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[Neoxon]

I just noticed that Spidey's gloves have black fabric between the fingers.

 

[icespide]

I just noticed that Spidey's gloves have black fabric between the fingers.

those might just be shadows

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Right, thanks! I keep getting confused over it, because I do think Steve has known the whole time but then someone pops up with an argument as to why he didn't know.

He said as much in the movie. Even lied the first time Tony asked..that's when he lost me.

Why are all of you still wasting words with spatula?

lol..

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

He said as much in the movie. Even lied the first time Tony asked..that's when he lost me.

Yeah, I admit I was a bit confused because Tony even calls him out on his bullshit and later I was like smh at Steve thinking he could actually lie his way out of that.

 

[guek]

Isn't there literally a line in winter soldier where he tells Natasha "I'm always honest" after she asks him about his last kiss?

Damnit Steve!

 

[Number_6]

Yeah, I admit I was a bit confused because Tony even calls him out on his bullshit and later I was like smh at Steve thinking he could actually lie his way out of that.

Maybe he knew they were murdered, but didn't know it was specifically Bucky? Like, not 100% for sure?

The accident was implied to be a murder in Winter Soldier, but it's not like Cap saw the video back then.

 

[Einchy]

Isn't there literally a line in winter soldier where he tells Natasha "I'm always honest" after she asks him about his last kiss?

Damnit Steve!

To be fair, at that point he still didn't have anything to lie about.

And is it REALLY a lie if Tony never asked him? This is on Tony, he should have been like, "Steve, do you know who killed my parents?".

Tony continues to fuck up.

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

Maybe he knew they were murdered, but didn't know it was specifically Bucky? Like, not 100% for sure?

The accident was implied to be a murder in Winter Soldier, but it's not like Cap saw the video back then.

Thing is, if he didn't know it was Bucky, why would he keep it a secret?

Steve has known they were murdered, definitely and with the file Widow gave him at the end, it's likely he knew it was Bucky too.

 

[Jest Chillin]

You're not actually writing anything that counters what I said. Do you even know why Ant-Man is at the airport? Neither do it. I guess to go Big or Go Home?

Literally for the same reason thst Tony gets Spiderman. To be a secret Ace in the Hole. Antman is potent and wouldn't have been expected in Siberia or The Airport (since Cap correctly predicted that Tony would attempt to intercept them).

In fact, the Airport scene showcases that both Spidey and Antman effectively monkey-wrenched the opposing team. In the end, Caps teams willingness to get captured so he and Bucky could escape and Scotts experience (vs Spideys inexperience) made a big difference. Even then, only through Widow's being unwilling to stand directly against Cap secured the escape as BP is just too beast for any of them.

 

[Number_6]

Thing is, if he didn't know it was Bucky, why would he keep it a secret?

Steve has known they were murdered, definitely and with the file Widow gave him at the end, it's likely he knew it was Bucky too.

I guess I'm splitting hairs. I was saying he could strongly suspect Bucky and keep it a secret without actually knowing.

Anyway, Cap isn't perfect.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Why did Auntman turn to Scarlett and say "and I know you too!" during the Auntman reveal? Didn't he just ride with her in the same van, receive the same briefing, etc?

 

[ShinoguTakeruKoeru]

Isn't there literally a line in winter soldier where he tells Natasha "I'm always honest" after she asks him about his last kiss?

Damnit Steve!

He says it at the scene where him and Nat are at Falcon's home resting after the SHIELD bunker was bombed. Nat saying "If it was the other way around, would you trust me to save you?" or something like that, and Cap goes "I would now. And I'm always honest."

I love that scene so much, Nat going "I owe you" and Steve just brushing that aside, "No no, it's okay." I feel like literally any other adult male who wasn't Banner or Barton would take that I.O.U. from Romanov.

Why did Auntman turn to Scarlett and say "and I know you too!" during the Auntman reveal? Didn't he just ride with her in the same van, receive the same briefing, etc?

I am now imagining Scott Lang shifting into Aunt May and it's really messing me up.

He was probably asleep the whole trip. Yes, even on the plane.

 

[Wheeljack539]

Yeah. He knew. Folks keep claiming it was only "implied" for some reason. Not sure why..

Because of this scene with Zola: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62cjheqv-nw

Heavily implied but not outright stated.

 

[Einchy]

Yeah. He knew. Folks keep claiming it was only "implied" for some reason. Not sure why..

What I find weird is the people who say he knew but he found out because of the files Black-Widow leaked. Why would they have a scene where the audience finds out this critical information that's shown to Black Widow and Cap but have Cap only find out off-screen?

Makes no sense.

 

[Wheeljack539]

Why did Auntman turn to Scarlett and say "and I know you too!" during the Auntman reveal? Didn't he just ride with her in the same van, receive the same briefing, etc?

He was likely asleep the entire time. "What time zone is it?"

 

[GuitarAtomik]

He was probably asleep the whole trip. Yes, even on the plane.

It would be kind of funny if Clint picked him up first and he had slept through the entirety of the Vision encounter.

 

[Renekton]

Thing is, if he didn't know it was Bucky, why would he keep it a secret?

Steve has known they were murdered, definitely and with the file Widow gave him at the end, it's likely he knew it was Bucky too.

I think he put 2+2 together and strongly suspected Bucky but was afraid to confirm directly. Then he finally asked during the flight to Siberia.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

He was likely asleep the entire time. "What time zone is it?"

But he mentions being briefed in the van.....

 

[longdi]

To be fair, Tony is also responsible for building an AI that ended up nearly destroying Sokovia and killing hundreds of citizens. If people give Cap flak for saying that collateral damage is part of the job (which I disagree with, just because people recognize realities, doesn't mean they're reckless because of it), then that fact about Tony should not be ignored. He is completely responsible for the crap at Sokovia and yet he expects people to side with the Sokovia Accords out of something that Tony himself is completely responsible for. It's hypocritical of Tony Stark.

As for Cap, Like I mentioned before, he's not brushing it off. He recognizes that there will be collateral damage, but the whole idea as you mentioned is that saving 100 lives and losing 1 is better than losing all 101 lives. It's unrealistic to expect that you will always save everybody, even if you have the most OP of powers at your disposal. Also, how is Cap a hypocrite? He refused to sign the Accords after what happened to S.H.I.E.L.D., so how could anyone be comfortable with signing your rights over to an entity that could have very sinister motivations and interests? Even if Ross's office was clean, you'd still be forced to work under an entity that deems certain events as relevant to them, while disregarding others as irrelevant and not needing heroes, even if it means more people are getting killed.

Stark was angry that the Winter Soldier killed his parents, but how is eye-for-an-eye the right way to go about things? Stark doesn't take into account that the Winter Soldier was brainwashed and a completely different persona when given the Hydra Code words. For a genius, he is completely ruled by his emotions. In essence, there's an irony about fighting Bucky when you realize that he was essentially Hydra's version of Sokovian Accords, where Bucky was a weapon to be used on anything that Hydra deemed in conflict with its interests. That Stark doesn't realize this is very telling of his character.

From what I interpreted in the movie, it seems like the logic in Hawkeye's return is to pay a favour to Wanda after what happened to Quicksilver in AoU, so I can't see how that's bad. And even then, he had a choice. Unlike Stark selfishly going after a teenaged boy to fight a man's war, knowing full well that he doesn't have the power or combat capabilities of the other Avengers. You even see the remorse in Tony's face when he sees Spider-Man getting injured and thinking that he was dead. Stark continues to showcase his reckless disregard for others.

Tony didn't draft the Accords but why is that relevant? The problem is he's pushing other Avengers to sign it, in spite of the fact that it was his complete recklessness in building Ultron that caused the mess in the first place. Also, I find it ironic that you'd use the smart/daft hero dichotomy. A smart hero would also be wary of what the Sokovia Accords mean for not only their job description(s), but also in terms of the third party/governmental interests. What if the government decides that you cannot help people in turmoil because stupid political squabbling between two countries? Is it right to let politics override basic morality? Tony Stark did the same thing in Iron Man 1 by destroying a group of terrorists using his weapons in Afghanistan. He didn't care about political nonsense, just do the right fucking thing and defeated terrorists to save Gulmira. Also the letter was snarky? Did we watch the same movie? Cap basically said "I'm sorry for not telling you the whole story, but I want you to know I'll always be available if you need me", coupled with the burner phone.

I'm amazed people think Tony have a heart of gold, when he's pretty guilty of his own transgressions and doing things that are emotional but have no basis in rationality (such as desperately forcing Cap to sign the Accords in the 2nd Act). This is the same guy who said "you started a war" in response to Cap's "we don't need to fight." That's not a smart hero, he's as punchy daft as you describe.

I don't quite remember how ultron came to life(AoU was forgettable), but I always thought it was a weak plot device to pile more shit on the Tony character. Tony is a science genius with a super ai helping him, I would think he makes logical decisions and takes calculated risks, even the normally conservative hulk agreed with him on the ultron project. I disagreed with Steve that the safest hands are theirs as its been shown heroes can still turn rogue either thru mind control or personal bff getting in the way.

Steve is the one that don't think things thru. He wants to punch his way out the WW way. So what's going to happen after capturing zemo and defeating WS, you know after you wreck an airport, going up against the world who just wanted some assurance? The world doesn't work that way anymore..

Now if the ultron project didn't get trolled by an infinity gem, the world would have been a better place. If Steve didn't turn the accord situation worse, Tony would still have some power play over the 117 nations. Tony is a guy that wants to do the greater good, but things out of his hands keep dealing him a bad card. Steve on the other hand, still like to think he can take things in his own hands just because he has super powers.

And again, Tony would have properly analysed Spidey and know that he is super human, he is not going up against real bad guys like WS or ulton bots, just to reel some friends in. And Tony didn't tried to crush Spidey with a trailer.

If Steve was such a great person, he would turn away hawkguy. But he didn't and he is also liar for his own good. Selfish dick this Cap is.

I get why people like Cap more, this is a super heroe cine verse, Steve agenda is more personal, nobody like a hero working on a leash, expecting that they have great powers and so will know how to take great responsibility before they act, so Steve has to be doing the right things going up against some governing body.

 

[Azih]

Because of this scene with Zola: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62cjheqv-nw

Heavily implied but not outright stated.

Zola confirmed that the Starks were assassinated but Hydra has/had so many different ways of killing people that I don't think there's any very compelling reason for Cap to think Winter Soldier killed the Starks.

Basically I believe Cap when he says he knew the Starks were killed but that he didn't know Winter Soldier did it.

Edit: In any case for the Sokovian accords. Things shook out the way they had to. The world cannot condone supers with unlimited budgets doing whatever they want anymore so the accords are the official condoned way they do. Any super who doesn't want to abide by them will retire or go vigilante. How hard officials enforce the accord depends on what the vigilante is doing. Zemo just ensured it happened in the most painful way possible for the Avengers and not amicably.

 

[LionPride]

The way Cap was looking when Tonybwas watching the vid of his parents getting murdered was as if he knew and kept it from Tony and was thinking of how to stop Tony from murkin Bucky. He was never watching the video, only Tony

 

[AquaWateria]

I assume the official concept art of Zemo hadn't been posted.

 

[Danis Saur]

I'm super late, but just watched it today and that airport fight was everything I needed to see, but the movie delivered more than that. Dialogue, characters and heart heavy scenarios at the end. Spider-man and Black Panther definitely stole the show, I had no idea I wanted to see movies from them up until now.

Just my simple view on the movie, those brothers are great directors.

 

[kurahador]

Zola confirmed that the Starks were assassinated but Hydra has/had so many different ways of killing people that I don't think there's any very compelling reason for Cap to think Winter Soldier killed the Starks.

Basically I believe Cap when he says he knew the Starks were killed but that he didn't know Winter Soldier did it.

That scene shows Winter Soldier using a sniper and Howard's dead body. I bet Cap figures that out pretty quick.
The implication is pretty damning.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Zola's speech scene in TWS heavily, heavily, heavily implies it was Bucky who killed The Starks. The montage of images being shown were all about Bucky's kills.

 

[Burt]

It was never outright said in TWS, just heavily implied. A flash of a grainy Bucky in one sentence and Howard Stark's obituary/body in the next isn't exactly definitive.

I don't think Steve lied to Tony when he got asked about it the first time. He got pushed as far as he could go towards avoiding the it, easily as close as we'd ever seen him skirt lying, and when Tony had him backed up to the metaphorical cliff with no where to go, he nutted up and said what he knew to be the truth, even without actual evidence.

 

[Jest Chillin]

https://youtu.be/E486XjhYHh8

Zola: "When history did not cooperate, history was changed."
*image of Bucky with a sniper rifle*
Widow: "That's impossible. SHIELD would have stopped you."
Zola: "Accidents. Happen."
*Images of newspaper photos of Howard Starks car accident and then a file photo of Nick Fury with the word "Deceased" on it*

So we know they used Bucky to assassinate anyone who got in their way and we know Bucky was the one who shot Fury... So those two things with Starks death in between is about as heavy an implication as there can be without Zola outright stating Bucky killed them or showing a photo of him doing it

 

[alundra311]

All it needs are webpits.

This.

Also, am I the only one who wished they'd do this whenever his spider-sense is tingling?

 

[Kurdel]

This was so good, the whole Vision run has been amazing.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

What does it matter when you're incapable of reevaluating your position?

Ant-Man is there thematically as a parallel to Peter. Both are relatively inexperienced, both are swept up by their admiration for Steve and Tony respectively. Both show that their respective leaders are willing to take advantage of that naivety to accomplish their own goals.

Ant-Man is there from a narrative stand point because Steve needed more muscle, because it would be much easier for Wanda, Clint, and Scott to get into Germany than for Steve to smuggle Bucky out. If you bothered to pay attention, you'd have picked this up when Steve and Sam are discussing how to get Bucky out of Germany. Steve says "We're on our own," and Sam responds with "Maybe not. I know a guy," referring to Scott Lang.

Ant-Man is there from an entertainment point of view because he's fucking awesome and a great way to leave an impression on an audience.

Does that adequately answer your question? Why did you you see this movie twice when all you do is whine about it?

It doesn't adequately answer my question. The muscle part is pointless because the movie only gives the quinjet as an out therefore making the scene necessary. There was no options, it was designed from the start to get them all there and they needed to back it up with half-baked ideas. Scott Lang has considerable resources with Hank Pym and the best idea that can ever be conceived in a long run towards the quinjet? It makes TWS evasion aspect seem almost non-existent. Sure, there's urgency but it all plays into, "gotta make them ALL fight". You can make a movie make sense in that the dialogue reinforces the choices made but you can still question whether those choices are good or good. Hunger Games makes choices that fit well within the universe but it's not like they're not criticized for being dumb.

 

[LucidMomentum]

I assume the official concept art of Zemo hadn't been posted.

That'll work.

 

[Renekton]

That scene shows Winter Soldier using a sniper and Howard's dead body. I bet Cap figures that out pretty quick.
The implication is pretty damning.

You can watch the Zola clip again, the sequence is different.

"When History Refused to Cooperate" - Bucky shown, implying his utility for geopolitical assassinations

"SHIELD would have stopped you" - Widow interjection

"Accidents happen" - Zola replied with clipping of car accident.

The possible conclusion in Steve's mind as of TWS is while Bucky is a strong suspect, Howard could have been a victim of accident arranged by HYDRA goons.

So we know they used Bucky to assassinate anyone who got in their way and we know Bucky was the one who shot Fury...

I'm thinking if Fury was slightly less lucky, HYDRA goons would have killed him before Bucky needed to step in.

 

[Jest Chillin]

It doesn't adequately answer my question. The muscle part is pointless because the movie only gives the quinjet as an out therefore making the scene necessary. There was no options, it was designed from the start to get them all there and they needed to back it up with half-baked ideas. Scott Lang has considerable resources with Hank Pym and the best idea that can ever be conceived in a long run towards the quinjet? It makes TWS evasion aspect seem almost useless. Sure, there's urgency but it all plays into, "gotta make them ALL fight". You can make any reason sort of stick but it doesn't mean the reason is good.

You seem to have missed that the Quinjet was the contingency plan. Cap predicted that Tony would intercept but he didn't know it for sure. If Tony never shows, they just take a regular jet. Since he did show, Cap knew they would have had to use a Quinjet to get everyone there.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

I assume the official concept art of Zemo hadn't been posted.

Huh.

Make the eye holes smaller, make the coat longer and move the body armour underneath it. I feel that those would be big improvements.

Edit: Wait, that coat is the body armour. Eh.

Not like they'll use this!

 

[Replicant]

It doesn't adequately answer my question. The muscle part is pointless because the movie only gives the quinjet as an out therefore making the scene necessary. There was no options, it was designed from the start to get them all there and they needed to back it up with half-baked ideas. Scott Lang has considerable resources with Hank Pym and the best idea that can ever be conceived in a long run towards the quinjet? It makes TWS evasion aspect seem almost useless. Sure, there's urgency but it all plays into, "gotta make them ALL fight". You can make any reason sort of stick but it doesn't mean the reason is good.

Learn to read thread (and pay attention at the movie) FFS!

He was there to be the 6th person required on Steve's side to fight the Winter Soldiers that Zemo plan to activate. The original plan wasn't for #TeamCap vs #TeamIronMan brawl. It was for Cap to get to the Quinjet and get to Siberia and face off with the Winter Soldiers. Cap realises that he can't do it with just Falcon and Bucky and needed reinforcement. That's why Wanda, Hawkeye, and Ant-Man were recruited. They needed the extra muscles. That plan went sideways when they got intercepted by Tony so they changed plan.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

You seem to have missed that the Quinjet was the contingency plan. Cap predicted that Tony would intercept but he didn't know it for sure. If Tony never shows, they just take a regular jet. Since he did show, Cap knee they would have had to use a Quinjet to get everyone there.

It's the illusion of choice. If they wanted to go the TWS route they'd head to ANY private airstrip and just hi-jack a private jet. The problem is nothing is discussed or shown except, "we have to get to this airport quickly to (1) fly out on a plane or (2) fight to the quinjet." They are good choices to make but they're still stupid options because (1) the jet will be covered and (2) it's a massive airport, it'd be watched.

Learn to read thread (and pay attention at the movie) FFS!

He was there to be the 6th person required on Steve's side to fight the Winter Soldiers that Zemo plan to activate. The original plan wasn't for #TeamCap vs #TeamIronMan brawl. It was for Cap to get to the Quinjet and get to Siberia and face off with the Winter Soldiers. Cap realises that he can't do it with just Falcon and Bucky and needed reinforcement. That's why Wanda, Hawkeye, and Ant-Man were recruited. They needed the extra muscles. That plan went sideways when they got intercepted by Tony so they changed plan.

Are you saying the preceding events weren't designed by the writers and director to set up that big set piece and no other options available in the MCU were available to TeamCap?

 

[Replicant]

It's the illusion of choice. If they wanted to go the TWS route they'd head to ANY private airstrip and just hi-jack a private jet. The problem is nothing is discussed or shown except, "we have to get to this airport quickly to (1) fly out on a plane or (2) fight to the quinjet." They are good choices to make but they're still stupid options because (1) the jet will be covered and (2) it's a massive airport, it'd be watched.

Are you saying the preceding events weren't designed by the writers and director to set up that big set piece and no other options available in the MCU were available to TeamCap?

Who'd let them hire private airstrip? They are wanted criminals! And they are not exactly low-key when it comes to appearance. They also monitor every single airport and private charter. Not to mention they need to get to Siberia ASAP not next week. This much was said in the film. This is the dumbest thing I've read ITT.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Who'd let them hire private airstrip? They are wanted criminals! And they are not exactly low-key when it comes to appearance.

Hire? No. Take. I don't think Cap and Co have any qualms about stealing a private jet.

Just because a series of events makes sense doesn't make them particularly interesting or good. All it means is you were able to make the situation make sense. Quality is a factor as well.

They were easily recognizable internationally wanted suspects who were trying to get to Zemo BEFORE he activated an entire team of Winter Soldiers that were even more powerful than Bucky. They did not have time to weigh other options that all would be problematic. They needed to go NOW. So they chose the quickest route.

Their urgency is just smoke, though, as Zemo was already there (whether they knew or not). Sure, time was of the essence but not one of them is smart enough to think, "The psychiatrist had over a day's head start, we could probably come at this from a different angle."

 

[Jest Chillin]

It's the illusion of choice. If they wanted to go the TWS route they'd head to ANY private airstrip and just hi-jack a private jet. The problem is nothing is discussed or shown except, "we have to get to this airport quickly to (1) fly out on a plane or (2) fight to the quinjet." They are good choices to make but they're still stupid options because (1) the jet will be covered and (2) it's a massive airport, it'd be watched.



Are you saying the preceding events weren't designed by the writers and director to set up that big set piece and no other options available in the MCU were available to TeamCap?

They were easily recognizable internationally wanted suspects who were trying to get to Zemo BEFORE he activated an entire team of Winter Soldiers that were even more powerful than Bucky. They did not have time to weigh other options that all would be problematic. They needed to go NOW. So they chose the quickest route.

 

[Replicant]

Hire? No. Take. I don't think Cap and Co have any qualms about stealing a private jet.

Just because a series of events makes sense doesn't make them particularly interesting or good. All it means is you were able to make the situation make sense. Quality is a factor as well.

Take private jet? Why? When there is a Quinjet to take? They need to get there ASAP.

Well, your argument is not quality either and yet you're still spewing them.

Their urgency is just smoke, though, as Zemo was already there (whether they knew or not). Sure, time was of the essence but not one of them is smart enough to think, "The psychiatrist had over a day's head start, we could probably come at this from a different angle."

What angle? These are people who can blend in easily. They speak a lot of different languages and once released, there's no easy way for Cap to track them, especially given the fact that he's a criminal himself at this point in time.

 

[ShinoguTakeruKoeru]

This.

Also, am I the only one who wished they'd do this whenever his spider-sense is tingling?

I kinda wanted it too, but I feel like this is the sorta thing you would mainly get in a Spidey solo film.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Hire? No. Take. I don't think Cap and Co have any qualms about stealing a private jet.

Just because a series of events makes sense doesn't make them particularly interesting or good. All it means is you were able to make the situation make sense. Quality is a factor as well.



Their urgency is just smoke, though, as Zemo was already there (whether they knew or not). Sure, time was of the essence but not one of them is smart enough to think, "The psychiatrist had over a day's head start, we could probably come at this from a different angle."

You're right. They clearly should have Googled "fully fueled private jets at airfields that are NOT the big close one" and tried to go there. Then they should've taken their time and let Zemo take control of the team of Winter Soldiers with full legit Super Serum strength and go to another completely unknown location to wreak tons of death and destruction upon innocent people.

Clearly the better thought process. /sarcasm

 

[Dai101]

https://youtu.be/E486XjhYHh8

Zola: "When history did not cooperate, history was changed."
*image of Bucky with a sniper rifle*
Widow: "That's impossible. SHIELD would have stopped you."
Zola: "Accidents. Happen."
*Images of newspaper photos of Howard Starks car accident and then a file photo of Nick Fury with the word "Deceased" on it*

So we know they used Bucky to assassinate anyone who got in their way and we know Bucky was the one who shot Fury... So those two things with Starks death in between is about as heavy an implication as there can be without Zola outright stating Bucky killed them or showing a photo of him doing it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQgDLaj6jFI

Nat: "That thing you asked for. I called in a few favors from Kiev."

"Be careful, Steve, Might not want to pull on that thread."

 

[guek]

It doesn't adequately answer my question. The muscle part is pointless because the movie only gives the quinjet as an out therefore making the scene necessary. There was no options, it was designed from the start to get them all there and they needed to back it up with half-baked ideas. Scott Lang has considerable resources with Hank Pym and the best idea that can ever be conceived in a long run towards the quinjet? It makes TWS evasion aspect seem almost non-existent. Sure, there's urgency but it all plays into, "gotta make them ALL fight". You can make a movie make sense in that the dialogue reinforces the choices made but you can still question whether those choices are good or good. Hunger Games makes choices that fit well within the universe but it's not like they're not criticized for being dumb.

-->

It's subpar being a dingus. All he does in this thread is try his hardest to nitpick the movie and then either change his argument or become petulant once refuted.

I honestly don't know whether it's worse if you were a troll or if your complaints are genuine. Either would be really sad.

 

[Renekton]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQgDLaj6jFI

Nat: "That thing you asked for. I called in a few favors from Kiev."

"Be careful, Steve, Might not want to pull on that thread."

I believe the Russos, new MCU directors as of TWS, left it open-ended and vague enough to not drag down Whedon's Avengers 2 with a plot hole.

 

[Gleethor]

I assume the official concept art of Zemo hadn't been posted.

This hurts.

 

[Wheeljack539]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQgDLaj6jFI

Nat: "That thing you asked for. I called in a few favors from Kiev."

"Be careful, Steve, Might not want to pull on that thread."

The problem though is we honestly don't know what was in there. What information was relevant that it would be in there? Did it go into mission detail? Or did it go into what they did to Bucky and what was needed to keep him inline? Gruesome stuff that would not be a fun read either way.

 

[fallengorn]

This hurts.

Dude is still alive. We can still get him.

 

[HvySky]

I assume the official concept art of Zemo hadn't been posted.

This could still be a possibility, no? Zemo is still alive, after all.

 

[Gleethor]

Dude is still alive. We can still get him.

Eh. I think the original design is sort of at odds with this character that they've written, which once again leads me to ask: why call him Zemo at all?