usually I only get one of those flavors, once a year, if that.

This was a first, definitely. I've never had two pre-schoolers GAW GAW HAHBHBHBH GAB GAW-ing through the entire picture while running laps. That's never happened before.

Not even at matinee Pixar screenings.

Adivce: Try the Drafthouse theatres.

Opening Friday seeing Big Hero 6, had a kid puke just as we getting to look for our seats. That started the go in the morning or Thursday screening rule.

 

[SRG01]

Tony's all about some young bright intelligent kid dying because of him in the aftermath of superhero war

he then goes grab a young bright intelligent kid he doesnt need at all in this fight

how is this so underthought

It isn't though. Tony realizes his mistake when Spidey gets hurt after the airport sequence.

The thing about Tony throughout this entire movie is that he's a hypocritical character who thinks he's doing the right thing but is really assuaging his own guilt. That's the beautiful irony about MCU Tony: he's portrayed as this ideal hyper-rational, scientific person, but is actually the most emotional and flawed character out of the entire group.

Contrast that to Steve, who has a strong moral compass and always tries to do the right thing. Steve had heroic traits before he received the serum. Tony isn't a hero by nature and that lack of innate 'good' affects everything Tony does.

 

[Sblargh]

Good thing i don't go to Half in the Bag for anything worth while. Always seemed pretentious to me.

Reject Adult swim programming.

I actually believe they are honest good film critics. And if they sound pretentious it is becaus they know what they are talking about and they don't try to act like they are the cool geeky kids just excited for the next hype or whatever.

I thought their criticism was spot on, tbh, like I agree with Salsa here too, but the thing is, I am so much of this hyped nerd I just dismissed that those flaws don't really bother me.

Like, yeah, there is a tone problem in the movie, but whatever, when the movie gets serious, I care enough about the characters to get serious with it; when it turns into a fun super-fight saturday morning cartoon, I am able to instantly switch moods, because hell yeah, I like those, too!

Spider-man was shoehorned in? Sure. But I love spider-man and I loved this spider-man, so, you know, sometimes fanservice actually does the fan a service. I just sit there and thank they gave me such a fun spider-man for me to (pun?) marvel at the screen!

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Zemo's whole thing of being "just a dude" would be more powerful if he was... not Zemo

what an odd choice. who are you pullin there? just create your own character, have a whole thing about him being just a random guy from serkovia and show how The Avengers are their own villain and yadda yadda

why attach a comic book villain who's nothing like that to him

It's his origin story. If they had no interest in bringing him back they would have let him blow his brains out (which would have still left BP off the hook for karma).

Thunderbolts in phase 4. Book it.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

I sat next to a woman who everytime a superhero walked on the screen she inhaled to loud that I thought at some point that she orgasmed *g*

Was quite funny

 

[Salsa]

It isn't though. Tony realizes his mistake when Spidey gets hurt after the airport sequence.

I mean c'mon

it was played for laughs. I actually would have liked if they put him more to task there in realizing it was kind of a mistake rather than making a joke of it. the film just doesnt seem to want to commit to one thing

 

[DeathyBoy]

Zemo's whole thing of being "just a dude" would be more powerful if he was... not Zemo

what an odd choice. who are you pullin there? just create your own character, have a whole thing about him being just a random guy from serkovia and show how The Avengers are their own villain and yadda yadda

why attach a comic book villain who's nothing like that to him? his ties to Hydra were barely integral to the theme they were trying to portray. it actually hurts it IMO. pick one.

Where did this "just a dude" thing come from?

The film tells you he was a soldier on a Sokovian elite squad. He wasn't Tim from down the street.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Good thing i don't go to Half in the Bag for anything worth while. Always seemed pretentious to me.

Reject Adult swim programming.

"I don't agree with them or find their opinions worthwhile or entertaining, therefore it's pretentious poopy baby diapers"

Thet aren't pretentious, Mike has clearly gotten tired of superhero movies and just came from batman v superman which was horrible so probably doesn't help that this movie wasn't the second coming of Jesus as some were hyping it up to be. They enjoyed Ant-man and at the end say they enjoyed the movie.

The surprising bit here is that Jay is usually the one who judges blockbusters way more harshly with the obvious example of jurassic world and now Mike is the one who was being overly negative throughout the whole thing.

They enjoyed ant man for what it was and back then Mike was basically saying he was waiting for the first Crack in the armor for superhero films, he's tired.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Adivce: Try the Drafthouse theatres.

We don't have Drafthouse theaters here. We have fairly awesome independent houses here in Portland, a couple that are probably better than Drafthouse so far as AV quality and care of presentation goes (which is saying something, I know), but I wasn't in a position to see the movie at one of those theaters tonight, so I went to one of my places where I typically get a great experience. It just didn't happen tonight, is all.

I mean, I appreciate the advice but it's not really needed, either.

edit: Wait, cabbage: There are things you can call the RLM guys, but I'm really not sure "pretentious" is one of them. That criticism is often-mislaid as it is, but it really doesn't apply to those guys.

 

[Wheeljack539]

In the context of the scene, Tony doesn't know this. He thinks Steve is talking out of his ass trying to protect his friend. Then Rhodes gets critically injured and one of Cap's buddies comes running over talking about "hey man, my bad, we were just fooling around, we didn't think anyone would really get hurt."

He's lucky he only caught a repulsor to the chest.

Edit: To be clear I'm not saying Tony was in the right. He finds out not 20 minutes later that he was wrong about Bucky. But in that moment, you're not surprised that he laid Falcon out. He was seriously (and in his mind, justifiably) pissed off.

I'm not saying he wasn't justified in laying out Falcon but I disagree with how you portray Falcon's response. He lands and you can see the look on Sam's face before he simply says, "I'm sorry". He's horrified but Tony in his moment of grief takes him down there.

And still concerned that its one of the first questions he asks Tony how Rhodes is when Tony visits his cell.

 

[Salsa]

Where did this "just a dude" thing come from?

The film tells you he was a soldier on a Sokovian elite squad. He wasn't Tim from down the street.

I know? but his reasoning is "Tim from down the street"

in my opinion it would benefit that theme if he was Tim from down the street

they set him up as being related to these characters, specially just by who he is compared to the comics, yet his reasoning and reasons to do what he does are completely unnatached to them other than that particular incident

I mean they do it to make him capable of pulling what he pulls, sure, but ultimately I think it would have been a stronger message if they went all the way with it rather than having both and him now being a villain with an origin story

 

[Sojgat]

Zemo's whole thing of being "just a dude" would be more powerful if he was... not Zemo

what an odd choice. who are you pullin there? just create your own character, have a whole thing about him being just a random guy from serkovia and show how The Avengers are their own villain and yadda yadda

why attach a comic book villain who's nothing like that to him

Right?

I guess it's only a problem for people actually familiar with the character from the comics, but it seems like a waste. Hopefully there are plans to do more with Zemo. Otherwise giving him that name was pretty pointless.

 

[Rentahamster]

The fact that the issue felt legitimately difficult really sold the movie. I love the fact that so many people are complaining online about the plot not making sense because one side is obviously right, and yet what side they're referring to changes from complaint to complaint. I dont think they realize that they're having the exact same issue presented in the movie. That's the point.

Yep. It's amusingly ironic how a large number of the complaints that this movie's writing is bad and one-sided, sorta proves that it's not.

 

[Jimmy King]

The guys behind Best of the Worst are "pretentious?"

Huh?

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Speaking of drafthouse, I wish I had one closer. In today's showing at the cinemark 4 minutes away it wasn't so bad but having the baby cry at the worst moments ugh.

There should be a rule against bringing infants to opening weekends.

 

[Cabbagehead]

I actually believe they are honest good film critics. And if they sound pretentious it is becaus they know what they are talking about and they don't try to act like they are the cool geeky kids just excited for the next hype or whatever.

I thought their criticism was spot on, tbh, like I agree with Salsa here too, but the thing is, I am so much of this hyped nerd I just dismissed that those flaws don't really bother me.

Like, yeah, there is a tone problem in the movie, but whatever, when the movie gets serious, I care enough about the characters to get serious with it; when it turns into a fun super-fight saturday morning cartoon, I am able to instantly switch moods, because hell yeah, I like those, too!

Spider-man was shoehorned in? Sure. But I love spider-man and I loved this spider-man, so, you know, sometimes fanservice actually does the fan a service. I just sit there and thank they gave me such a fun spider-man for me to (pun?) marvel at the screen!

It's not that their pretentious because their good critics. Its because their try hards. Everything about them annoys me.

Either way if their so tired of Superhero movies why watch them? very odd process even as critics. Even those people have things they don't touch because it's over saturated and they can predict their own reaction.

 

[PsychBat!]

Only reviewer I had a problem with was Angry Joe.

At some instances in the review it seemed like AJ, Other Joe and whoever the hell that was needed to watch the movie again to pay attention.

Oh and they thought Spidey sucked. :/

EDIT: While I was sad that Mike and Rich did not like Civil War as much as I hoped, neither of them hated the movie for existing. What I like about them most is that they are speaking as regular people who frequently go to the movies that have their own preferences and stuff while at the same time have a knowledge of what happens behind the scenes that is largely subdued.

 

[Salsa]

I was thinking on the serious lack of Cap / Bucky bromance throughout the whole thing (and how good it is when its there) and then when you can get back to that they put him in ice again

fuck

 

[mreddie]

"I don't agree with them or find their opinions worthwhile or entertaining, therefore it's pretentious poopy baby diapers"

Thet aren't pretentious, Mike has clearly gotten tired of superhero movies and just came from batman v superman which was horrible so probably doesn't help that this movie wasn't the second coming of Jesus as some were hyping it up to be. They enjoyed Ant-man and at the end say they enjoyed the movie.

The surprising bit here is that Jay is usually the one who judges blockbusters way more harshly with the obvious example of jurassic world and now Mike is the one who was being overly negative throughout the whole thing.

They enjoyed ant man for what it was and back then Mike was basically saying he was waiting for the first Crack in the armor for superhero films, he's tired.

Yeah, so what if they agree/disagree. Plus, would BvS count as the crack? Problem is Hollywood is focused on remakes/reboots that nothing but the Capes genre is looking more easy on the eye. Fuck, this summer kinda sucks for movies.

The Space genre is coming back but everyone else seems eh.

 

[Imperfected]

The guys behind Best of the Worst are "pretentious?"

Huh?

They're part of the Milwaukee liberal elite, with their craft beers and dead-end blue collar jobs.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It's not that their pretentious because their good critics. Its because their try hards.

You've followed one of the most misused criticisms with one of the emptiest.

(man, of all the people to stick up for the critical capabilities of RLM, did anyone expect it'd be me putting on the cape?)

 

[Evil's Bane]

Saw the movie. Was probably the most solid entry in the MCU overall but it's hard to call it the best movie because it doesn't really stand well on it's own at all. I can't just recommend this to someone without telling them to go through all the baggage first. It succeeds as as fanservice for fans of this universe first and foremost. Luckily, there are a lot f fans of this universe out there, so that shouldn't be a problem for most.

I also feel like this movie isn't as conclusive as I was hoping. I thought we might finally be shutting the door on the Captain America related plot threads, but there's still no cure for Bucky(at the end of the film they just ice him again..). Despite this being a Captain America movie Steve doesn't really grow or change or anything.

I know Infinity War will probably cover all this stuff but man... the less baggage IW has to address when it comes around the better I say.

So yeah I'm kind of mixed on this movie, but it's a "I can't decide if this is a 7 or an 8" kind of mix, so it's a good thing.

A few other random thoughts:

-Cap and Sharon are gross and nobody can convince me otherwise

-I see people call steve soulless for not caring about civillians that much....I just imagined that as a soldier it's something he's used to seeing and learnt how to deal with.

-Spiderman was good but I wish he was in more of the movie.

-Black Panther was probably the strongest character in this thing and I can't wait for the solo movie.

-Characters that I wasn't so hot on like Natasha were written better in this. Overall this is the most solid the Avengers cast has ever been, writing and acting wise.

-I came out leaning more towards Tony's side, which surprised me because I was dead set on cap going in. Just goes to show how well done the conflict was

-I'm happy with how Zemo turned out. They seemed to know the villain isn't gonna get much time so they used what they had as effectively as possible.

So yeah, my big problem with this movie was the lack of a real conclusion. Other than that it's very solid.

 

[noonche]

I really liked the movie overall.

I thought Black Panther was awesome and really well integrated into the story. On the other hand I thought Spider-man just felt like he was shoe-horned in.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

It's not that their pretentious because their good critics. Its because their try hards. Everything about them annoys me.

How are they try hards? Stop using dismissing buzz words and insults, just give proper examples of what you don't like about them or their reviews.

 

[PsychBat!]

I do have to wonder, why do they (RLM) not review animated movies?

 

[RellyRell28]

After watching it a second time earlier today I kinda liked how Steve was telling Tony how he was "Surprised/Happy Howard got married". It really kinda makes me want to see the TFA again with the different Howard personalities.

Also upon watching again I realized that not just Steve but Tony himself kinda had a trigger point to lead him down this point with the lady in the beginning blaming him for her son's death.

 

[Cabbagehead]

You've followed one of the most misused criticisms with one of the emptiest.

(man, of all the people to stick up for the critical capabilities of RLM, did anyone expect it'd be me putting on the cape?)

Okay you...defend all you like. Still doesn't change the way i feel about RLM.



Plus i never go to Angry Joe for movie reviews. No one ever should.

 

[Salsa]

also; it sucks that we'll never get a Winter Soldier sequel

maybe they can channel something as good and focused as that with one of their new character films

idk, captain marvel?

cause dude they desperately need to. Russos are Whedon now and we're all just going bigger and bigger

 

[Mariolee]

You've followed one of the most misused criticisms with one of the emptiest.

(man, of all the people to stick up for the critical capabilities of RLM, did anyone expect it'd be me putting on the cape?)

Do you not like RLM or something lol

I do seem to remember you somewhat being annoyed by people repeating the talking points of their Star Wars reviews.

 

[Houndi101]

Only reviewer I had a problem with was Angry Joe.

At some instances in the review it seemed like AJ, Other Joe and whoever the hell that was needed to watch the movie again to pay attention.

Oh and they thought Spidey sucked. :/

EDIT: While I was sad that Mike and Rich did not like Civil War as much as I hoped, neither of them hated the movie for existing. What I like about them most is that they are speaking as regular people who frequently go to the movies that have their own preferences and stuff while at the same time have a knowledge of what happens behind the scenes that is largely subdued.

I honestly thought it was a joke about them not liking Spidey for the first 15 seconds...
Also there was some character they didn't know or remember, Agent 13 I think... they thought she was Peggys daughter c'mon guys...

 

[mreddie]

Does Wakanda have everything inside the mountains? Had to double check to see if I didn't see a building.

 

[PsychBat!]

Okay you...defend all you like. Still doesn't change the way i feel about RLM.

He's not defending them. He's pointing out that your criticism is largely shallow and misguided.

 

[Sblargh]

Yeah, so what if they agree/disagree. Plus, would BvS count as the crack? Problem is Hollywood is focused on remakes/reboots that nothing but the Capes genre is looking more easy on the eye. Fuck, this summer kinda sucks for movies.

The Space genre is coming back but everyone else seems eh.

Yeah, I think part of the reason I'm so into superhero movies in general is because everything else in the movies kind of suck. lol

Like, marvel movies aren't everything I hope out of the art of moviemaking, but they are the only thing that Hollywood is able to do that gets me excited these days; don't know if it says more about Hollywood or myself.

It's like, outside of Marvel and their very specific brand of blockbusters and fun action movies, script-writers collectively stopped giving a shit.

 

[Salsa]

Does Wakanda have everything inside the mountains? Had to double check to see if I didn't see a building.

I was expecting a pan to fuckin surreal tech and paradise society

 

[Cabbagehead]

He's not defending them. He's pointing out that your criticism is largely shallow and misguided.

Nothing misguided or shallow about my dislike for them. That's how i feel.

No discussion needed.

I was expecting a pan to fuckin surreal tech and paradise society

Suprised we didn't see more really.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Do you not like RLM or something lol

I do seem to remember you somewhat being annoyed by people repeating the talking points of their Star Wars reviews.

I think they're fine, and if they're gonna be the go-to for "average joe" film criticism online, you could absolutely do a hell of a lot worse. my problems tend to be with members of their audience who just regurgitate the shit they say without thinking it because they're sure it'll win them forum arguments, which exacerbates when their criticism is thin or not well-thought out.

They do an entertaining web-series. They're not the most insightful critics.

But I've eaten a fair amount of shit for talking about that kinda stuff in threads before, which has left some posters with the impression I hate them. Which I don't. I just get annoyed that some of their acolytes don't seem to understand what they're actually saying half the time they repeat it.

But even then - at least they're not Angry Joe fans. That whole bullshit is fucking befuddling to me. Like, if Kevin Smith is the talkshow equivalent of smoking weed, Angry Joe is that guy doing knife hits of pencil shavings and oregano and swearing to you that he can feel something happening, dude.

 

[neurosisxeno]

-Characters that I wasn't so hot on like Natasha were written better in this. Overall this is the most solid the Avengers cast has ever been, writing and acting wise.

This was my major take-away from the movie. They did a better job writing just about every character--Widow, BP, Spider-Man, SW, and Vision all get some major advancement despite being supporting characters. I can't think of any character that didn't get much improved writing over previous entries. People may love Joss Whedon, and his Avengers movies were fun, but the Russo's have done a way better job developing these characters than he could even dream of.

-I came out leaning more towards Tony's side, which surprised me because I was dead set on cap going in. Just goes to show how well done the conflict was

I hadn't really thought about it but I definitely understood Tony's argument more by the end of the film. I showed up wearing a Cap shirt and firmly supported him with no real exceptions going into it, but they did a good job making the audience sympathetic to Tony's cause.

 

[Sblargh]

I was expecting a pan to fuckin surreal tech and paradise society

Yeah, completely; I guess they didn't want to spend CG money on a post-credit scene.

 

[PsychBat!]

Nothing misguided or shallow about my dislike for them. That's how i feel.

No discussion needed.

Wrong, you said they were pretentious and then called them try-hards. Then you don't explain why.

Are you mad that they didn't like the movie like you did?

 

[Cabbagehead]

I think they're fine, and if they're gonna be the go-to for "average joe" film criticism online, you could absolutely do a hell of a lot worse. my problems tend to be with members of their audience who just regurgitate the shit they say without thinking it because they're sure it'll win them forum arguments, which exacerbates when their criticism is thin or not well-thought out.

They do an entertaining web-series. They're not the most insightful critics.

But I've eaten a fair amount of shit for talking about that kinda stuff in threads before, which has left some posters with the impression I hate them. Which I don't. I just get annoyed that some of their acolytes don't seem to understand what they're actually saying half the time they repeat it.

But even then - at least they're not Angry Joe fans. That whole bullshit is fucking befuddling to me. Like, if Kevin Smith is the talkshow equivalent of smoking weed, Angry Joe is that guy doing knife hits of pencil shavings and oregano and swearing to you that he can feel something happening, dude.

Beautiful analogy lol

Wrong, you said they were pretentious and then called them try-hards. Then you don't explain why.

Are you mad that they didn't like the movie like you did?

Not even close. Because I don't regularly go to them for critics or if they like a movie I like or not. But from the stuff i've watched they usually dislike what i dislike at least. But i never liked or understand why people like their shtick and it's comes off as i described early. Especially their fan base.

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

So are the five super soldier serum pouches Howard had ever going to be given an explanation or will the inevitable lack of an Agent Carter season three mean that we're just going to have to assume at some point in time Howard managed to successfully recreate the serum?

Or were the pouches HYDRA's, hence why Bucky was sent to kill them in the first place.

 

[mreddie]

Yeah, completely; I guess they didn't want to spend CG money on a post-credit scene.

But they added a Panther Canyon

 

[PsychBat!]

But even then - at least they're not Angry Joe fans. That whole bullshit is fucking befuddling to me. Like, if Kevin Smith is the talkshow equivalent of smoking weed, Angry Joe is that guy doing knife hits of pencil shavings and oregano and swearing to you that he can feel something happening, dude.

This reminds me, have you seen HISHE's review of BvS?

 

[Salsa]

the best thing about this entire film were Black Panther's little music cues

 

[neurosisxeno]

So are the five super soldier serum pouches Howard had ever going to be given an explanation or will the inevitable lack of an Agent Carter season three mean that we're just going to have to assume at some point in time Howard managed to successfully recreate the serum?

Or were the pouches HYDRA's, hence why Bucky was sent to kill them in the first place.

It's the super soldier serum he used to create Steve Rogers, but refined to be even more effective. He was delivering them to a lab somewhere, and Hydra intercepted him, then used them to create the super soldiers that were in Siberia--which Zemo killed before Cap/Bucky/Tony arrived to try and stop him (thinking he was going to unleash them, when in fact he wanted to destroy them).

 

[inky]

It's not that their pretentious because their good critics. Its because their try hards. Everything about them annoys me.

Either way if their so tired of Superhero movies why watch them? very odd process even as critics. Even those people have things they don't touch because it's over saturated and they can predict their own reaction.

Try hards in what sense? I saw their review and it actually came off as if they didn't even try to discuss the movie.

Jay was the only one who liked it and wanted to bring up scenes and moments in the movie only to be shut down with grunts.
Rich crossed his arms behind: "Tony was right", "the movie should've ended there", "there was no point to it". I don't think he said anything else.
Mike sounded bored and tired and kept wondering why the movie wasn't all fun schlock like Jurassic World (even though I guess it kind of was?) and preferred to reminisce about how fun and better Age of Ultron was; that one of all movies...

It wasn't even that they sounded "above" the entertainment, they just had dumb ideas about what the movie should've been instead, which was a hilarious come around because in a couple of cases it was things they've complained about before. In any case, they are more entertainers that sometimes are engaged enough to do actual analysis of a movie here and there, and in that sense, yeah, they are not for everyone, but tryhards? Don't see it myself.

the best thing about this entire film were Black Panther's little music cues

Those sounded to me like out of a dumb Kung Fu TV show where they are trying to tell you: this guy isn't like the others, he's a mystical dude. I found them a bit dumb.

 

[Sblargh]

But they added a Panther Canyon

They probably told an intern that his only job during the whole production of the movie was to make this big CG Panther statue. And then they forgot about him and just went like "oh, look, there's a CG Panther statue stock model here on our files for some reason, cool"

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Nothing misguided or shallow about my dislike for them. That's how i feel.

No discussion needed.




Suprised we didn't see more really.

At this point I hope you're aware that "it's just my opinion bro" without any explanation is a sad sad rebuttal but it seems like you simply have no opinion on them from a meaningful place so it's fruitless to try and begin a discussion.

I think they're fine, and if they're gonna be the go-to for "average joe" film criticism online, you could absolutely do a hell of a lot worse. my problems tend to be with members of their audience who just regurgitate the shit they say without thinking it because they're sure it'll win them forum arguments, which exacerbates when their criticism is thin or not well-thought out.

They do an entertaining web-series. They're not the most insightful critics.

But I've eaten a fair amount of shit for talking about that kinda stuff in threads before, which has left some posters with the impression I hate them. Which I don't. I just get annoyed that some of their acolytes don't seem to understand what they're actually saying half the time they repeat it.

But even then - at least they're not Angry Joe fans. That whole bullshit is fucking befuddling to me. Like, if Kevin Smith is the talkshow equivalent of smoking weed, Angry Joe is that guy doing knife hits of pencil shavings and oregano and swearing to you that he can feel something happening, dude.

Hey it's fair criticism and one that is very valid when it comes to the star wars prequel reviews. But to be fair almost everybody who don't care enough to dissect the films from their own point of view uses these as the go-to it isn't just fans.

I don't see fans just regurgitating what they've said outside of the prequel reviews or the boyhood one. On the latter though I largely agree with them.