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[Fred-87]

People saying that this independence movement is about "defending their identity" because they feel "detached" from the rest of the country are simply delusional. Well, maybe that's their reason (and to a certain extent it makes sense considering how bad this situation was managed during the past years by the central government), but for sure it's not the one that Mas, Puigdemont and the rest of the political class have in mind. For them, It's all about money, you are just being misled.

That's not what needs to be discussed today tho.

BTW, rallies all around Spain to support the right to vote and to condemn the violence. I guess not all Spaniards are fascists after all

EDIT: https://twitter.com/15MBcn_int/status/914555577447206912

You think the population has no hear and soul? That they are robots? Maybe THEY want seperation. They dont care about their leaders motivation. They themselfes wanted it for hundreds of years. Look at Catalonia history.

 

[ty_hot]

And the irony in all this is that had Madrid "allowed" the vote to take place unhindered it probably would have been voted down and the issue of Catalan independence dead for at least a generation like what happened in Quebec.

But the PP government needed some story to run the headlines and hide their bad stuff (corruption, etc). It backfired though.

 

[His Majesty]

Macron has declared that he supports the constitutional unity of Spain. Not a single word about violence or human rights.

 

[Soph]

Top right pic is fake.

Yikes

 

[trembli0s]

Macron has declared that he supports the constitutional unity of Spain. Not a single word about violence or human rights.

Why would he support this? Every world leader, besides Putin maybe, will say the exact same thing. You don't get to unilaterally vote for independence because you don't like what the democratically elected government is doing.

The fact that Catalans don't realize the EU would always be vehemently opposed to separatist movements is kind of shocking to me.

Who goes next: the Flemish, the South Tiroli, the Basques, the Alsace? There is no logical end point to these divisions. Really these regions are just poor shaming less developed parts of their respective countries and it's disgraceful.

The EU doesn't become stronger by being a supranational federation of a bunch of bitching microstates with no military and 30+ languages.

 

[Metal B]

Macron has declared that he supports the constitutional unity of Spain. Not a single word about violence or human rights.

I really love, that innocent until disproven becomes one sides, if the victim looks innocent. We pretty much have to sides claiming different stories:
The police says, that people tried to compete in a illegal activity and wouldn't back up. Since there was no other possibility, they needed to use force to remove those people.
On the other side we have the Catalonian (well the minority of them), who say, that they were just peacefully voting (in a illegal election), as the police were forcing them out.

We have one party outnumbering another one, which only options to enforce the law, was to use violence. I don't see innocent people on both sides, even so the black and white story of the beaten revolution sounds SO romantic. But social media only shows one side as the victim, because as we learned, we really should trust social media by now ...

Both had an clear agenda, but only one actually has the balls to stand for it. And it's not the Catalonian! Instead of saying, that they opposed the system, they now trying to use the system against itself. "See, they are the evil ones, not us who try to break democratic laws to break away from democratic laws!".

But maybe i am biased, because i already have made my mind up, that the Catalonian sound selfish, voracious and manipulated by right-wing machine.

 

[KingSnake]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41472985

Catalan President Carles Puigdemont has said he is not planning a "traumatic" split with Spain, after a disputed independence referendum on Sunday.
He said he wanted a new understanding with the central government in Madrid.

Finally some reason in this whole insanity.

 

[Dragner]

https://twitter.com/Dani_CCardenas/status/914496461831835648

Cant even...and some still defend this

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

The problem is a basque solution is not sustainable. The basque country is effectively subsidised by the rest of the country. But, compare... Basque country PIB is around 70 billion euros. Catalonia? Over 200 billion.

 

[trembli0s]

The problem is a basque solution is not sustainable. The basque country is effectively subsidised by the rest of the country. But, compare... Basque country PIB is around 70 billion euros. Catalonia? Over 200 billion.

At this rate they're going to need an entirely new constitution. They simply can't afford these special deals for each region. Time to pay the tax man.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

At this rate they're going to need an entirely new constitution. They simply can't afford these special deals for each region. Time to pay the tax man.

Reforming our constitution is an ordeal. The reform process was specifically designed so that it would be next to impossible to change some things.

 

[Night Terror]

I'm a catalan person, whose parents are from Andalucia and came here over 30 years ago.

Up to this point I've never been into the independance movement. I always respected it but never found myself represented there. Never went on 9/11 (yes, it's our national day here and it has been for a long time, for the uninformed ) to the manifestations.

This has changed over the course of the last few months. I simply can't stand the spanish goverment anymore. Our political parties are a damn joke, one is basically the legacy of Franco, the other simply has forgotten the place it comes from and how hard the people who founded it had to fight for 40 years. Don't even get me started on the royal family.

Seeing some of the replies here break my soul. Literally. Yesterday I went to vote. Most of our town (we have around 10.000 people living here if I am not mistaken) had gathered in front of the voting place. There was absolutely old people who lived through Franco's regime going to vote -- they had waited and dreamed of this day for a lifetime. We applauded them. People that I know never go to vote anymore, people that I know voted "No"/blank/null, people in general, just wanting to vote, stayed there from morning to night until the results came in, just in case the National Police would come.

I want you all to understand what I just wrote above means. Because most of you will probably never see it by yourselves.

 

[correojon]

The problem is a basque solution is not sustainable. The basque country is effectively subsidised by the rest of the country. But, compare... Basque country PIB is around 70 billion euros. Catalonia? Over 200 billion.

What are you talking about? Of course the total PIB is lower in the Basque Country, it only has 2 million inhabitants compared to the 7.5M Catalonia has. But the PIB per capita of the Basque Country is actually higher (32000€ BC, 28000€ Cat). BC´s debt is 11000 M € while Cataluña´s is 53000 M €. The debt per inhabitant is of 10000€ for Cataluña and only of 5000€ in the Basque Country. An independent Basque Country is actually much more sustainable than an independent Cataluña.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

What are you talking about? Of course the total PIB is lower in the Basque Country, it only has 2 million inhabitants compared to the 7.5M Catalonia has. But the PIB per capita of the Basque Country is actually higher (32000€ BC, 28000€ Cat). BC´s debt is 11000 M € while Cataluña´s is 53000 M €. The debt per inhabitant is of 10000€ for Cataluña and only of 5000€ in the Basque Country. An independent Basque Country is actually much more sustainable than an independent Cataluña.

You're so much into propaganda mode... I'm talking that the current model of subsidising the basque country is unsutainable when we're talking about an economy 4 times the size.

 

[ClosingADoor]

This has changed over the course of the last few months. I simply can't stand the spanish goverment anymore. Our political parties are a damn joke, one is basically the legacy of Franco, the other simply has forgotten the place it comes from and how hard the people who founded it had to fight for 40 years. Don't even get me started on the royal family.

Don't you think going independent because you are unhappy with today's politics might be a very drastic change, for something that could be fixed by the next elections?

 

[Night Terror]

Don't you think going independent because you are unhappy with today's politics might be a very drastic change, for something that could be fixed by the next elections?

It won't be changed by the next election's unfortuanately. It will take us many, many years to fix the wounds that run deep in Spain.

 

[deathkiller]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41472985



Finally some reason in this whole insanity.

I read that as in "If everything goes bad it will totally not be my fault". Even after what happened yesterday negotiating a change in the constitution to make referendums legal would be extremely hard. Negotiating a "new understanding" (aka we are independent already so lets talk about debt and other things) is completely impossible right now.

We are still in the "things have to get worse before they get better" mode.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Does the PP know this is a fake parody account?

 

[shiyrley]

Does the PP know this is a fake parody account?

Does the PP know ______?

No

 

[PdotMichael]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41472985



Finally some reason in this whole insanity.

Chickened out I see.

 

[Ethelwulf]

Why would he support this? Every world leader, besides Putin maybe, will say the exact same thing. You don't get to unilaterally vote for independence because you don't like what the democratically elected government is doing.

The fact that Catalans don't realize the EU would always be vehemently opposed to separatist movements is kind of shocking to me.

Who goes next: the Flemish, the South Tiroli, the Basques, the Alsace? There is no logical end point to these divisions. Really these regions are just poor shaming less developed parts of their respective countries and it's disgraceful.

The EU doesn't become stronger by being a supranational federation of a bunch of bitching microstates with no military and 30+ languages.

Multilanguage is OK in my book. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[His Majesty]

Why would he support this? Every world leader, besides Putin maybe, will say the exact same thing. You don't get to unilaterally vote for independence because you don't like what the democratically elected government is doing.

The fact that Catalans don't realize the EU would always be vehemently opposed to separatist movements is kind of shocking to me.

Who goes next: the Flemish, the South Tiroli, the Basques, the Alsace? There is no logical end point to these divisions. Really these regions are just poor shaming less developed parts of their respective countries and it's disgraceful.

The EU doesn't become stronger by being a supranational federation of a bunch of bitching microstates with no military and 30+ languages.

You're completely missing the point. Macron should not recognize the legality of the referendum but condemn the disproportionate violence displayed by the Spanish government.

Staying quiet on the matter means silent acceptance of a huge breach of human rights in a modern democracy, which is unworthy of a European head of state.

I really love, that innocent until disproven becomes one sides, if the victim looks innocent. We pretty much have to sides claiming different stories:
The police says, that people tried to compete in a illegal activity and wouldn't back up. Since there was no other possibility, they needed to use force to remove those people.
On the other side we have the Catalonian (well the minority of them), who say, that they were just peacefully voting (in a illegal election), as the police were forcing them out.

We have one party outnumbering another one, which only options to enforce the law, was to use violence. I don't see innocent people on both sides, even so the black and white story of the beaten revolution sounds SO romantic. But social media only shows one side as the victim, because as we learned, we really should trust social media by now ...

Both had an clear agenda, but only one actually has the balls to stand for it. And it's not the Catalonian! Instead of saying, that they opposed the system, they now trying to use the system against itself. "See, they are the evil ones, not us who try to break democratic laws to break away from democratic laws!".

But maybe i am biased, because i already have made my mind up, that the Catalonian sound selfish, voracious and manipulated by right-wing machine.

There is only one side to this story. The Catalonians participated in an illegal but peaceful referendum to which the Spanish government saw no other solution than to beat people bloody with their batons. This is a completely disproportionate reaction and something you would expect under a dictatorship, but not in a Western European democracy.

You are of course free to be distristful of the intents of the Catalonian government but there is absolutely NO reason to be accepting of the excessive display of force coming from the Spanish government.

 

[Dragner]

Dont forget that in most civilizated countries, police cant beat people just because they are doing something illegal, and if they dont move just detain them, if they resist ask for reinforcements, if then you are overwhelmed and you are in danger THEN you can use force. Police was giving one chance and then started charging against people even when they were hands up or in the ground.

 

[petran79]

Some of the videos I've seen would suggest otherwise. All of this paints Spain in a very bad light - it should never have got to this stage.

Beating your own citizens like that? It's just disgusting. In one video I saw a policeman did a virtual flying leap to kick someone down some stairs. Then kick a lady in the head who was trying to hold on to the banister of the stairs etc. Just sick and pathetic.

Police in Spain were violent in other cases too

http://time.com/4007349/spain-evictions-housing-crisis/

To make matters worse, the victims often suffer astonishing heartlessness at the hands of police. “The officers kick people to the ground and even push fingers into their eyes,” says Kudacki. But the most brutal treatment, he discovered, is reserved for members of the press. "The police don’t want to be the face of the evictions, because they are just executing an order delivered by a judge. But they will execute it no matter what.” During one eviction, Kudacki was arrested and faced up to four years in prison before his lawyers managed to get his case dropped.

 

[Showaddy]

Dont forget that in most civilizated countries, police cant beat people just because they are doing something illegal, and if they dont move just detain them, if they resist ask for reinforcements, if then you are overwhelmed and you are in danger THEN you can use force. Police was giving one chance and then started charging against people even when they were hands up or in the ground.

Not really surprising when the riot officers don't wear any individual markers or insignia and all complaints are dealt with internally. Zero accountability.

 

[Anticol]

People saying that this independence movement is about "defending their identity" because they feel "detached" from the rest of the country are simply delusional. Well, maybe that's their reason (and to a certain extent it makes sense considering how bad this situation was managed during the past years by the central government), but for sure it's not the one that Mas, Puigdemont and the rest of the political class have in mind. For them, It's all about money, you are just being misled.

That's not what needs to be discussed today tho.

BTW, rallies all around Spain to support the right to vote and to condemn the violence. I guess not all Spaniards are fascists after all

EDIT: https://twitter.com/15MBcn_int/status/914555577447206912

Spaniards are not fascists, they are really really racists tho.

 

[Dragner]

Not really surprising when the riot officers don't wear any individual markers or insignia and all complaints are dealt with internally. Zero accountability.

If you dare to ask for the number they will just beat you to death, I know from friends on police that riot officers are giving orders by their superiors to hide their insignias so they cant be indentified. Thats the level of spanish police.

Spaniards are not fascists, they are really really racists tho.

True, and this comes from a spaniard. Spaniards are really racist and mysoginist, all fruit of poor education and rotten institutions build on the back of fascism.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Macron has declared that he supports the constitutional unity of Spain. Not a single word about violence or human rights.

How big(or small) is occitan nationalism?

 

[Ixion090]

Spaniards are not fascists, they are really really racists tho.

As a "sudaca", I agree.

 

[deathkiller]

Dont forget that in most civilizated countries, police cant beat people just because they are doing something illegal, and if they dont move just detain them, if they resist ask for reinforcements, if then you are overwhelmed and you are in danger THEN you can use force. Police was giving one chance and then started charging against people even when they were hands up or in the ground.

I read this and I can only think "Oh sweet summer child", as I said before this is the Catalonian police https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R91g7C2295U and in almost every country you can see examples of that kind of behaviour. If you think otherwise you have only watched "whitewashed" versions of police interventions.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Spaniards are not fascists, they are really really racists tho.

There are some fascists groups tho

 

[Stumpokapow]

Given that the vote has occurred and much of the discussion now stems from protests, police mobilization, and the tenuous political survival of both the Catalan and Spanish governments, I think it would be appropriate to make a new thread with an up to date (and, I must stress this, neutral and factual) OP and a title that accurately characterizes the current state of affairs. PM me and I will lock this one when this happens.

 

[Ferr986]

Spaniards are not fascists, they are really really racists tho.

"We" are both really.

 

[User123456]

Not really surprising when the riot officers don't wear any individual markers or insignia and all complaints are dealt with internally. Zero accountability.

Isn't this false though? Don't all units wear uniquely identifying numbers on their vests? Pretty sure that's the case.

 

[Anticol]

There are some fascists groups tho

Oh yes there are, mostly in Madrid, a city who claims to be open to anyone but is really racist and fascist in general. But if you compare fascism against racism in Spain pretty there is a ton more of the latter.

 

[tolkir]

I read this and I can only think "Oh sweet summer child", as I said before this is the Catalonian police https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R91g7C2295U and in almost every country you can see examples of that kind of behaviour. If you think otherwise you have only watched "whitewashed" versions of police interventions.

Until two or three years ago Mossos were considered most brutal police in Spain, probably the death of a guy beaten by 8 Mossos changed something on the department.

Btw, they didn't go to the jail.

 

[Dragner]

Oh yes there are, mostly in Madrid, a city who claims to be open to anyone but is really racist and fascist in general. But if you compare fascism against racism in Spain pretty there is a ton more of the latter.

Well, actually madrid is governed by Ahora Madrid, a leftist party, it was governed for long by PP but several corruption cases made people change the vote, so theres still hope...btw Madrid is going better than ever from the economic standpoint right now.

 

[gutter_trash]

Most military members with access to classified information take some sort of secrecy oath/pact. But yes, if they did not do that then there would be no crime.

That is not really comparable. Spain was unified under marriage of two royal houses. Ireland was taken by military force and subjugated.

autonomous powers were subsequently diluted and diminished after the union of Castile with Aragon.


the revolts during the 16th Century were in retalitation against further weakening of autonomous powers

 

[gutter_trash]

Macron has declared that he supports the constitutional unity of Spain. Not a single word about violence or human rights.

duh, the French are the most repressive out of the big European countries towards histroical minority linguistic groups.

France does not recognise Breton or Occitan as protected languages.

at least Spain does regonise Catalan and Galego as languages

 

[ty_hot]

Bus and metro working with only 25% of their vehicles tomorrow at peak hours in Barcelona. Lots of public services will be closed. My University will be closed.

Gonna be at home all day long.

 

[KingSnake]

Spain cut short training session as Gerard Pique receives hostile reception

Gerard Pique's perceived stance on Catalan independence saw Spain training abandoned after 23 minutes as unhappy fans made their feelings known about the Barcelona defender.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

General strike declared:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ds-general-strike-protest-referendum-violence

BONUS: Watch the policia who acted so bravely against the old ladies and people in wheelchairs justify their actions to the protesters!

Guardian Wire: Spain's national police flee station after protesters rally outside - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lak5gh-V9s0

 

[Ferr986]

Spain cut short training session as Gerard Pique receives hostile reception

Funny thing he only said he's pro vote not pro independence. A lot of Spanish football selection fans are embarassing.

I'm working today but really, almost whole Catalonia is on strike.

 

[tolkir]

Funny thing he only said he's pro vote not pro independence. A lot of Spanish football selection fans are embarassing.

I'm working today but really, almost whole Catalonia is on strike.

He was encouraging to vote an ilegal referendum a few days ago. I don't know why a pro vote would say that.

 

[veryslowhand]

Pique is known leftist radical, supporting groups that dont condemn violence among other disgusting views.

 

[Anticol]

He was encouraging to vote an ilegal referendum a few days ago. I don't know why a pro vote would say that.

Spain is still as racist and fascist as when Franco was in power, they are about to repeat those times and if they do, they will deserve what they'll get.

 

[tolkir]

Spain is still as racist and fascist as when Franco was in power, they are about to repeat those times and if they do, they will deserve what they'll get.

 

[marcbret87]

Why would he support this? Every world leader, besides Putin maybe, will say the exact same thing. You don't get to unilaterally vote for independence because you don't like what the democratically elected government is doing.

The fact that Catalans don't realize the EU would always be vehemently opposed to separatist movements is kind of shocking to me.

Who goes next: the Flemish, the South Tiroli, the Basques, the Alsace? There is no logical end point to these divisions. Really these regions are just poor shaming less developed parts of their respective countries and it's disgraceful.

The EU doesn't become stronger by being a supranational federation of a bunch of bitching microstates with no military and 30+ languages.

I tried to reason that with my friend and family (I am catalan but I live abroad), and it's no use. I already saw before that it was next to impossible to have a reasonable discussion with them, but after Sunday it's just impossible.

 

[marcbret87]

Spain is still as racist and fascist as when Franco was in power, they are about to repeat those times and if they do, they will deserve what they'll get.

I mean, come on, if they were as fascist as you claim they would have cracked down on the independence movement a long time ago.

 

[Anticol]

Oh right, you posted a gif you must be right.

Keep living a lie m8, you guys are racist towards everyone, latinos are treated like shit when they go there or move there, and if you are black it is even worse.