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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
- Thread starter Lucumo
- Start date
I don't think that is the same thing.
Exactly. No offense, but the Balkans are a whole other mess, a completely different level.
Razorback
Member
Slightly different culture and language. It's complicated, like, a thousand years complicated.
Yes, you're right, in hindsight Yugoslavia can be seen as one of history's craziest experiments gone wrong. Correct me please: 3 (?) different religions, 5-6 (?)ethnicities, major historic borders running right through it (Ottoman vs. Austrian empire/ "western" world, then Communism vs. Facism). So yeah, situation in Spain is quite different, let's hope for the best.
I'm an independentist and today is a very special day for me and for a lot of people in Catalonia. Maybe it wasn't the best way to do it, in fact I think we didn't follow the right path, but still that's what we have. Now we should wait, like slovenia did, but I think it will be harder to be recorgnized by other countries than them.
Rajoy did an smart move proclaming elections, we will see how it all ends, this will not be a matter of days.
Visca Catalunya.
Rajoy did an smart move proclaming elections, we will see how it all ends, this will not be a matter of days.
Visca Catalunya.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
This thread is against the new rules.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=252749317&postcount=2
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=252749317&postcount=2
ModBot said:
We discussed that on page 1 already. If you had read it, you would have saved yourself a post.
That's exactly the same thing that was asked on page 1 and my answer is the same one as before.
It depends. The leaders have generally announced their support for Spain's government and/or called for a dialogue. As for the people...no idea, it's not like we can speak for those directly involved.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
So are they changing their policy? No consensus was made on the first page.
The Poligaf thread was locked. Why would it be locked if they are okay with political discussions?
I just went with the (previous) BBC article headline and think it's enough when it's noted that it happened with the opposition boycotting the ballot.
Any Questions
Member
Well I guess this is a bit of a test then. I hope this thread isn't locked as I feel it's good to discuss these issues. So long as the narrative isn't full of fly by sh1t posts. I feel tat discussing something as important as this is right and proper.
PabloBolivar
Banned
As a dumb American I went to Catalonia a few years ago thinking I was still in Spain. What a shock when I realized they didn't consider themselves Spanish.
The food was much better there than in Spain btw.
PhantomZhu
Banned
You are correct, although Yugoslavia did enjoy some prosperity under Tito, who enforced the slogan 'Brotherhood and Unity', the eventual downfall was because of these tenants were remembered less with each passing day after Tito departed from leadership.
Another reason why the Spain situation will hopefully be a much more peaceful one, is because the ethnicity difference isn't even close to that of Yugo's.
I was thankfully born into mixed parenthood, so I was raised with a big dose of neutrality, but i still see spitefulness from Yugoslavians who weren't even born before or during the war.
I agree. Everyone seems to be cheering about this, in my opinion it isn't a good thing at all. More countries more frontiers more divisions. Was Spain so bad? The whole thing sounds rushed, an emotional vote and reaction but I admit I'm maybe not aware of the issues enough.
Mohonky
Member
Lots of history. Its also a wealthy area and they feel like they are paying more into Spain than getting back.
Vincent Alexander
Member
I'll further the dumb American question: anyone from the region have an opinion how this compares to Brexit in terms of stupidity? So far I've seen less people blasting the decision.
nelsonroyale
Member
On the balance, considering the way this has been handled and the friends I have in Spain, and the current situation, I support the independence push in Catalonia. Personally, I would probably favour a fully federalised state, but that isn't on the cards to the extent that many want it, particularly since Rajoy is in power and quite a bit of those supporting independence (not all by any means) are on the opposite side of the political spectrum. I hope that this incident serves to turn more of the populace in Spain against Rajoy (he is not very popular anyway I hazard) and get him thrown out of a position he hardly deserves...
Yes, Spain is self evidently a bad thing. All multi nation states are, but more so any that chose violence over dialogue.
Psyrgery ES
Member
He meant the elections, not the fake referendum which was always gping to show a made-up result no matter what could happen (according to plans written by La Generalitat seized by the police)
And Catalonia stopped being a country about 3/4 hours after theh declared Independence when Rajoy dropped thr Articulo 155 and seized Catalonia. The parliament has been disbanded, the chief of Mossos has been sacked and Puigdemont and Junqueras along the rest of the Mesa will be sent to prison sooner than later.
Not even Andorra has recognised Catalonia as a country lol.
Nope, he didn't. Look here:
Why would Andorra anyway? So far, only Slovenia is "supporting the right of nations for self-determination".
Psyrgery ES
Member
The catalan parties (JxS and CUP) for independence gathered 48% of the votes.
They were the majority in the parliament because the elections rules are a mess, but like Antonio Baños said "We cannot declare the Indepence without the majority of votes"
They are
Ah, now I know what he referred to with the middle part (the math being wrong seemed like a likely option).
I'm not that deep into the matter but wasn't it like this: explicitly secessionist parties 48%, explicitly unionist parties 39%, parties holding ambiguous stances 13%? So that 48% isn't really a thing when there is another 13% in the wild.
You can't paint them all like that. Read some good (read: rational) comments from the people yesterday but can't find it anymore.
Psyrgery ES
Member
Those 13% from Podemos have always been against DUI. They supported the idea of Referendum, but not DUI. So I'd say they were 61% for referendum and 51% against DUI.
I know we can't paint them all as delusional, it's the same as most of us against independence, independentist think we are brainless PP voters that do not care about their corrupt endeavors. I wish they would all end in jail.
deathkiller
Member
They are in the wild regarding what they would vote in an agreed referendum but they voted against the declaration of independence and against the illegal referendum.
What they have done is clearly without the support of the majority of the Catalonian people. May be there is a majority in favour of independence but not this way.
Like I said before, I'm not that deep into the matter, so I can't really say where those 13% would have ended up (or make speculations about it).
From what I've gathered from discussions, the people behind the movement who are spurring it obviously want to secede because of economic reasons. To attempt that (or to get concessions), they have basically gathered several groups of people (those who seriously believe in this for several reasons, those who want a symbolic victory etc) under one banner.
nelsonroyale
Member
The Spanish Government seems delusional and detached from reality
mario_O
Member
The fact that millions of people want to leave spain IS a reality. Ignoring this is what's actually delusional. Calling for new elections in december isn't going to change this reality. The catalan problem will only end with a legal referendum.
michaelius
Banned
Does EU still need everyone to agree to admit new member? If yes then this will be problematic for them as Spain will likely block it for years.
Madrugador
Member
Would be amazing if Barcelona started playing in the French League like Monaco.
cebri.one
Member
The fact that also millions want to stay in Spain is a reality too.
mario_O
Member
Yes, and 80% of catalonians want a referendum to solve this issue. You can't ignore 80%. Let them vote.
Hissing Sid
Member
Yeah but those people dont make for flag-waving picturebyte moments, so it doesnt count.
You must not have eaten that much around Spain, I can tell you there are wonderful foods all around Spain.
As a catalan I am happy that the spanish government has removed from executive power the current catalan government. Main reason being that, in my opinion, the catalan government and the majority in the parlament was acting against the basic fundaments of democracy and therefore eroding my rights as a citizen.
I do not intend to convince anyone but I want to make a explicit statement so that people who are only superficially informed know that some catalans think as I do.
I do not intend to convince anyone but I want to make a explicit statement so that people who are only superficially informed know that some catalans think as I do.
Patrick S.
Banned
So the solution to this mess was as easy as Rajoy just telling Puidgdemont he's fired?
About the same. Rich people appealing to the 'sentiment' of the young and poorer to 'take back control' (and get richer in the process).
You hear more about Brexit because it is actually happening. The Catalan government does not have the lawful authority to break away from Spain so it's all symbolic gestures.
For better or worse, the current Spanish Constitution does not allow a binding referendum for Catalans only. For Cataluña to break from Spain, the referendum would have to be approved by all Spanish citizens, not just those in Cataluña, as the outcome affects the whole of the country.
mario_O
Member
Obviuosly: that's why they can't vote, and why they should change it. It's the only way to solve this situation. Spanish Constitution says a lot of things, many of which the spanish government does not obey every single day. You can't have a Constitution from 1978, in a completely different world, with no amendments.
BlitzerRadic
Member
A mod said the Mueller investigation (which has obvious political elements) thread could stay open as long as the discussion stays civil.
Based on that, I believe political topic threads are OK if they are current events and if they start to get out of control they will get locked.
marcbret87
Member
For the record, pretty much no constitution recognises the right to secession. Also, most constitutions are in fact older than the Spanish one.
SMOK3Y
Generous Member
Yes you can, ask US about 2nd amendment 😊
mario_O
Member
In the UK they had a referendum.
And most Constitutions have changed a lot since they were first established, like the US Constitution.