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[razzmahtazz]

That's very true, lots of their decision history is very crazy. However the USA is just one country among 127, so unless suddenly 127 countries are all like the USA and are crazy, you can't dismiss their wishes either

Eh, US kinda already runs the UN in this world. US Secretary of State runs the prison and the special forces. The CIA running the investigation in Germany.

 

[DeathyBoy]

So, Team Cap then, I assume?

I love how Guek's post boils down to "we need Accords because of Tony fucking up" and yet Tony doesn't turn himself in to make a statement because...

 

[Bold One]

He put all the blame for what had happened on Tony when they both are at fault. And he totally lied to Tony about his parents, too. And used the shield Howard made to defend his killer .

This is probably the most egregious issue I had during the whole final fight

Using that shield in the context of the conflict was shameful, tasteless and dishonourable especially to the man who made it

 

[Tosyn_88]

Eh, US kinda already runs the UN in this world. US Secretary of State runs the prison and the special forces. The CIA running the investigation in Germany.

Huh? You sure you aren't projecting?

 

[Azih]

This is probably the most egregious issue I had during the whole final fight

Using that shield in the context of the conflict was shameful, tasteless and dishonourable especially to the man who made it

Really? Stark fell into a vengeful justifiable rage and was out for blood. Bucky was desperately fighting for his life. Rogers should have thrown away a shield while trying to defend his friend from manslaughter?

 

[G-Fex]

I thought Bucky would be the worst part of this movie but to my surprise...he's not

 

[kurahador]

This is probably the most egregious issue I had during the whole final fight

Using that shield in the context of the conflict was shameful, tasteless and dishonourable especially to the man who made it

How does saving two people -- one of them being the son of the one who made the shield no less, is dishonorable?

 

[jph139]

Anyone else watch the Collider Q&A?

They touched on a line that really confused me. When Bucky escapes and is fighting Black Widow she says something like, "do you not even recognize me?" or "do you not even remember me?" something like that. Anyway, I didn't really get why she'd say that to him since I felt like she only really knew him in Winter Soldier.

The Russos reminded me that they had met before and he had shot through her to assassinate someone. However, they also hinted that Black Widow might have some secret connections to Bucky that we don't know about.

Wonder if she worked with him back when she was still a Russian spy.

Oh man, cool. That line immediately made me think of Red Room, Soviet assassination backstory stuff, but I figured since Bucky was mostly HYDRA in the MCU they were just referencing that she was involved in the whole Winter Soldier business last movie.

A lot of her pre-SHIELD days are pretty vague. There's a lot a solo movie could play with there.

 

[Rentahamster]

If Vibranium can absorb kinetic energy and any vibrations, wouldn't making it bounce off walls be completely impossible?

The kinetic energy that Cap puts into it when he throws, would it not just hit the wall and fall down?

When directly struck from the front, the shield absorbs or redirects all or most incoming energy. When in rotation and hit on the sides perpendicular to the front, the shield behavior changes and can perfectly conserve internal kinetic energy in order to have great bouncing potential.

(Fuck I dunno how it works, I just made that up in my head :3 )

 

[richiek]

For all you Arrested Development fans out there:

 

[Moosichu]

When directly struck from the front, the shield absorbs or redirects all or most incoming energy. When in rotation and hit on the sides perpendicular to the front, the shield behavior changes and can perfectly conserve internal kinetic energy in order to have great bouncing potential.

(Fuck I dunno how it works, I just made that up in my head :3 )

No. Spider-Man explained it best. It has impossible physics.

 

[neorej]

For all you Arrested Development fans out there:

Yeah, I noticed in the cinema. Fuckign amazing

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

For all you Arrested Development fans out there:

I missed that somehow.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I still can't get over Hawkeye being dickish in this film. Sam engaged Tony more properly.

 

[Renekton]

I think Hawkeye was reasonable, considering they as world saviours were being put in the nasty Raft prison.

 

[y2dvd]

Guek, you probably should stop entertaining Subpar man lol.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Huh? You sure you aren't projecting?

He's talking about the MCU. Ross running the blacksite prison and Sharon Carter's boss running the investigation in Berlin, (she worked for the CIA at the end of TWS).

 

[richiek]

I think Hawkeye was reasonable, considering they as world saviours were being put in the nasty Raft prison.

MCU Hawkeye is basically Daredevil:

 

[KodaRuss]

I thought Bucky would be the worst part of this movie but to my surprise...he's not

The trailers made him seem pretty bad but he really was great in the movie. His fight scenes were awesome and I really like Bucky as a character.

This is probably the most egregious issue I had during the whole final fight

Using that shield in the context of the conflict was shameful, tasteless and dishonourable especially to the man who made it

Do you think Howard would approve of Tony killing Bucky and likely Cap for revenge?

 

[Subpar Spatula]

What a crock of shit. This wasn't the complaint you started with, you began by trying to argue the plot points didn't even make sense to begin with. And now that people have explained what was obvious to everyone else but you, you're moving goal posts. Again. Just like I said you would.

But here's the real shit in your cereal. The levity of the airport fight scene you're bitching about absolutely, without question is an intentional story telling device. Yes, to most of those involved, it almost felt like a sparring match. Most of them felt like they were pulling some punches. The audience gets caught up in the fun of the moment too. But then what happens? How does this fight end? Rhodey gets shot unintentionally (which is a REALLY IMPORTANT DETAIL BTW) and falls like a rock for what feels like at least half a minute. And instead of being caught at the end like the film had lead you to believe woould happen, he lands with a deafening thud. I can't tell you the last time I've heard the theater wince that audibly. For all the insane action in Fury Road, there isn't a single blow in that entire film that hits with that much impact.

That's because the Russos intentionally cut the rug out from under the audience. Instead of everyone continuing to smile and laugh at how much fun they had, everyone immediately comes down to earth. Rhodey is fucking crippled by collateral damage. And instead of just dying, which would be emotionally lazy, Rhodey is now a living, limping, constant reminder to Tony of the consequences of the superhero community running around unchecked. The tool he created is responsible no less, which is a running theme Tony has been struggling with since the first Iron Man, i.e. the start of the MCU.

So despite you being unable to see these really obvious narrative threads, the lighter tone of the airport fight is entirely deliberate from a story telling point of view. Not only that but it was goddamn necessary to drive the point home that the Avengers operating in any capacity carries with it with it enormous risks, regardless of how much fun the audience has watching them.

Now that I've explained to you why it works from a story telling perspective, and you yourself have admitted in your own post that the plot mechanics work, feel free to move the goal post yet again.

Yeah, I didn't properly explain myself. You caught me!

You just attributed logic that the movie probably didn't intend to just like how BvS will imply King Arthur inspirations. The airport scene wasn't there to show the light hearted-ness of it all and how devastating that could be due to there being better options to show this. The chase scene with Bucky, Cap, and BP illustrate your point better than the airport scene. If you want to attribute those themes and purposes to that fight then what was the preceding chase for?

By way way, MM:FR has more weight to it than Rhodey falling down to earth, even just saying it's better with an anecdote of how the theatre winced is laughable.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I think Hawkeye was reasonable, considering they as world saviours were being put in the nasty Raft prison.

And Tony was about to point that but then he mouthed.

 

[Solo]

I thought Bucky would be the worst part of this movie but to my surprise...he's not

He was the best thing about it aside from the Cap/Tony beef.

 

[neorej]

I think Hawkeye was reasonable, considering they as world saviours were being put in the nasty Raft prison.

"The people demand accountability, so we built this big ass prison in the middle of the ocean that noone knows about."


Uhhuh.

 

[itwasTuesday]

I didn't like the iron man helmet going completely away and back.

 

[Cth]

For all you Arrested Development fans out there:

But that's not the vehicle, right?

Stair cars are common at airports.

The Bluth's vehicle has a different sticker on the side.

 

[this_guy]

So let me get this straight, it's ok to let Bucky walk because because he brainwashed but despite Tony being mind-raped by wanda into creating Ultron he should shoulder all the responsibility for that mess? Ultron was right about Cap. He needs something to punch constantly he doesn't want the war to end. It's you who has a warped view of cap. Your idolatry blinds you.

He didn't force anyone to sign anything, Tony was trying to be as pragmatic as possible and you can tell he was conflicted (props to rdj for acting circles around everybody) in this.

The lack of accountability is clear, the world owes the avengers but who watches the watchmen? wanda kills dozens of people in Lagos and I'm sorry but hankering down in a loft somewhere for a while with a super advanced and hilarious robot buddy is not the worst thing in the world. Most get worse for way less.

Tony was no longer under the influence when he created Ultron. This is even worse because he was of sound mind when he created a world destroyer. Ultron is so much worse than anything Bucky ever did. Ultron wasn't just trying to destroy Sokovia - he was going to drop Sokovia into the ground and create an extinction level event.

As far as letting Bucky walk - Cap was trying to intervene so they don't kill his buddy. Sharon Carter told him point blank they had kill orders.

 

[El Topo]

"The people demand accountability, so we built this big ass prison in the middle of the ocean that noone knows about."

They said in the movie that it is a secret prison that no one knows about?

 

[BronsonLee]

They said in the movie that it is a secret prison that no one knows about?

I mean it's fucking underwater and houses Enhanced

I really doubt they want people to be strollin' in

 

[El Topo]

I mean it's fucking underwater and houses Enhanced

I really doubt they want people to be strollin' in

That doesn't mean that it is secret. It's a prison under the sea, so it's not exactly accessible anyway.

 

[neorej]

They said in the movie that it is a secret prison that no one knows about?

Tony is pretty high up in the whole Accords hierarchy and he didn't know.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Why would he yell that?

He probably doesn't even get the reference.

It's already been 4 years since he thawed out. Of course he's already seen Rambo.

 

[El Topo]

Tony is pretty high up in the whole Accords hierarchy and he didn't know.

He didn't know about the prison, or just the location and/or underwater part? I don't recall it, to be honest, so I'll have to pay attention when I watch it again at some point. That said, if the Ant-Man ordeal is any indication, he's not exactly paying attention to every event and detail. Is the Raft actually even part of the accords? You would think that it would be mentioned in this enormous 300-page document. Seems more like Tony didn't pay much attention.

Personally I'm impressed that this supposedly beauraucratic monster is able to swiftly come up with and agree on accords, build (or agree on) a superprison and immediately takes action after the bombing to get Bucky and investigate the events, instead of debating it for years.

 

[Fandangox]

He didn't know about the prison, or just the location and/or underwater part? I don't recall it, to be honest. That said, if the Ant-Man ordeal is any indication, he's not exactly paying attention to every event and detail. Is the Raft actually even part of the accords?

He definitely didn't know, he thought they would be held elsewhere. He seems pretty shocked when he arrives and sees them on the surveillance cameras.

 

[enigmatic_alex44]

Cap/Bucky and Black Panther were the highlights of Civil War. Was legit surprised at how awesome Giant Man was too after suffering through the film Ant-Man on Netflix. Paul Rudd is much better in a supporting role than as a lead.

Not exactly sure HOW they are keeping Scarlet Witch locked up??? She says she can control stuff with her mind, but somehow shackling her arms takes her powers away? Makes no sense.

 

[BronsonLee]

He knew who Lang was, he was just giving him shit

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Speaking of which, what a grand waste of resource that prison was if Steve could infiltrate and break people out of it that quickly.

 

[Fhtagn]

In that case, he absolutely should yell it.

Cap: C'MON! WE'VE GOT TO GET TO THE CHOPPER!
Ant-Man: YEAH! WE HAVE TO-...wait...*stops running*....heh
Falcon: did he just?...ha...
Hawkeye: yeah....GET TO DA CHOPPAH!...hahaha!
Cap: What? What's so funny?

Haha, I don't think this would work in the film but it'd be a great deleted scene.

 

[Fandangox]

Speaking of which, what a grand waste of resource that prison was if Steve could infiltrate and break people out of it that quickly.

He probably got some help.

Wakandian help.

 

[neorej]

He didn't know about the prison, or just the location and/or underwater part? I don't recall it, to be honest, so I'll have to pay attention when I watch it again at some point. That said, if the Ant-Man ordeal is any indication, he's not exactly paying attention to every event and detail. Is the Raft actually even part of the accords? You would think that it would be mentioned in this enormous 300-page document. Seems more like Tony didn't pay much attention.

Personally I'm impressed that this supposedly beauraucratic monster is able to swiftly come up with and agree on accords, build (or agree on) a superprison and immediately takes action after the bombing to get Bucky and investigate the events, instead of debating it for years.

Well, Tony himself said "We need to be put in check, whatever form that takes, I'm game."

So he probably just signed the Accords without reading a single word in them. Which is just as bad as not signing them without reading them.

Speaking of which, what a grand waste of resource that prison was if Steve could infiltrate and break people out of it that quickly.

My best guess is that part of the prison's defence is it's location, which Steve would've learned from a certain member who switched sides. Other than that, it's just a bunch of regular guys facing Steve Rogers. Yeah. That won't end well.

 

[Caboose]

Bucky completely murking Tony's dad with those two punches from his metal arm while the camera stayed on it... damn that was unexpectedly brutal lol.

 

[ratcliffja]

It's already been 4 years since he thawed out. Of course he's already seen Rambo.

Rambo? Really?
Edit: and I agree that Ant Man was infinitely better in this than his own movie. I wish the Russos could do the next Ant Man movie too so it would be watchable.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

Personally I'm impressed that this supposedly beauraucratic monster is able to swiftly come up with and agree on accords, build (or agree on) a superprison and immediately takes action after the bombing to get Bucky and investigate the events, instead of debating it for years.

They probably were working on it for years. Maybe some remnants from the world security council and HYDRA. Then Sokovia happens, and Ross and co. are able to come in and say, "We have a solution."

 

[neorej]

They probably were working on it for years. Maybe some remnants from the world security council and HYDRA. Then Sokovia happens, and Ross and co. are able to come in and say, "We have a solution."

Yeah, the World Counsil was already at least considering the possibility of enhanced individuals, considering the Avengers Initiative was phase one of their plans, which was well in place back in 2008. Makes sense to create a facility to house those less cooperative.

 

[Fhtagn]

She just happened to get cast in both by accident is what I think I read. The two sides (television, movies) are headed by different people.

Not only that, but the TV guy, Perlmutter, was such a prick, Feige threatened to quit, which is why the TV and Movie teams are now split; I keep reading rumors that the reason the TV/Netflix heroes are unlikely to show up in the movies is entirely on Perlmutter.

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/conte...er-came-head-during-captain-america-civil-war

 

[phazedplasma]

Not only that, but the TV guy, Perlmutter, was such a prick, Feige threatened to quit, which is why the TV and Movie teams are now split; I keep reading rumors that the reason the TV/Netflix heroes are unlikely to show up in the movies is entirely on Perlmutter.

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/conte...er-came-head-during-captain-america-civil-war

So glad perlmutter is done. Article is full of some other interesting speculation as well.

 

[StarCreator]

Not only that, but the TV guy, Perlmutter, was such a prick, Feige threatened to quit, which is why the TV and Movie teams are now split; I keep reading rumors that the reason the TV/Netflix heroes are unlikely to show up in the movies is entirely on Perlmutter.

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/conte...er-came-head-during-captain-america-civil-war

I'd attribute TV to Loeb, not Perlmutter (who is basically the Len Grossman of the situation).

 

[Renekton]

Not exactly sure HOW they are keeping Scarlet Witch locked up??? She says she can control stuff with her mind, but somehow shackling her arms takes her powers away? Makes no sense.

Probably has an additional instant-incapacitating mechanism should it detect a certain increase in energy.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

Cap/Bucky and Black Panther were the highlights of Civil War. Was legit surprised at how awesome Giant Man was too after suffering through the film Ant-Man on Netflix. Paul Rudd is much better in a supporting role than as a lead.

Not exactly sure HOW they are keeping Scarlet Witch locked up??? She says she can control stuff with her mind, but somehow shackling her arms takes her powers away? Makes no sense.

First of all, Ant-Man was a pretty great movie (not my favorite, but it's really good) lol. Really looking forward to the sequel.

Second, Wanda's powers in the movie require her to use her hands so putting her ina straight jacket effectively takes that away.

 

[guek]

Probably has an additional instant-incapacitating mechanism should it detect a certain increase in energy.

We've also never seen her use her telekinesis without her hands and she was in a straight jacket. Was she wearing a collar?

 

[MegaManTrigger]

So let me get this straight, it's ok to let Bucky walk because because he brainwashed but despite Tony being mind-raped by wanda into creating Ultron he should shoulder all the responsibility for that mess? Ultron was right about Cap. He needs something to punch constantly he doesn't want the war to end. It's you who has a warped view of cap. Your idolatry blinds you.

He didn't force anyone to sign anything, Tony was trying to be as pragmatic as possible and you can tell he was conflicted (props to rdj for acting circles around everybody) in this.

The lack of accountability is clear, the world owes the avengers but who watches the watchmen? wanda kills dozens of people in Lagos and I'm sorry but hankering down in a loft somewhere for a while with a super advanced and hilarious robot buddy is not the worst thing in the world. Most get worse for way less.

Tony wasn't "mind-raped", he was shown a vision of the Future where the Avengers were dead, which forced him into desperation to try and find a solution before more people got hurt. But that in of itself was an issue, he completely let his emotions dominate his rationality and made him rely on a piece of technology that he himself was not even close to familiar with. While I understand the reasoning, it was incredibly reckless to rely on the Scepter when he knows that piece of tech can cause horrible things to happen. The two situations aren't exactly the same considering that Bucky was forced to be brainwashed so that HYDRA could use him as a weapon.

You could see in Tony's mannerisms that he was trying to push Cap to sign the Sokovia Accords without trying to see his POV. This is something I have a problem with because it comes off as Tony wanting people to be on his side without realizing that just because he was reckless with the whole Ultron shenanigans, doesn't mean that every hero is going to be reckless. And this is coming from the fact that I completely understand the whole government oversight point, but I also understand that government oversight has too many possible issues tied to human nature that the deficits outweigh the benefits. I don't think this is as simple as "who watches the watchmen?"

It may not be the worse thing in the world for you, but it's a start of a possible slippery slope. If Tony is already relying on house arrest and trampling Wanda's rights, then how much further will he go to get what he needs? Not to mention, now that superhero registration is a thing, how would that affect mutants (obviously that will never happen but assume X-Men existed in the MCU)/Inhumans? Will they also be forced into a form of registration because of their biological make-up?