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Captain America: Civil War SPOILER Thread - #TeamThanos
- Thread starter Son Of D
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It would be hilarious if May already knew and that's what she and Tony were talking about before Peter entered the apartment.
BronsonLee
Member
Scrooge McDuck
Member
He never actually made any threats, you know? He bluntly asks if she knows and Peter is all "no she doesn't know. She'd freak out! I'd freak out!" and Tony just leaves it at that.
Even at the end Tony simply goes "come on, just come with me to Germany. I'll just tell Aunt Hottie we're going on a field study."
Scrooge McDuck
Member
He's talking about telling Aunt May that he wants to take Peter on a field trip when Peter webs him. He's being really pushy, yes, but even at the end there he's just preparing a cover story.
Go to work for a few hours and Iron Man fanatics take over the thread, wth?
At the end of the day, the only two heroes that are pro-accords are Rhodey and Vision.
Tony - already broke them when he went to help Cap, because the accords suck, you know.
BP - protects Bucky from those that would hunt him (due to accords) and is on good terms with Cap.
As far as spidey is concerned he was never asked to sign the accords, but he tells Tony something like "someone with my powers should do something when they can" (variant on the great power speech); not "someone with my powers should do something when they can if approved by sub-committee 1a after form 24C has been submitted in triplicate."
At the end of the day, the only two heroes that are pro-accords are Rhodey and Vision.
Tony - already broke them when he went to help Cap, because the accords suck, you know.
BP - protects Bucky from those that would hunt him (due to accords) and is on good terms with Cap.
As far as spidey is concerned he was never asked to sign the accords, but he tells Tony something like "someone with my powers should do something when they can" (variant on the great power speech); not "someone with my powers should do something when they can if approved by sub-committee 1a after form 24C has been submitted in triplicate."
More_Badass
Member
I thought it was obvious that both time, Tony was bluffing/"blackmailing" about telling Aunt May that he's Spiderman. Like especially in the apartment, where he was asking Peter who knew, and Peter said May would freak out if she knew what he was doing
You're the Ant-Man of MCU Gaf.
Yeah that's what his tone while saying it made me think, like more of a "what will he do if I threaten him with this?"
You mean the Hawk up there in his nest?
As a viewer it was obivious to me but Peters reaction seemed like he really got worried.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
But he never actually does it, yar? I mean, I guess we could argue whether he actually has the intention, or that if he'd eventually resort to it. But people have been throwing words like "bluff", "threat" and "blackmail" whereas he never actually does or even implies any of those things.
That is the crux for me. There is no definitive solution or answer. I can understand both sides, both fucked up (despite making the right calls far more often).
You can tell a bluff from someone's tone.
FullMetaltech
Member
You mean Arrow Guy!
BewareTheBatsie
Member
Spidey's involvement overall is just messy. While I love him in it, it's clear that there really wasn't much of an excuse for him to be in other than "let's have Spider-Man appear". Which is fine, but just comes off as ridiculous as Tony choosing this kid for help out of nowhere.
Would have been nice to get maybe a mention or something of Tony being rejected by a couple other heroes around New York, some sort of nod to the TV shows.
Would have been nice to get maybe a mention or something of Tony being rejected by a couple other heroes around New York, some sort of nod to the TV shows.
I honestly don't believe that Tony wanted to follow the Accords to the letter. Hence his explaining that once they signed them, they could make changes afterwards.
Jag
Member
And that's why you need to see these movies on opening weekend. Not that its a huge spoiler, but with an ensemble movie, it shows when certain players interact.
Like with the final fight between Cap, Bucky and Iron Man. I knew it was coming from the trailers, but they did a nice piece of misdirection by having a truce between Cap and Iron Man at the end and made it look like they were going to fight the 5 super soliders. That was ruined by the trailers since I knew Cap, Bucky and IM still had to have their epic battle.
BronsonLee
Member
Bitch I'll make you care
Scrooge McDuck
Member
Mmm, you mean when he said "and your unusually attractive aunt doesn't know?" It honestly sounds normal and nonchalant to me. He even quickly drops it and changes the conversation himself.
I mean when he is going to the door
GuitarAtomik
Member
What am I reading here? None of these words make any sense together. Am I having a stroke?
I don't disagree. The marketing for this movie was catchy but there is no binary here for me - I like all these characters and enjoyed the way the movie set things up so that you can empathize with them all.
In the end, I think Tony got dealt the losing hand though as the accords, which started the whole team rift have been pretty much ignored by all but a very few by end of story.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
What's the bluff there, though? "If you're not coming with me to Germany, then I'll ask for your hot aunt's permission to take you on a field trip?"
Like, he's just saying that, but the underlying tone is that he'd reveal Spider-Man's identity?
I don't remember what is exactly and when during that scene, I remember him saying he would tell his aunt about him being Spider-Man.
Either way it still works as a bluff if that's what he said, he wanted to see what Peter would do.
Don't. Don't do that to yourself, Bronson. This is MCU-gaf. This is trolls and fanboys and nothing you were ever trained for.
Sad Affleck
Member
This was my gut reaction after watching the movie.
After some thought I am sure that Tony was right. The Avengers are fighting to protect people but they should not be without any sort of supervision, checks and balances. Had they ignored the will of all these countries then they wouldn't be the earth's protectors, they would be the earth's oppressors. Even if an extreme situation might sometime force them to break the law, it doesn't mean that the law is unnecessary or wrong just for being there. Every legal system has clauses that negate the illegal part of an action if that action is being taken to protect an even greater good than the law. Tony's side put up a reasonable argument and Cap rejected it because he didn't want to compromise.
After some thought I am sure that Tony was right. The Avengers are fighting to protect people but they should not be without any sort of supervision, checks and balances. Had they ignored the will of all these countries then they wouldn't be the earth's protectors, they would be the earth's oppressors. Even if an extreme situation might sometime force them to break the law, it doesn't mean that the law is unnecessary or wrong just for being there. Every legal system has clauses that negate the illegal part of an action if that action is being taken to protect an even greater good than the law. Tony's side put up a reasonable argument and Cap rejected it because he didn't want to compromise.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
The conversation basically goes like... Tony asks Peter to come with him to Germany. Peter doesn't want to because he can't just go willy-nilly. Tony says that he'd ask Aunt May's permission under the cover of taking Peter on a field trip.
Then Peter goes "waiiit"
*webs Tony hand*
"Don't tell Aunt May".
I guess one could interpret that scene as Tony pushing Peter's buttons? Wanting to see him react to his threat of asking Aunt May's permission?
But I think there's a big room for the interpretation of Tony just being a pushy guy that goes "come on, come ooon. I'll take care of everything" and then Peter just relents but reminds Tony to stay hush-hush about the whole Spidey thing.
StarCreator
Member
I think in our world yes, they would need supervision if superheroes started showing up everywhere. In their world with Shield/Hydra situation just happening Cap does not trust government supervision.
Like Cap said they are shifting the blame of the consequences of their actions and he does not want that, he feels they are the best decision makers for protecting peoples lives.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Is Tony going to fuck Aunt May or what? They were about to hop on each other's lap before Peter walked in.
That's what "Homecoming" is going to be about, isn't it?!
That's what "Homecoming" is going to be about, isn't it?!
Except we're dealing with a universe where -
1) A think-tank was secretly a terrorist organisation and managed to manipulate the Vice President in such a way that he allowed them to take the President of the United States hostage.
2) SHIELD, the premier spy group, was infiltrated by a terrorist organisation and corrupted from the inside out.
3) The World Security Council threatened to nuke Manhattan not even an hour after an alien invasion WHILE The Avengers were holding said alien invasion to as small a pocket of the island as possible.
And the solution? Get the UN involved.
Not to mention how Thunderbolt Ross, US Secretary of State, is leading the charge and is the guy who experimented on one of his soldiers and turned him into a gigantic ID monster because of his irrational hatred of Bruce Banner, a guy who left America. Ross's campaign ended up in an illegal field manouver when he invaded a fucking university to try and capture Banner, who wasn't even Hulked out at the time.
But hey, it's the UN. I'm sure they'd sort it out. I mean IT'S THE UN.
Wheeljack539
Member
More like Tony was turning up the charm to make May as comfortable and in a good a mood as possible.
I really love that when the camera POV was mostly from Peter's that you could see both Tony and May trying to get Peter to do something/react with their eyes.
Yep, yep and yep. In the world that they live in the only government we can trust is Wakanda...
T'challa better slap Stark the next time they meet.
Can't believe the Tony hate.
He is a billionaire philanthropist, Mr Avenger himself. His contribution to the MCU society FAR outweighs the rest. He fucking self-lessly took a nuclear arrow to his knee. You gotta forgive him for his stress, and the fact that he is the most remorseful among his peers for their collateral damage, shows how real a hero he is.
Unlike Steve, who simply brush aside and psychopath Wanda that collateral damage is part and parcel of their job, they have lost 1 but saved a 100. But of course by the end of CW, it shows up Capt as a fucking hypocrite. In his desire to save his old war buddy, he gives the L to society, brings his loyal friends along down the hell hole. Capt asking Hawkguy out of retirement is far far worse than Tony recruiting Spidey. Im sure Tony has tons of super-hero viewfinder cams across the globe. He can see Spidey stopping a flying car in mid air, and all he asked of Spidey is to stay back and webbed down Capt. How about Hawkguy? He is just mere mortal family man, with bows and arrows, and a newborn kid, why did Capt want him along to fight against the UN, cross path with Ironman, and then duke it out with 4 deadly Winter Soldiers? Cos' he is a selfish hypocrite, weakling and coward to do it himself.
Tony did not draft the accords, it is the world governments and they are coming right up the Avengers doorsteps(funded by Tony btw). A wise hero would think through and true, while a selfish daft would choose to punch his own ways around. Tony did the smart and right thing. He knows it is something that needs to be done now, but his character in MCU was never going to give away the Avengers rights. The ending of CW, Tony gave the middle finger to Ross, while the shitty Captain tried to take the higher ground by writing a snarky letter to Mr Stank.
Tony did not send out his Iron Men to hunt down Winter Soldier did he? If the tables were turned and Tony had killed WS, would Capt really decapitated Tony? I feel based on his MCU character arc, Capt would have done so and then.
Why did Tony and Capt acted this way? We just need to look at their growing up days. Tony lost his loving parents, he had to continue the Stark legacy on his own. He learnt of compassion and grief. What about Steve? He grew up being bullied and trolled, and his only relief was his BFF Bucky. No wonder he has that passive-aggressive streak, and his ingrained conscious is forever indebted to Bucky. In this way, he would rather save 1 Bucky and doomed the 100 others, which is what he went with. :/
People just loved Steve because of how prominent his passive side is during peace-talky times. However his actions are just of a selfish soldier out of his times. Capt is the hero the fans loved but do not deserved.
Tony might have a starky mouth, but the golden warmth of his heart keeps everyone snugly at night. #wubTony
Underrated post btw. Just quoting because it's better than yet another string of Bronson-centered posts!
Jag
Member
That's true. Everything Cap has been through reinforces his belief that the powerful do not care about the little guy. Cap has been fighting bullies his entire life.
Sad Affleck
Member
I understand all that, but you can't reject any sort of supervision based on the belief that everyone is corrupt by default. In the First Avenger Cap himself disobeyed orders, rescued prisoners of war and then surrendered himself for disciplinary action to his commander. Cap knew back then that the chain of command and the existence of a certain hierarchy is important for accountability.
Cap said that the accords are only shifting the blame, but when did the Avengers accept any blame for their failings or misjudgements?
When does Tony?
And yes, the Accords shift the blame. It's that stupid 'Superman/Thor are to blame' logic. The circular nonsense Vision spouts, where heroes create their own enemies. Ignoring that Red Skull and Hydra existed before Captain America in this universe.
That street could also go both ways. There was nothing saying that the Avengers couldn't hold a lens to the U.N. or the U.S. government either. What better group to keep those guys honest, or to further root out the corrupt/dregs of HYDRA?
EDIT: Hell, doesn't the world still think Fury is dead? There's your best guy for getting dirt on the institutions that manage the Avengers, right there.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I was working under an assumption that Bucky managed to get out of that pit and it's just the two slugging it out.
Ant-Man is the GOAT. Come on, don't give him that kind of cred.
love u bronson
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