Well I mean that's what he was getting at wasn't it? By being proactive I think he was hoping for some level of leeway and autonomy on how they self-regulate and it's why I think he's disgusted with both the Raft and Ross by the end of the movie.
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Captain America: Civil War SPOILER Thread - #TeamThanos
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Well I mean that's what he was getting at wasn't it? By being proactive I think he was hoping for some level of leeway and autonomy on how they self-regulate and it's why I think he's disgusted with both the Raft and Ross by the end of the movie.
Sounds good to me.
EDIT: Yeah, thinking back on that scene, he remarked on the tensile strength of Peter's webbing. Definitely his intention from jump street.
I hope he for her That he is like Data, capable of multiple technices.
Wheeljack539
Member
Among the first thing Tony did when he got Bucky pinned to a wall was bring out an arm missile point blank...
Tony's problem is phrasing. He's trying so hard to close Cap on signing that he starts rambling. All he had to do is twist it by saying they [authorities] were going to come for her and he got them off her back for the time being until this all blows over. Hell, it would have been great if he told Wanda first so then he'd have the moral high ground had she agreed. And with how she was still hurting over what happened in Lagos she might have just done that if given the choice.
With that argument though Cap might not have liked it he would have seen both the logic and that the decision to lay low was hers.
It was neccessary to show how out of it Tony was as he was already on edge when he met the woman/mother by the elevator on the movie. It shows that Tony's dealing with a lot more stress than usual and the mother along the accords only adds to the building stress. That stress finally snaps when the video of his parents' murder plays.
Cap went in because as he said he was the less likely to get killed. Sharon told him that they were going in to kill Bucky and as we saw after the flashbangs the first few who entered through the window had guns blazing. Cap basically during that stairwell fight was protecting both sides. Black Panther escalated things with his appearance. Also note that the helicopter that shot them also fired missles with civilians still on the ground.
They don't talk back, though.
I think Cap would have signed had Tony just said Wanda was benched until her legal status in the US was sorted out.
That's exactly what he should have done. Incidentally, if Wanda's legal status is up in the air as far as being in the US is concerned, benching her until it's sorted isn't unreasonable.
That's exactly what he should have done. Incidentally, if Wanda's legal status is up in the air as far as being in the US is concerned, benching her until it's sorted isn't unreasonable.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The whole accord thing really just boils down to Cap being right in a comic book world and Tony being right in the real world and the MCU sort of straddling the two in an awkward way. I really appreciate that, actually, but I think I'm going to get more out of the discussion around that in the coming month than I did from the film itself
Because when its a situation like Ultron yes, kneecapping the ability of the Avengers to cross borders to save the planet would be catastrophic. But what if they decide that al-Assad is also a supervillain? And then two years later it turns out Syria is a shitshow and the Avengers are too busy fighting the Green Goblin? Extranational interventionalism is fundamentally political.
Because when its a situation like Ultron yes, kneecapping the ability of the Avengers to cross borders to save the planet would be catastrophic. But what if they decide that al-Assad is also a supervillain? And then two years later it turns out Syria is a shitshow and the Avengers are too busy fighting the Green Goblin? Extranational interventionalism is fundamentally political.
More_Badass
Member
Yeah, Tony tried to obliterate Bucky's head at least twice in that fight. With a hand repulsor, and then with the missile
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
In the comics, they had kids.
That were made by magic.
That turned out to be some demonic trick in the end.
Comics are stupid.
I really liked their comics and was pissed when they retconned away the kids and wrecked their characters.
Arent their New Avengers kids a thing anymore?
#3 - Zemo didn't happen upon the Hydra agent, he knew he was Bucky's old handler from the leaked Hydra files, he knew what he was looking for when he interrogated him. Zemo even says during the interrogation that the Hydra agent giving the 1991 mission report would save him some time, implying he knew most of the history already and just needed proof at that point.
#6 - Cap was definitely selfish in this movie but I didn't find it out of character. He was actually saving those policemen, they would have gotten slaughtered by Bucky if he weren't there.
Are you talking about Wiccan/Billy Kaplan? Because they're not related.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I've pretty much given up on comics, I don't know what the current status is. They've retconned away by interest.
The writer who got them together in the comics, and also wrote their two miniseries, is one of my favorite comics writers. He also wrote the Batman comics that 1989 Batman primarily cribs from. Dude's way underrated.
Also the Speedster Twin of him... But wasnt this the point of Childrens Crusade?
Kaplan's only ever been more of a protege than anything else, afaik.
Completely missed that part. All I remember that happened between them when they were close was the chest RT arm melt and Bucky crushing one of his repulsor hands. So he wanted him dead. Again, given how everything played out in the movie, I go back to my original stance in that I don't blame him for it.
Tony's actions were rash, but I honestly believe that Cap wouldn't think that he had any intention of keeping her detained indefinitely, or handing her over to the U.S. govt (worse case scenario). He definitely could've handled the situation better, but I still agree with her being shelved ASAP.
gutter_trash
Banned
Tony Stark had no disregard about recruiting a green teenager to fight alongside him risking his life against other Super or Enhanced humans.
Wheeljack539
Member
Same. I can't condone what Tony tried to do but I can't really blame him either.
If they had the time it could've been worked out I believe. Zemo unfortunately unleashed the Winter Soldier on everyone which makes Bucky look extremely bad but by that point Cap through Zemo knew there was more at play but got thrown into the river.
The hilarity being that Wanda wasn't going to do a damn thing until she realised they were keeping her prisoner. And even then she didn't do anything until Hawkeye showed up and told her she didn't have to put up with it if she didn't want to.
And Wanda still didn't want to go until Vision showed up and got into a fight with Hawkeye.
StarCreator
Member
I'm aware of it and actually initially searched for an image of the Korean one to find the image is 404'd. But the point is that it's the character's handwriting. It doesn't matter if it's the actor's or not.
Whoever the writer is, probably wrote every list though since the handwriting is pretty consistent even with the different content, and we see Troubleman being written in realtime.
DeviantBoi
Member
There was that video of him stopping a runaway car.
I think he figured he could handle a couple of punches.
I don't think he was counting on Giant Man, though.
As Age of Ultron showed, Cap lives for the fight, pretty sure the direction the MCU will take is that he will realize that, get over that, and then lift Thor's hammer.
Wheeljack539
Member
Cap doesn't live for the fight. The fight is all Cap has left which is the sad thing.
His specific instructions were to not fight.
I guess its essentially the same thing, just different wording.
Now he's got Sharon and two bro's.
And all Stark has is his robot butler and Atrophy Machine.
gutter_trash
Banned
he had instructions? probably didn't hear it because movie goers crunch on their popcorn too loud
"Hey Mr. Stark what should I do?"
"What we discussed, keep your distance, web him up"
Spider-Man asked Tony what the plan was, Tony said to stay back and focus on webbing people from a distance.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Tony's got 36 hours, so he goes to Queens to check out a guy he saw in a YouTube video.
Too much in this movie was just to get the characters into position to fight, IMHO.
Or, he could have said, "Can I have a bunch of those web shooters and fluid? I'll teach you to be a superhero later if you do."
Too much in this movie was just to get the characters into position to fight, IMHO.
Or, he could have said, "Can I have a bunch of those web shooters and fluid? I'll teach you to be a superhero later if you do."
Doesnt take away the fact that he basically blackmailed him to join up. Ill tell Aunt May if you dont come with me
What? No he didn't. Where does he say that he'll reveal his secret if he doesn't sign up for the fight.
He threatened to tell Aunt May at least twice during their conversation. Thats why he webbed his hand to the door knob when Stark went to talk to her.
iirc, that was when he was trying to get him to admit to his powers and crime fighting
Its the same thing. That said his tone was more like a bluff. Same thing when he threatens to tell Aunt May about him if he didn't stop fighting and go back.
You're not supporting your argument that he blackmailed Peter into going to Germany, that hadn't even been brought up when he webbed his hand to the door, Tony just wanted to be heard out without the illusion of not knowing about Spider-Man at that point.
This.
Yeah, this is where I landed on it too.
Being righteous doesnt always make you right, and thats been my issue with Cap since Day 1.
Tony is portrayed as someone who has it all but also has nothing as we learn his relationships with his parents, and pepper are pretty strained. But he is always trying to do the right thing, philanthropy, straight up charity, heck he is funding the Avengers at this point after shield has gone underground
and also crazy good job on Young Tony at the start, yikes, what was that, magic?
BronsonLee
Member
Holy fuck
Could you IMAGINE if Marvel had done that, just had Peter in as a tease and not even do any Spidey shit
People would've been maaaaaaaad
Green Mamba
Member
Sure, but as soon as Hawkeye gets a throwable object in his hands he's a genuine threat. Ant-Man and Falcon are nothing without their equipment.
But the sanctity of Peter Parker's tailor-made suit being done by himself would have not been compromised. History would have won.
longdi
Banned
Can't believe the Tony hate. 
He is a billionaire philanthropist, Mr Avenger himself. His contribution to the MCU society FAR outweighs the rest. He fucking self-lessly took a nuclear arrow to his knee. You gotta forgive him for his stress, and the fact that he is the most remorseful among his peers for their collateral damage, shows how real a hero he is.
Unlike Steve, who simply brush aside and psychopath Wanda that collateral damage is part and parcel of their job, they have lost 1 but saved a 100. But of course by the end of CW, it shows up Capt as a fucking hypocrite. In his desire to save his old war buddy, he gives the L to society, brings his loyal friends along down the hell hole. Capt asking Hawkguy out of retirement is far far worse than Tony recruiting Spidey. Im sure Tony has tons of super-hero viewfinder cams across the globe. He can see Spidey stopping a flying car in mid air, and all he asked of Spidey is to stay back and webbed down Capt. How about Hawkguy? He is just mere mortal family man, with bows and arrows, and a newborn kid, why did Capt want him along to fight against the UN, cross path with Ironman, and then duke it out with 4 deadly Winter Soldiers? Cos' he is a selfish hypocrite, weakling and coward to do it himself.
Tony did not draft the accords, it is the world governments and they are coming right up the Avengers doorsteps(funded by Tony btw). A wise hero would think through and true, while a selfish daft would choose to punch his own ways around. Tony did the smart and right thing. He knows it is something that needs to be done now, but his character in MCU was never going to give away the Avengers rights. The ending of CW, Tony gave the middle finger to Ross, while the shitty Captain tried to take the higher ground by writing a snarky letter to Mr Stank.
Tony did not send out his Iron Men to hunt down Winter Soldier did he? If the tables were turned and Tony had killed WS, would Capt really decapitated Tony? I feel based on his MCU character arc, Capt would have done so and then.
Why did Tony and Capt acted this way? We just need to look at their growing up days. Tony lost his loving parents, he had to continue the Stark legacy on his own. He learnt of compassion and grief. What about Steve? He grew up being bullied and trolled, and his only relief was his BFF Bucky. No wonder he has that passive-aggressive streak, and his ingrained conscious is forever indebted to Bucky. In this way, he would rather save 1 Bucky and doomed the 100 others, which is what he went with. :/
People just loved Steve because of how prominent his passive side is during peace-talky times. However his actions are just of a selfish soldier out of his times. Capt is the hero the fans loved but do not deserved.
Tony might have a starky mouth, but the golden warmth of his heart keeps everyone snugly at night. #wubTony
He is a billionaire philanthropist, Mr Avenger himself. His contribution to the MCU society FAR outweighs the rest. He fucking self-lessly took a nuclear arrow to his knee. You gotta forgive him for his stress, and the fact that he is the most remorseful among his peers for their collateral damage, shows how real a hero he is.
Unlike Steve, who simply brush aside and psychopath Wanda that collateral damage is part and parcel of their job, they have lost 1 but saved a 100. But of course by the end of CW, it shows up Capt as a fucking hypocrite. In his desire to save his old war buddy, he gives the L to society, brings his loyal friends along down the hell hole. Capt asking Hawkguy out of retirement is far far worse than Tony recruiting Spidey. Im sure Tony has tons of super-hero viewfinder cams across the globe. He can see Spidey stopping a flying car in mid air, and all he asked of Spidey is to stay back and webbed down Capt. How about Hawkguy? He is just mere mortal family man, with bows and arrows, and a newborn kid, why did Capt want him along to fight against the UN, cross path with Ironman, and then duke it out with 4 deadly Winter Soldiers? Cos' he is a selfish hypocrite, weakling and coward to do it himself.
Tony did not draft the accords, it is the world governments and they are coming right up the Avengers doorsteps(funded by Tony btw). A wise hero would think through and true, while a selfish daft would choose to punch his own ways around. Tony did the smart and right thing. He knows it is something that needs to be done now, but his character in MCU was never going to give away the Avengers rights. The ending of CW, Tony gave the middle finger to Ross, while the shitty Captain tried to take the higher ground by writing a snarky letter to Mr Stank.
Tony did not send out his Iron Men to hunt down Winter Soldier did he? If the tables were turned and Tony had killed WS, would Capt really decapitated Tony? I feel based on his MCU character arc, Capt would have done so and then.
Why did Tony and Capt acted this way? We just need to look at their growing up days. Tony lost his loving parents, he had to continue the Stark legacy on his own. He learnt of compassion and grief. What about Steve? He grew up being bullied and trolled, and his only relief was his BFF Bucky. No wonder he has that passive-aggressive streak, and his ingrained conscious is forever indebted to Bucky. In this way, he would rather save 1 Bucky and doomed the 100 others, which is what he went with. :/
People just loved Steve because of how prominent his passive side is during peace-talky times. However his actions are just of a selfish soldier out of his times. Capt is the hero the fans loved but do not deserved.
Tony might have a starky mouth, but the golden warmth of his heart keeps everyone snugly at night. #wubTony
Ant-man is a professional burglar, he clearly can do some things without his gear.
Maybe not combat but you know...
Falcon can talk about traumas and make me cry.
Tony Stark knows my secret identity and no one else does, he has threatened to tell Aunt May for whatever reason.
He said he didnt want to go to Germany and Stark coerced/manipulated him into going.
Tony Stark threatened to tell May if Peter wasn't going to have an honest conversation with him. That is not the same as blackmailing him into going to Germany, it is not the same as blackmailing him into fighting. At no point did Tony threaten or coerce Peter into going to Germany with the threat of telling May. Take your L.
So Tony blackmails Peter into an honest conversation? You see the flaw in that, right?
Compare that to Cap recruiting Ant-Man where:
a) They knew Ant-Man could hold his own against another superhero.
b) Ant-Man voluntarily signed up.
Tony manipulated a teenager into joining his team, implying that otherwise he'd tell the teens Aunt about what he was up to.
Just watch it during the weekend, there'll still be a huge crowd
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