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[KarneeKarnay]

To those saying this is not illegal.

... .Catalans will be asked whether they want to form an independent republic. But there is a problem: Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place.

The problem with a vote like this is that by not being agreed to by the Spanish Government, it essentially means anyone who wants to vote is breaking the law. The only people who want to vote in this scenario will be those that want independence, because the only people who don't want it, won't take part because it's illegal.

The issue behind all this lies with recent changes in the region.

Two things combined to increase support for independence. First, Spain’s Constitutional Tribunal rejected parts of a new statute that would have given Catalonia more autonomy. More importantly, nationalist politicians in Barcelona succeeded in deflecting against Madrid popular anger at the austerity that followed the bursting of Spain’s housing and financial bubble in 2009.

Neither side is innocent in all this. In theory the correct course would have been to call for a referendum, get rejected by Spain government, take it to the courts and then the European High Courts.

The problem for Catalans independence movement is that they only won a very slim majority this election and in theory they stand to lose the longer they don't make gains. This referendum won't work out for them unless they get the Spanish government to recgonise it. The EU won't because it stands with the Spanish government for now.


The extracts were taken form The Economist article on the issue.

Well worth a read.

Also please check out Debating Europe. They've got a lot of information on the subject and it's really easy to digest.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

That would've been the logical solution. The current spanish gvt hasn't taken a local solution like, never. They are moved by fear and hate.

Btw where is the Bourbon King? Why hasn't he addressed his supposed people? So fucking useless.

Yeah, the reasonable parties (PSOE, Podemos) have put forward different approaches to this problem for years now while PP put their fingers in their ears and yell "LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA" and an occasional whisper of "arriba España".
That's why the opposition was absent, they have been fighting against this for years and everyone is in utter shock by the sheer hatred and incompetence of our government.

About the King... Well, if I were King I wouldn't know what to say, being aware that the institution is useless and unpopular outside of PP supporters.

 

[curi0usBystander]

At least in the last regional election as far as I know the pro-independence parties didn't get the majority, no?

Correct, they got only a seat majority but not a vote majority.

 

[Izuna]

Not according to the vote that just took place.

Silence is consent in democracy.

Considering the circumstances, that's very naive thinking.

 

[Theonik]

At least in the last regional election as far as I know the pro-independence parties didn't get the majority, no?

40% for the secessionist party in coalition with another pro-independence party that got 8.1% if they didn't, then this referendum never would have happened.

 

[kami_sama]

Won’t happen because if Catalonia’s got validated it would give grounds to the Basque Country to also pursue theirs. It would be the end of Spain.


Not saying the people shouldn’t push for one, but it’s certainly not gonna come from the Madrid authorities.

Also, Europe wouldn't recognize it.
There are lots of separatist movements in a lot of countries.

 

[KingSnake]

Correct, they got only a seat majority but not a vote majority.

40% for the secessionist party in coalition with another pro-independence party that got 8.1% if they didn't, then this referendum never would have happened.

So my point stands, you need quite a bit more than 48.1% for such a big decision like this.

 

[YourMaster]

I think we can state with high certainty that the people who did go out and vote were the ones who wanted secession. This makes the 90% result out of the 40-45% turn out very unsurprising. But no one can really say with any sort of certainty what a larger turn out would have voted for. By declaring the referendum illegitimate and then cracking down on voters, the Spanish government did succeed in making the voting process effectively pointless. It's an incredibly bad look though.

I agree. But what you can say is that there's significant enough support that this issue deserves to be taken very seriously. That meant either looking into a proper way for Catalonia to leave(so make a roadmap, decide how to handle people wanting to remain Spanish, and determine if and how to keep EU membership) and have people vote on THAT, or Spain as a whole needs to look into where it is failing into making millions of people happy to be part of their country and address that.

 

[marcbret87]

40% is a high turnout given that the referendum was not binding in the first place.

You confusing this with the 9th November 2014. This is meant to be binding, the government in Barcelona is supposed to declare independence in 48 hours according to the laws they passed.

 

[nelsonroyale]

I think we can state with high certainty that the people who did go out and vote were the ones who wanted secession. This makes the 90% result out of the 40-45% turn out very unsurprising. But no one can really say with any sort of certainty what a larger turn out would have voted for. By declaring the referendum illegitimate and then cracking down on voters, the Spanish government did succeed in making the voting process effectively pointless. It's an incredibly bad look though.

Hardly, in fact they were provoked into baring their teeth, which will rile the left across the country even more, despite probably general opposition to Catalan independence. Furthermore, this will spur demands from independence, rather than suppress them. I doubt many people thought that the referendum would achieve immediate independence, but rather a statement of intent which they could use as a platform to present to the international community, and pressure the Spanish government to negotiate - which they won't do in the current atmosphere. I think this is more than a bad look for the Spanish government, who are pretty fucking unpopular in Spain. Rajoy is a grade A wank stain.

 

[duckroll]

I agree. But what you can say is that there's significant enough support that this issue deserves to be taken very seriously. That meant either looking into a proper way for Catalonia to leave(so make a roadmap, decide how to handle people wanting to remain Spanish, and determine if and how to keep EU membership) and have people vote on THAT, or Spain as a whole needs to look into where it is failing into making millions of people happy to be part of their country and address that.

The fact that they sent riot police to beat voters was enough of a sign that they took it really seriously, just that they reacted in the worst possible way. There has to be dialogue moving forward because the entire situation is a shameful display of governance.

Hardly, in fact they were provoked into baring their teeth, which will rile the left across the country even more, despite probably general opposition to Catalan independence. Furthermore, this will spur demands from independence, rather than suppress them. I doubt many people thought that the referendum would achieve immediate independence, but rather a statement of intent which they could use as a platform to present to the international community, and pressure the Spanish government to negotiate - which they won't do in the current atmosphere. I think this is more than a bad look for the Spanish government, who are pretty fucking unpopular in Spain. Rajoy is a grade A wank stain.

I don't disagree with any of this? I'm just saying that Rajoy was so desperate to make the vote illegitimate that he went for the most blunt tool possible. The tool worked for the immediate result he wanted - no one can say it was a fair and proper referendum. But it doesn't solve any of his problems on this matter. He's a moron.

 

[kiguel182]

But it's not.
People voting no had a much tinier incentive to vote. It's not like both sides viewed this illegal referendum equally.

3 million people who want out so bad they are willing to go out and vote under threat of police violence isn't something that should be ignored.

Who knows how many people would've voted if everything went out smoothly and legally. Part of the reason the Spanish response was dumb was that it gave more strength to "leavers" any way.

 

[Auto_aim1]

Is there a link or summary that explains the whole thing to people who don't know much about this issue?

Edit: Nvm I found this article. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29478415

 

[nelsonroyale]

The fact that they sent riot police to beat voters was enough of a sign that they took it really seriously, just that they reacted in the worst possible way. There has to be dialogue moving forward because the entire situation is a shameful display of governance.



I don't disagree with any of this? I'm just saying that Rajoy was so desperate to make the vote illegitimate that he went for the most blunt tool possible. The tool worked for the immediate result he wanted - no one can say it was a fair and proper referendum. But it doesn't solve any of his problems on this matter. He's a moron.

Fair enough, sorry for misunderstanding your stance then.

I think this going to messy, in fact it seems to me this is going to be an incredibly messy century for Spain and Europe as a whole. There is apparently some cool stuff going on at the Mayoral and local level in Spain, new experiments in democracy, community and development, but the federal level and economy are massively problemantic...Materialy, things haven't got 'bad enough' to descend into civil strife...thankfully

90% of 40% is still higher than the Conservative mandate in the UK.

 

[Westbahnhof]

3 million people who want out so bad they are willing to go out and vote under threat of police violence isn't something that should be ignored.

Who knows how many people would've voted if everything went out smoothly and legally. Part of the reason the Spanish response was dumb was that it gave more strength to "leavers" any way.

It shouldn't be ignored.
But it shouldn't be interpreted as anything else than "there needs to be a proper referendum, binding or not".
We knew beforehand the election that many people want independence, and even more want to vote on it.

But in my eyes, these circumstances prohibit us from simply saying "See? Independence is the will of the majority". Which some here seem to think.

 

[KonradLaw]

Not according to the vote that just took place.

Silence is consent in democracy.

Not in referendums. Not voting has long been a legitimate way of derailing them.

 

[kami_sama]

It shouldn't be ignored.
But it shouldn't be interpreted as anything else than "there needs to be a proper referendum, binding or not".
We knew beforehand the election that many people want independence, and even more want to vote on it.

But in my eyes, these circumstances prohibit us from simply saying "See? Independence is the will of the majority". Which some here seem to think.

Yeah. That's what should happen. There should be another referendum, this time legally.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Yeah. That's what should happen. There should be another referendum, this time legally.

The problem is that secession would still be legally impossible until the constitution is changed.
I think the problems are obvious to everyone in here, and I don't think there is an immediate solution.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

The problem is that secession would still be legally impossible until the constitution is changed.
I think the problems are obvious to everyone in here, and I don't think there is an immediate solution.

The constitution can be changed through the courts.You are correct that there is no immediate solution. I do think that the independence movement in Catalan might have made it harder to seek a legal solution.

 

[Westbahnhof]

The constitution can be changed through the courts.You are correct that there is no immediate solution. I do think that the independence movement in Catalan might have made it harder to seek a legal solution.

It can, and I think it should.
It's disheartening to see the long way ahead, is all I'm thinking right now.
Obviously people are unhappy. I'm just glad I have no say in this at all, because it's discouragingly complex to disarm this powder keg

 

[tolkir]

The fact that they sent riot police to beat voters was enough of a sign that they took it really seriously, just that they reacted in the worst possible way. There has to be dialogue moving forward because the entire situation is a shameful display of governance.

Seriously, they didn't send police to beat voters, they only wanted to confiscate the ballot boxes and close the schools but voters didn't let them and the shit happened.

I'm totally agree that the force was excessive, but reading some of you, it looks like the police were there to beat people because they were voting. That's false.

 

[Theonik]

So my point stands, you need quite a bit more than 48.1% for such a big decision like this.

More than 50% of the parliament actually, works out to 45 and 10% in seats respectively, but this is why they had a referendum and not just seceded. People don't vote on single issues in general elections after all. It is perfectly conceivable that a yes voter would vote something else, and a no voter would vote the coalition partner equally.

The problem is that secession would still be legally impossible until the constitution is changed.
I think the problems are obvious to everyone in here, and I don't think there is an immediate solution.

In questions of sovereignty legality does not really apply. If you cannot exert your dominion over a land why should people listen to your puny laws?
Auctoritas non veritas facit legem etc etc

 

[KingSnake]

More than 50% of the parliament actually, works out to 45 and 10% in seats respectively, but this is why they had a referendum and not just seceded. People don't vote on single issues in general elections after all. It is perfectly conceivable that a yes voter would vote something else, and a no voter would vote the coalition partner equally.

Yes and the referendum besides being illegal and not properly organised didn't have more than 50% participation rate so they are now back to square 1: finding a way to get legitimacy for the independence claim.

 

[Westbahnhof]

In questions of sovereignty legality does not really apply. If you cannot exert your dominion over a land why should people listen to your puny laws?
Auctoritas non veritas facit legem etc etc

My concern is this:
I went to school with many (back then referred to as) Yugoslavian children, from families that had fled from the war.
I don't with anything like what these kids suffered through on anyone.
An illegal secession has at least a chance to cause a war. That's my problem here.

 

[andythinkpad]

So what's next? Catalonia Independence Army bombing campaign?

 

[User123456]

Seriously, they didn't send police to beat voters, they only wanted to confiscate the ballot boxes and close the schools but voters didn't let them and the shit happened.

I'm totally agree that the force was excessive, but reading some of you looks like the police were there to beat people because they were voting. That's false.

I've got several people who felt the sticks on their ribs telling me that the police came swinging from the get-go, and I don't find that hard to believe after seeing some of the videos.

 

[Theonik]

Yes and the referendum besides being illegal and not properly organised didn't have more than 50% participation rate so they are now back to square 1: finding a way to get legitimacy for the independence claim.

Onus is on the Spanish government to offer a solution or the Catalans will do as they will.

My concern is this:
I went to school with many (back then referred to as) Yugoslavian children, from families that had fled from the war.
I don't with anything like what these kids suffered through on anyone.
An illegal secession has at least a chance to cause a war. That's my problem here.

I can understand the sentiment but I don't see this as a solution.

 

[ecosse_011172]

Seriously, they didn't send police to beat voters, they only wanted to confiscate the ballot boxes and close the schools but voters didn't let them and the shit happened.

I'm totally agree that the force was excessive, but reading some of you, it looks like the police were there to beat people because they were voting. That's false.

Many videos show that to be horseshit

 

[KingSnake]

Onus is on the Spanish government to offer a solution or the Catalans will do as they will.

Point being that "as they will" is in limbo in the absence of a majority to support that.

 

[veryslowhand]

Let's make a referendum for a republic country wide and start talking from there.

 

[tolkir]

Many videos show that to be horseshit

Many videos are 2 minutes long and you can't see who started and why it's happening.

Again, the force was out of proportion, nobody argues that.

 

[Westbahnhof]

I can understand the sentiment but I don't see this as a solution.

I already said that I see no immediate solution. Nothing realistic.

 

[Coxy100]

Seriously, they didn't send police to beat voters, they only wanted to confiscate the ballot boxes and close the schools but voters didn't let them and the shit happened.

I'm totally agree that the force was excessive, but reading some of you, it looks like the police were there to beat people because they were voting. That's false.

Some of the videos I've seen would suggest otherwise. All of this paints Spain in a very bad light - it should never have got to this stage.

Beating your own citizens like that? It's just disgusting. In one video I saw a policeman did a virtual flying leap to kick someone down some stairs. Then kick a lady in the head who was trying to hold on to the banister of the stairs etc. Just sick and pathetic.

 

[Palette Swap]

Honestly, Rajoy managed to make a better case for independence than any nationalist ever could.

 

[Oriel]

Lol at all these constitutional scholars here declaring democracy in Catalonia "illegitimate". Let's just ignore the fact that most countries have been born into this world not through refefenda but through force of arms and violent revolt. The US Declaration of Independence was not only deemed "illegitimate" it was declared treason by Britain.

If a parent country refuses to let a part go what does the wanabee independent state just shrugs its shoulders and accepts its fate? If that was the case decolonisation would never have happened.

 

[KingSnake]

Lol at all these constitutional scholars here declaring democracy in Catalonia "illegitimate". Let's just ignore the fact that most countries have been born into this world not through refefenda but through force of arms and violent revolt. The US Declaration of Independence was not only deemed "illegitimate" it was declared treason by Britain.

If a parent country refuses to let a part go what does the wanabee independent state just shrugs its shoulders and accepts its fate? If that was the case decolonisation would never have happened.

So what you're saying is that Catalonia should go to war against Spain.

 

[His Majesty]

Internal matters you resolve internally. Also happens in the USA, well until Trump, but I doubt we want Merkel on twitter going "RAJOY!? Total Scumbag, Franco loving fascist! Should be fired! #MDWG (Mache Deutschland Wieder Grossartig)."

All in all this has cost Spain A LOT of points on the European stage, and it'snot over yet. If Rajoy cracks down even harder when the Catalan nationalists declare independence? Yeah....

Internal affairs turn into European affairs when human rights are being defiled left and right.

 

[Kain]

There will be no war, we have no army and the populace is not armed in general. In case of violence we will fight with sticks and stones lol

 

[User123456]

There will be no war, we have no army and the populace is not armed in general. In case of violence we will fight with sticks and stones lol

Pretty much. If there is violence, we catalans will be on the receiving end. The catalan people are both peaceful and unarmed, and the catalan independence movement specifically calls for peace during its acts and demonstrations.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Lol at all these constitutional scholars here declaring democracy in Catalonia "illegitimate". Let's just ignore the fact that most countries have been born into this world not through refefenda but through force of arms and violent revolt. The US Declaration of Independence was not only deemed "illegitimate" it was declared treason by Britain.

If a parent country refuses to let a part go what does the wanabee independent state just shrugs its shoulders and accepts its fate? If that was the case decolonisation would never have happened.

So what do you think they should do?
Acknowledge this referendum, declare independence tonight, and then see what happens?
Maybe arm themselves first?

You're right about using arms and revolt. That's how it often went. Usually.
But you didn't exactly explain how you thinks this translates for this situation.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Let's make a referendum for a republic country wide and start talking from there.

That's a referendum I would support.

 

[User123456]

That's a referendum I would support.

Unfortunately nowhere near as much support for a spanish republic vs a catalan republic. It's just not something that occupies the mind of spaniards like it occupies the mind of catalans. That said, I'd welcome it with open arms.

 

[Oriel]

So what you're saying is that Catalonia should go to war against Spain.

You really have shown yourself up throughout this whole discussion as not only being clueless on this subject but quite the anti-democratic ideologue with your repeated insistences of this poll being "illegitimate". Virtually all independence movements in history have been declared illegitimate by larger occupying powers to the point where only violence and war resulted in freedom. How many countries are there in Latin America that acheived independence from Madrid, not through the ballot box but through revolutionary war? Are Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina all "illegitimate"?

I've told you I'm Irish, I can therefore sympathise with Catalans on this matter. We were constantly told no by our own British masters for independence (in reality we were only seeking autonomy within the UK) to the point where a war of independence forced London to accept our demands.

Your insistence that this process is illegal, illegitimate, etc is not only irrelevant but fundamentally anti-democratic. The law you speak of which says this referendum is illegal only exists because Spain backs it up with through force of arms and violence.

Be thankful that Catalonia is seeking independence through peaceful means despite being told "NO" at every moment.

 

[d9b]

Power to the people! ... especially after unnecessary brutality and disgraceful behaviour by the Madrid backed police forces.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You really have shown yourself up throughout this whole discussion as not only being clueless on this subject but quite the anti-democratic ideologue with your repeated insistences of this poll being "illegitimate". Virtually all independence movements in history have been declared illegitimate by larger occupying powers to the point where only violence and war resulted in freedom. How many countries are there in Latin America that acheived independence from Madrid, not through the ballot box but through revolutionary war? Are Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina all "illegitimate"?

I don't know if you can compare colonies to Catalonia. The situations are totally different, from how the two joined to how the situation is now.

I've told you I'm Irish, I can therefore sympathise with Catalans on this matter. We were constantly told no by our own British masters for independence (in reality we were only seeking autonomy within the UK) to the point where a war of independence forced London to accept our demands.

I'm Dutch. Took us 80 years of war to get rid of the Spanish. But you can't just translate those events to the current day.

Your insistence that this process is illegal, illegitimate, etc is not only irrelevant but fundamentally anti-democratic. The law you speak of which says this referendum is illegal only exists because Spain backs it up with through force of arms and violence.

Be thankful that Catalonia is seeking independence through peaceful means despite being told "NO" at every moment.

You speak a lot about "anti-democratic" as if democracy is this magical thing where everyone is allowed to vote on everything. Democracy has always had limits. And in this case, the referendum clearly does not give us a definitive answer whether the people of Catalonia want independence or not.

Laws are always backed by violence. How else are you going to enforce them? The actions by the Spanish police were not proportional and should be condemned, but if Catalonia splits off this week, what exactly do you expect Spain to do?

 

[duckroll]

Seriously, they didn't send police to beat voters, they only wanted to confiscate the ballot boxes and close the schools but voters didn't let them and the shit happened.

I'm totally agree that the force was excessive, but reading some of you, it looks like the police were there to beat people because they were voting. That's false.

I mean, phrase it however you want, but when you send riot police into public space to confiscate ballot boxes and close schools used as polling venues, what do you expect to happen? We can argue semantics, but it isn't interesting. Anyone with a shred of logic would be able to see that there's only one outcome when you try to stop the referendum by force.

 

[KingSnake]

You really have shown yourself up throughout this whole discussion as not only being clueless on this subject but quite the anti-democratic ideologue with your repeated insistences of this poll being "illegitimate". Virtually all independence movements in history have been declared illegitimate by larger occupying powers to the point where only violence and war resulted in freedom. How many countries are there in Latin America that acheived independence from Madrid, not through the ballot box but through revolutionary war? Are Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina all "illegitimate"?

I've told you I'm Irish, I can therefore sympathise with Catalans on this matter. We were constantly told no by our own British masters for independence (in reality we were only seeking autonomy within the UK) to the point where a war of independence forced London to accept our demands.

Your insistence that this process is illegal, illegitimate, etc is not only irrelevant but fundamentally anti-democratic. The law you speak of which says this referendum is illegal only exists because Spain backs it up with through force of arms and violence.

Be thankful that Catalonia is seeking independence through peaceful means despite being told "NO" at every moment.

I am discussing those peaceful means while you're insisting on making a parallel between Catalonia and colonies and keep talking about independence wars. Also you keep discussing about last centuries solutions applied into modern world.

 

[clemenx]

My only opinion about yesterday is that Rajoy must be working alongside the separatist. Such stupidity in handling this issue can't be an honest mistake.

 

[Dragner]

UE speaker calls for dialogue between parts and rejects violence while calling illegal the referendum (no shit sherlock).

Well, thats like saying nothing expecting dialogue from Rajoy and Puigdemont is like expenting it from Trump and Kim-Jon.

So yeah nothing will happen and the violence will keep rising.

 

[User123456]

My only opinion about yesterday is that Rajoy must be working alongside the separatist. Such stupidity in handling this issue can't be an honest mistake.

Listen to him speak, deliver speeches... Apply Hanlon's razor liberally.