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Captain America: Civil War SPOILER Thread - #TeamThanos

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The reveal of Tony's parents and Bucky was the single most poignant and emotive act in any comic book movie. The film was, to me, quite disappointing before that. But that final Act just took the film to new territory. It's an example of a character driven narrative, as opposed to one defined by costume or powers. A friendship extinguished and a betrayal all born out of a desire to do good.
 
peanutbutterlatte said:
"Accidents happen"

Juxtaposed with the Stark article

Juxtaposed with a picture of the Winter Soldier

C'mon guys

Juxtapose your brains with some common sense
Click to expand...

Juxtaposed with a picture of Nick Fury, who we most certainly know by that point in the film didn't die in an accident, and we know who the perpetrator of his 'accident' is.

It's really obvious.
 
GAMEPROFF said:
Assassinations are often named as "Incidents" by those who cause it.

He knew it, Steve is no stupid idiot. It was Bucky and the movie clearly implied it and there is no way to twist it around. It was Bucky.
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I watched the Zola clip again and it showed "Accident" in news clip and SHIELD files as "classified", there was no clear implication. When Zola said "Accidents happen", it would be any method. They are open to any method, such as Nick Fury's car being attacked by fake cops.

Alienous said:
It was pretty obvious.

"When history did not co-operate, history was changed" - shows The Winter Solider (of which we only know one to exist) - conveys that he was Hydra's method of 'changing history'.

"Accidents will happen" - shows Howard Stark, conveying that his death wasn't an accident, and also shows Nick Fury, someone we know The Winter Soldier 'killed' (at that point in the film).

It's pretty clear cut.
Click to expand...
In the Zola clip, the writers very intentionally separated the shots of Winter Soldier and then Howard's with Widow's interjection, to leave the causality unclear as of Cap 2.
 
I wanted to point out two great subtle elements of the movie:
  • The more Tony loses his balance through the movie, the more injured and wracked he looks.
  • The movie explains Zemo's motivation with three different characters: Tony; the black woman, who blames the Avengers for the dead of her son; and T'Challa. So in the end Zemo doesn't need to say much, to explain his reasons to the audience.
 
Renekton said:
I watched the Zola clip again and it showed "Accident" in news clip and SHIELD files as "classified", there was no clear implication. When Zola said "Accidents happen", it would be any method. They are open to any method, such as Nick Fury's car being attacked by fake cops.


In the Zola clip, the writers very intentionally separated the shots of Winter Soldier and then Howard with Widow's interjection, to leave the causality unclear as of Cap 2.
Click to expand...

OK, then its not obivious to you but the the other millions of people who watched it.
 
Steve's initial "I didn't know" was an impulsive lie, because he realised how Tony would react and what was about to happen.

He ain't lifting that hammer for shit now
 
Watch the clip again

Bucky was used by Hydra for assassinations. Other examples of Hydra's influence around the world are shown. And then Stark's death. The implication is that Hydra was responsible for several terrible things, and used war and people like Bucky.

There was never any direct suggestion that Bucky killed Tony's father.

Personally, the reveal in Civil War was a shock to me.
 
Meus Renaissance said:
Watch the clip again

Bucky was used by Hydra for assassinations. Other examples of Hydra's influence around the world are shown. And then Stark's death. The implication is that Hydra was responsible for several terrible things, and used war and people like Bucky.

There was never any direct suggestion that Bucky killed Tony's father.

Personally, the reveal in Civil War was a shock to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah, just that they show Bucky every two seconds in this Clip while ranting about changing history and accidents.
 
I still lol at them using Dominic Cooper's photo for that

And them constantly going timey wimey with Slattery, even having aged up Peggy there in Ant-Man
 
peanutbutterlatte said:
Then how come we all miraculously guessed this two years ago

Your level of inference is shocking
Click to expand...

The fact that Bucky died and Rogers would continue to look for him.
The fact that a Civil War film was likely.
The fact that Bucky was used to assassinate people.

It's a guess that requires foresight. But there is nothing to suggest in Cap 2 that Rogers "knew." I doubt the writers themselves knew back then what was going to happen between Tony and Bucky.
 
Meus Renaissance said:
Watch the clip again

Bucky was used by Hydra for assassinations. Other examples of Hydra's influence around the world are shown. And then Stark's death. The implication is that Hydra was responsible for several terrible things, and used war and people like Bucky.

There was never any direct suggestion that Bucky killed Tony's father.

Personally, the reveal in Civil War was a shock to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah, same. As a pretty casual watcher, I had no idea when Tony's dad died and whether Winter Soldier was even active then. Came as a total surprise.
 
Meus Renaissance said:
There was never any direct suggestion that Bucky killed Tony's father.
Click to expand...
Then you weren't paying attention..
Meus Renaissance said:
The fact that Bucky died and Rogers would continue to look for him.
The fact that a Civil War film was likely.
The fact that Bucky was used to assassinate people.

It's a guess that requires foresight. But there is nothing to suggest in Cap 2 that Rogers "knew."
Click to expand...
What?? Y'all are a trip.
 
Did anyone else notice Holland's accent slip a few times? It wasn't very much but it was a little distracting, though I'm sure he will improve for Homecoming.
 
peanutbutterlatte said:
"Accidents happen"

Juxtaposed with the Stark article

Juxtaposed with a picture of the Winter Soldier

Of which Bucky was the only one

The whole point of the super soldier plot is that it failed


C'mon guys

Juxtapose your brains with some common sense
Click to expand...
1. Bucky's pic was juxtaposed with "When history did not cooperate, history was changed", implying his role was inciting historical turning points (e.g. killing a prime minister)

2. Widow interjected about "SHIELD would stop HYDRA" -- New context with separation!

3. Now at Howard Stark, it is changed "Accidents" with all information being classified. Could be anything related to vehicular death.

The only way to immediately conclude 100% Bucky with this Zola clip alone as of Cap 2 back in 2014 is guessing, though very educated! :)
 
Meus Renaissance said:
Watch the clip again

Bucky was used by Hydra for assassinations. Other examples of Hydra's influence around the world are shown. And then Stark's death. The implication is that Hydra was responsible for several terrible things, and used war and people like Bucky.

There was never any direct suggestion that Bucky killed Tony's father.

Personally, the reveal in Civil War was a shock to me.
Click to expand...

Look at it.

They frame The Winter Soldier as HYDRA's way of 'changing history'. "But SHIELD would have stopped them" - some tried, and they had accidents. Howard Stark and Nick Fury.

But wait, Nick Fury didn't have an accident. He was shot. By the Winter Soldier.

So... Howard Stark didn't have an accident. He was killed. By the Winter Soldier.

It was as clear as they could make it without stating it directly, and many picked up on it.
 
Meus Renaissance said:
This wasn't some Shakespearean plot, bro.
Click to expand...
Dude..it was clear as day. You that pays sooo much attention to detail, I'm flabbergasted that somehow you missed a major reveal during the Zola scene. We talked about that shit almost the whole drive home. We weren't thinking "Oh, they'll probably make a Civil War" or any such leaps..we were genuinely surprised.

The idea that a potential future movie is what made some implication clear is on some next level leading to conclusions..seriously.
 
Yeah, that hanging plot thread made me think it was going to come up in Avengers

Then when they announced Civil War, I figured that was what it was really going to be about because what the fuck, Cap
 
Henkka said:
Yeah, same. As a pretty casual watcher, I had no idea when Tony's dad died and whether Winter Soldier was even active then. Came as a total surprise.
Click to expand...
Black Widow had the whole exposition about this very-few-people-believe-he's-real Winter Soldier who has been used to kill a lot of important, influential people in the past earlier in the movie. Then the Zola revelation shows Winter Soldier, Stark's parents' death and Nick Fury in quick succession. I don't really see how someone WOULDN'T make the connection that it would at least be a possibility that Winter Soldier was involved in the deaths of Tony's parents.
 
Wouldn't have minded at least one scene in Ultron to build up Cap's guilt at knowing, but I don't see how they could have inserted it organically and Ultron was already stuffed.
 
Famassu said:
I don't see how you people can read that part so wrong. Steve FIRST tries to claim that he knew about the assassination but not that it was Bucky ("Did you know?" -> "I didn't know it was him"), yes, but then Tony pushes the issue and Steve clearly admits that he had figured out that it was Bucky who assassinated Tony's parents.
Click to expand...

No your completely reading this wrong man. Hes only admitting to knowing about how Stark's parents were killed. Not that it was bucky.

Edit: Actually after reading some other posts maybe he had inferred from Zola's footage that it was Bucky. I stand corrected.
 
Broken Joystick said:
Best bit of the entire film.

tumblr_o6fs8p22qm1tbg2hpo2_400.gif
Click to expand...

As soon as I saw that, I whispered to my friend, "That's gonna be a GIF".
 
BronsonLee said:
Yeah, that hanging plot thread made me think it was going to come up in Avengers

Then when they announced Civil War, I figured that was what it was really going to be about because what the fuck, Cap
Click to expand...

If you look back to TWS threads there are tons of posts asking: "I wonder how they will handle Bucky killing Tony's parents in the future?"

I think the implication was obvious and people got it day 1.
 
RangerX said:
No your completely reading this wrong man. Hes only admitting to knowing about how Stark's parents were killed. Not that it was bucky.
Click to expand...

... he then admits that he DID know it was Bucky. How on earth could you not read that as an impulsive lie as Cap's world came crashing down? Why would Tony continue to fight him so furiously?
 
inky said:
If you look back to TWS threads there are tons of posts asking: "I wonder how they will handle Bucky killing Tony's parents in the future?"

I think the implication was obvious and people got it day 1.
Click to expand...
We can agree it was an easy guess for the audience. No disagreements :)

But this is about what's in Steve Roger's head. Whether Steve knew Bucky was the killer based on Zola's speech alone.
 
peanutbutterlatte said:
... he then admits that he DID know it was Bucky. How on earth could you not read that as an impulsive lie as Cap's world came crashing down? Why would Tony continue to fight him so furiously?
Click to expand...

I edited my earlier post because I didn't thin k of the Zola footage but I read that scene as Cap only admitting to Knowing that his parents were killed by Hydra. " I didn't know it was him" implies he Knew about the incident but just not who the assassin was.
 
Famassu said:
Black Widow had the whole exposition about this very-few-people-believe-he's-real Winter Soldier who has been used to kill a lot of important, influential people in the past earlier in the movie. Then the Zola revelation shows Winter Soldier, Stark's parents' death and Nick Fury in quick succession. I don't really see how someone WOULDN'T make the connection that it would at least be a possibility that Winter Soldier was involved in the deaths of Tony's parents.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I can see that now. Just never occurred to me, lol.
 
Renekton said:
We can agree it was an easy guess for the audience. No disagreements :)

But this is about what's in Steve Roger's head. Whether Steve knew Bucky was the killer based on Zola's speech alone.
Click to expand...

The Winter Soldier killed high-profile targets for HYDRA
Turns out Howard Stark was a high-profile target to HYDRA.

It wouldn't take super-serum to figure that out from Zola's speech.
 
Renekton said:
We can agree it was an easy guess for the audience. No disagreements :)

But this is about what's in Steve Roger's head. Whether Steve knew Bucky was the killer based on Zola's speech alone.
Click to expand...

Well, it never crossed my mind that people would believe Steve didn't put it together or it was unclear to them, because it was clear to me. He seemed to have more or less the same context for it.

But fair enough if people still think he didn't and came as a surprise to them.
 
RangerX said:
I edited my earlier post because I didn't thin k of the Zola footage but I read that scene as Cap only admitting to Knowing that his parents were killed by Hydra. " I didn't know it was him" implies he Knew about the incident but just not who the assassin was.
Click to expand...

I've seen it twice and the way I remember it is this;

"Did you know?"
"... I didn't know it was him"
"Cut the bullshit Rogers, did you know?"
"... yes"

Again, inference.
 
peanutbutterlatte said:
... he then admits that he DID know it was Bucky. How on earth could you not read that as an impulsive lie as Cap's world came crashing down? Why would Tony continue to fight him so furiously?
Click to expand...
RangerX said:
I edited my earlier post because I didn't thin k of the Zola footage but I read that scene as Cap only admitting to Knowing that his parents were killed by Hydra. " I didn't know it was him" implies he Knew about the incident but just not who the assassin was.
Click to expand...
I'm struggling with this as well haha. What did Steve actually admit to when Tony pressed him a second time?

1. That he knew Bucky was the killer 100%?

2. That he only knew it was Hydra?

3. That he knew it was Hydra but he strongly suspected Bucky and just didn't want to ask?

arghhh
 
Renekton said:
I'm struggling with this as well haha. What did Steve actually admit to when Tony pressed him a second time?

1. That he knew Bucky was the killer 100%?

2. That he only knew it was Hydra?

3. That he knew it was Hydra but he strongly suspected Bucky and just didn't want to ask?

arghhh
Click to expand...

Again, I feel like he would have stuck by his "I didn't know it was him Tony, I swear". I don't see how anybody could read it different! The battle where they nearly beat each other to death wasn't just because he was protecting a murderer, it was because he'd kept a huge secret from Stark for two years.
 
RangerX said:
No your completely reading this wrong man. Hes only admitting to knowing about how Stark's parents were killed. Not that it was bucky.

Edit: Actually after reading some other posts maybe he had inferred from Zola's footage that it was Bucky. I stand corrected.
Click to expand...
Really.

"Did you know it was him?" <- That is Tony asking Steve if he knew that Bucky killed his parents (the "him" that Tony is talking about is clearly Bucky, the "it" is clearly referencing Bucky assassinating his parents)

"I didn't know it was him" <- This is Steve lying. He tries to claim that he didn't know it was "him" that did the killing (this "him", again, clearly being Bucky). With the way he's speaking, he's not denying about knowing about the assassination with this line, just CLEARLY lying that he didn't know it was Bucky.

"Don't bullshit me Rogers. Did you know?" <- This is Tony not believing Steve's half-hearted lie and asking him again if he knew Bucky was behind his parents' deaths

"Yes" <- this is Steve answering the question "Did you know that Bucky aka Winter Soldier killed Tony Stark's parents". He answers it with a simple yes. To put it into more words, he's saying "Yes, I knew (or had a strong hunch) Bucky killed your parents"


There are zero other ways to interpret that scene.
 
peanutbutterlatte said:
Again, I feel like he would have stuck by his "I didn't know it was him Tony, I swear". I don't see how anybody could read it different! The battle where they nearly beat each other to death wasn't just because he was protecting a murderer, it was because he'd kept a huge secret from Stark for two years.
Click to expand...

He probably had plausible deniability (he didn't see Bucky kill them beforehand) but just decided to cut the bullshit.

It only made sense that Bucky had done it, even if he didn't know for certain that would have been the possibility above all others.
 
BronsonLee said:
Man they really could've fucked this up SO HARD

Captain America is a goddamn liar
Iron Man LOSING a fight in pretty destructive fashion
Click to expand...
Not to mention Steve's "nah, I'm good, we don't need oversight" comes off as disingenuously selfish when his first reason to go against world governments is to save his best friend from 70 years ago, never letting any judiciary system or due process get in his way.

It makes sense for the character and I find this still makes Steve a loveable character, but it's a far cry from that dumb comic book where they the shit out of each other for vague ideas, and Tony being Orwellian as shit.
 
Famassu said:
Really.

"Did you know it was him?" <- That is Tony asking Steve if he knew that Bucky killed his parents (the "him" that Tony is talking about is clearly Bucky, the "it" is clearly referencing Bucky assassinating his parents)

"I didn't know it was him" <- This is Steve lying. He tries to claim that he didn't know it was "him" that did the killing (this "him", again, clearly being Bucky). With the way he's speaking, he's not denying about knowing about the assassination with this line, just CLEARLY lying that he didn't know it was Bucky.

"Don't bullshit me Rogers. Did you know?" <- This is Tony not believing Steve's half-hearted lie and asking him again if he knew Bucky was behind his parents' deaths

"Yes" <- this is Steve answering the question "Did you know that Bucky aka Winter Soldier killed Tony Stark's parents". He answers it with a simple yes. To put it into more words, he's saying "Yes, I knew (or had a strong hunch) Bucky killed your parents"


There are zero other ways to interpret that scene.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I'm surprised how it could be interpreted any differently. Thank you for this - I've been tempted to do the very same.
 
Famassu said:
Really.

"Did you know it was him?" <- That is Tony asking Steve if he knew that Bucky killed his parents (the "him" that Tony is talking about is clearly Bucky, the "it" is clearly referencing Bucky assassinating his parents)

"I didn't know it was him" <- This is Steve lying. He tries to claim that he didn't know it was "him" that did the killing (this "him", again, clearly being Bucky). With the way he's speaking, he's not denying about knowing about the assassination with this line, just CLEARLY lying that he didn't know it was Bucky.

"Don't bullshit me Rogers. Did you know?" <- This is Tony not believing Steve's half-hearted lie and asking him again if he knew Bucky was behind his parents' deaths

"Yes" <- this is Steve answering the question "Did you know that Bucky aka Winter Soldier killed Tony Stark's parents". He answers it with a simple yes. To put it into more words, he's saying "Yes, I knew (or had a strong hunch) Bucky killed your parents"


There are zero other ways to interpret that scene.
Click to expand...

tumblr_o6fs8p22qm1tbg2hpo2_400.gif
 
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