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[fabricated backlash]

Well, I can't speak for all Catalonians, but I assume that is exactly the issue: in their awareness they have never been Spaniards. Welcome to Europe.

Remeber Yugoslavia? Ask any Croat or Slovenian, Bosinan who was alive when this state existed about their nationality back then. More Examples: Southern Tyrol, The Basques. Bavaria, Nothern Italy...... Europe is still a flick carpet like 300 years ago on a mental level.

Coming from South Tyrol, I know that even some villages would probably want to secede if given the choice. Secession is mostly an utopia fed by 19th century understandings of race and culture. Like listening to the Union for South Tyrol, one would think all of our problems would simply vanish once we become independent.

These people talk a big talk, because that's how they justify their fat political salaries to people that want to be fed nice nostalgic convenient lies.

 

[tzare]

How are the pro-independence people marketing this? If they're doing the same thing as the Brexit guys (namely, lying out their ass), then I can only see this as taking advantage of ignorant people so a small group can increase their personal power and wealth.

No one can see the future. We can see what happened to previous new countries that became independent to see what may happen in the future, and there are reasons for and against too.
Only time will tell. And if we go worse, well it was our desicion after all.

 

[Westbahnhof]

The Scottish independence movement is clearly nationalist in nature. Hell, the leading political party is literally called the Scottish National Party. I'm interested to know why you think this nationalist movement is so vile and stupid.

My feelings for that one are complicated, I guess the way it's handled makes the whole thing much more acceptable to me. I don't think doing it legally would cause as much suffering as what could potentially happen in Spain.
But I'm split and can't really answer that right now.

How are the pro-independence people marketing this? If they're doing the same thing as the Brexit guys (namely, lying out their ass), then I can only see this as taking advantage of ignorant people so a small group can increase their personal power and wealth.

I would like to get some opinions on this from the "leavers" in this thread.
No EU, thus unavoidable problems with tourism, import and export. No army, someone said. No currency I think?
How could this happen without everything breaking down?

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

From an outsider looking in I'm fine with Catalonia independence as long as they stay in the EU and support freedom of movement and all of that. Now if they break away,leave the EU and start applying nationalistic anti-immigration policies now that would be a problem. As an American I want a strong and unified EU and while subdividing existing countries into smaller units is not ideal if they are being repressed in their current government than they should have the power to break away I only hope those that do don't try to isolate themselves from the greater Europe as that won't do anyone any good.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

From an outsider looking in I'm fine with Catalonia independence as long as they stay in the EU and support freedom of movement and all of that. Now if they break away,leave the EU and start applying nationalistic anti-immigration policies now that would be a problem. As an American I want a strong and unified EU and while subdividing existing countries into smaller units is not ideal if they are being repressed in their current government than they should have the power to break away I only hope those that do don't try to isolate themselves from the greater Europe as that won't do anyone any good.

If they secede with the referendum of 1st October, not only they're automatically out of every organization you mentioned, they are not a recognized state by the EU and (Judging by their draft of a basic law) they're not a democracy, and they have their current politicians in control of the judiciary.
The only good news is Catalans would be able to move elsewhere in Spain.

 

[Ac30]

From an outsider looking in I'm fine with Catalonia independence as long as they stay in the EU and support freedom of movement and all of that. Now if they break away,leave the EU and start applying nationalistic anti-immigration policies now that would be a problem. As an American I want a strong and unified EU and while subdividing existing countries into smaller units is not ideal if they are being repressed in their current government than they should have the power to break away I only hope those that do don't try to isolate themselves from the greater Europe as that won't do anyone any good.

I'm pretty sure the EU has already said it would see Catalonia as a third country and Spain would almost certainly block its accession. It was the same deal with Scotland. I'm not even sure what is supposed to happen - they declare unilateral independence, then what? Spain ignores it, the EU ignores it, life goes on? Unless they start building border infrastructure alongside customs posts...

and they have their current politicians in control of the judiciary.

Kaczynski just wet himself

 

[barber]

It's my personal feeling and what i have been experiencing all my life, can't talk for other regions, and has nothing to do with tourism.
That said i am sure other regions may have even worse situations, or others may find this a non issue. But it is how i feel. It is probably not rational. I don't need that anyone agrees with me either. I want to leave Spain
And like me there lots of different reasons for the thousands that want to leave, some more logical than others, but all valid as long as respect the others opinion.

Sorry if it felt agressive, it is just that as an asturian in a foreign country you have to always say you have nearly anything to do with "spanish culture". About the referendum i wouldn't be agains it if it were done in a correct way instead of being pushed to this situation (as in completely devoid of any legitimacy) by two corrupt parties (pp and convergencia) to sore up nationalist voters and maintain their position taking advantage of a feeling of a good % of the catalonian population

 

[Ferr986]

Well, por-independence politics says that 1) they will not be kicked out of the EU no matter what they say now 2) Currency will still be the Euro 3) They want to make an army

 

[Westbahnhof]

Well, por-independence politics says that 1) they will not be kicked out of the EU no matter what they say now 2) Currency will still be the Euro 3) They want to make an army

Oh boy, so all problems are solved then?
...I can't believe they'd actually try to sell that fantasy.

 

[Osla]

Coming from South Tyrol, I know that even some villages would probably want to secede if given the choice. Secession is mostly an utopia fed by 19th century understandings of race and culture. Like listening to the Union for South Tyrol, one would think all of our problems would simply vanish once we become independent.

And a union with the rest of Tyrol? I visited Brixen this summer, it seemed to mesh all right. Of course the ice-cream vendor was an Italian, but he understood my poor German. Is it still a touchy subject? I read a couple of (old) books about the situation.

On topic: creating new countries in this day and age because of centuries-old feelings always seems so anachronistic to me. You would think we'd be above it by now.

 

[tzare]

Sorry if it felt agressive, it is just that as an asturian in a foreign country you havr to always say you have nearly anything to do with "spanish culture". About the referendum i wouldnt be agains it if it were done in a correct way instead of being pushed to thia case by two corrupt parties (pp and convergencia) to sore up nationalist voters and maintain their position taking advantage of a feeling of a good % of the catalonion population

So bable i guess is your language?
It wasn't aggressive, it is just i am tired to explain that it is how we feel, nothing to do with being better or worse. And that alone should be enough. We just want to decide or future, we don't want to go against anyone. At least the majority.
In this conflict there always be people that will abuse or take advantage of , politicians mainly, but it can't be denied that a lot of normal people want to decide their own future, and this needs to have a solution sooner than later. We are peaceful, but temperature is rising and this is not a good thing

 

[barber]

So bable i guess is your language?
It wasn't aggressive, it is just i am tired to explain that it is how we feel, nothing to do with being better or worse. And that alone should be enough. We just want to decide or future, we don't want to go against anyone. At least the majority.
In this conflict there always be people that will abuse or take advantage of , politicians mainly, but it can't be denied that a lot of normal people want to decide their own future, and this needs to have a solution sooner than later. We are peaceful, but temperature is rising and this is not a good thing

Prefer asturian, bable is a name given to us as a despective way, though now it doesnt have those connotations.
And yeah, as i said it is just a pity that this situation happened in the end due to two parties looking for political points.

 

[NingenJanai]

Oh boy, so all problems are solved then?
...I can't believe they'd actually try to sell that fantasy.

The problem is lots of people are believing all the blatant lies pro-independence politicians are telling.

 

[Ac30]

Well, por-independence politics says that 1) they will not be kicked out of the EU no matter what they say now 2) Currency will still be the Euro 3) They want to make an army

New countries can't legally unilaterally adopt the Euro. Montenego gets away with it because it's rather insignificant and even then the commission already previously warned Montenegro about its usage.

 

[tzare]

The problem is lots of people are believing all the blatant lies pro-independence politicians are telling.

And how do we know who is lying?
Just pro Independence? Just asking.

 

[Westbahnhof]

The problem is lots of people are believing all the blatant lies pro-independence politicians are telling.

Ugh, yeah, isn't it always?
But these lies seem so.. Outlandish.
I guess people just always believe what they want to believe.

And how do we know who is lying?
Just pro Independence? Just asking.

Do you believe all current EU members, including spain, would accept this new country(assuming it'd fulfill all requirements to join)?
Do you think you'll have the Euro?
These are like, high density lies.
If the other side also lies, just say it. Give examples.
But denying these obvious things is lying, and pointing at the other side doesn't change that.

 

[deathkiller]

Well, por-independence politics says that 1) they will not be kicked out of the EU no matter what they say now 2) Currency will still be the Euro 3) They want to make an army

Well, not all pro-independence politicians say that, some like to burn EU flags. http://www.lavanguardia.com/politic...-11s-manifestacion-queman-banderas-arran.html

 

[gutter_trash]

also politically, it pits other EU member states in a political quagmire when it comes to accepting or rejecting Catalonia's independence.

it will will have a damaging effect depending in which direction EU member states direct their support toward Catalonia or to Spain.

 

[NingenJanai]

And how do we know who is lying?
Just pro Independence? Just asking.

I doubt the UE would lie since it has no reason to, it just states it's regulations and laws, unlike the pro-independence politics who are comfortable ignoring laws, I assure you the UE will follow it's regulations and laws, and those laws say Catalonia would be kicked instantly from the UE.

 

[Ferr986]

New countries can't legally unilaterally adopt the Euro. Montenego gets away with it because it's rather insignificant and even then the commission already previously warned Montenegro about its usage.

Well, not all pro-independence politicians say that, some like to burn EU flags. http://www.lavanguardia.com/politic...-11s-manifestacion-queman-banderas-arran.html

Just want to point out that I'm just going with what vice president Oriol Junqueras said himself this Sunday (also President Puigdemont in older ocasions), not what is true or false. Everyone can take their conclusions about what is true or false.

 

[His Majesty]

Ugh, yeah, isn't it always?
But these lies seem so.. Outlandish.
I guess people just always believe what they want to believe.

Not really.

Remember that the most important argument of the 'Better Together' campaign was that Scotland should stay in the UK if they wanted to remain a part of the EU. It doesn't get more ridiculous and dishonest than that.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Not really.

Remember that the most important argument of the 'Better Together' campaign was that Scotland should stay in the UK if they wanted to remain a part of the EU. It doesn't get more ridiculous and dishonest than that.

The argument was "if you split, you'll lose the EU". Which was correct at the time, but sure. Some bullshit happened. It was possibly dishonest, though I think this could be debated, as no Brexit was in sight and the argument could have been presented earnestly.

Still, "If we leave we'll stay in the EU, no problem" much more dishonest, as it is a full on lie.

 

[tzare]

I doubt the UE would lie since it has no reason to, it just states it's regulations and laws, unlike the pro-independence politics who are comfortable ignoring laws, I assure you the UE will follow it's regulations and laws, and those laws say Catalonia would be kicked instantly from the UE.

Of course it has reasons. Spain is a member and has been pushing against Catalonia Independence inside the UE and anywhere they could, as own Spanish minister Margallo said.
They have to protect their own members, but if Independence happens why wouldn't they want to keep Catalonia as a member?
That said i don't thing being part of the UE means much lately, and i think we will be fine both if we are in our out. Not all European countries are part of it and must seem to be doing fine.
But what i find tiring is this talk like we, the ones pro Independence, are stupid and only catalán politicians lie. And then we are the ones that do this for some supposed superiority.

 

[Starchasing]

Can any spaniard tell me if the Jordi Pujol case is in any way related to all of this mess?

Jordi Pujol was the leader of the Catalonia nationalism and president of Catalonia for 27 years. He is now standing trial for corruption, fiscal fraud, money laundering and stealing money from the catalonian people.

 

[Ferr986]

The argument was "if you split, you'll lose the EU". Which was correct at the time, but sure. Some bullshit happened. It was possibly dishonest, though I think this could be debated, as no Brexit was in sight and the argument could have been presented earnestly.

Still, "If we leave we'll stay in the EU, no problem" much more dishonest, as it is a full on lie.

Honestly, a lot of pro-independence for what I see (and for what i could talk) don't care. It's a case of "let's get the Independence first, then we'll see what we do".

 

[Westbahnhof]

Of course it has reasons. Spain is a member and has been pushing against Catalonia Independence inside the UE and anywhere they could, as own Spanish minister Margallo said.
They have to protect their own members, but if Independence happens why wouldn't they to keep Catalonia as a member?
That said i don't thing being part of the UE means much lately, and i think we will be fine both if we are in our out. Not all European countries are part of it and must seem to be doing fine.
But what i find tiring is this talk like we, the ones pro Independence, are stupid and only catalán politicians lie. And then we are the ones that do this for some supposed superiority.

Which non-EU country do you think you should aspire to be like?
I can't think of any without some kind of deal with the EU that are doing that well, and any deal would require being recognized as a country.

Honestly, a lot of pro-independence for what I see (and for what i could talk) don't care. It's a case of "let's get the Independence first, then we'll see what we do".

It really feels like it.
"I want" first and foremost, regardless of consequences for themselves.

 

[GeoGonzo]

Casual reminder that we have fairly reliable polls on this issue and its a very close call. I’d say it is silly to to anything rash till people actually make up their minds, since you obviously cant leave, join, leave as soon as 51% agree.

The latest polls I saw answered the question “Do you want Catalonia to become an independent State?” like this:

Yes: 44.3% (prev 44.9)
No: 48.5% (prev 45.1)
Does not know: 5.6% (prev 7.0)
Does not answer: 1.6% (prev 2.9)

 

[NingenJanai]

Of course it has reasons. Spain is a member and has been pushing against Catalonia Independence inside the UE and anywhere they could, as own Spanish minister Margallo said.
They have to protect their own members, but if Independence happens why wouldn't they want to keep Catalonia as a member?
That said i don't thing being part of the UE means much lately, and i think we will be fine both if we are in our out. Not all European countries are part of it and must seem to be doing fine.
But what i find tiring is this talk like we, the ones pro Independence, are stupid and only catalán politicians lie. And then we are the ones that do this for some supposed superiority.

It's not they wouldn't want to keep it, it's they can't because they have laws and regulations that they have to follow as I told you.

 

[tzare]

Can any spaniard tell me if the Jordi Pujol case is in any way related to all of this mess?

Jordi Pujol was the leader of the Catalonia nationalism and president of Catalonia for 27 years. He is now standing trial for corruption, fiscal fraud, money laundering and stealing money from the catalonian people.

Some say this is the reason, and it's former political party CiU, pushed towards Independence because of that.
Sure some politicians may see that as a way to leave their corruption behind, but the reality is that all this corruption started to appear when CiU started to pursue Independence, not before.

 

[The Hermit]

First i start to work in London-> Brexit happens
I started to work in Barcelona 1 1/2 months ago -> Catalonia independence

Starting to think it’s my fault

Come to São Paulo

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

If they secede with the referendum of 1st October, not only they're automatically out of every organization you mentioned, they are not a recognized state by the EU and (Judging by their draft of a basic law) they're not a democracy, and they have their current politicians in control of the judiciary.
The only good news is Catalans would be able to move elsewhere in Spain.

if that is the case than I would not be able to support a Catalonia independence as it would seem like it would just cause needless instability in Europe.

 

[tzare]

It's not they wouldn't want to keep it, it's they can't because they have laws and regulations that they have to follow as I told you.

Well, i am sure that if the situation is good for both, the UE and Catalonia, a way will be found. That is why politics exist. If laws were static why would we need politicians?

And personally would like to see what happens without being a UE member. And also think after brexit, Greece, UE needs as many in as possible.
But that is my limited view as a pro Independence so take it with care: P

 

[intheinbetween]

Which non-EU country do you think you should aspire to be like?
I can't think of any without some kind of deal with the EU that are doing that well, and any deal would require being recognized as a country.

As a spaniard I can tell you what I've heard and read from catalonians: they aspire, or dream, to be some kind of Switzerland, some of the pro-independence supporters claim they can be South Denmark. I've read and heard lots of crazy tales about their future you wouldn't believe

 

[Ac30]

Casual reminder that we have fairly reliable polls on this issue and its a very close call. I’d say it is silly to to anything rash till people actually make up their minds, since you obviously cant leave, join, leave as soon as 51% agree.

The latest polls I saw answered the question “Do you want Catalonia to become an independent State?” like this:

Yes: 44.3% (prev 44.9)
No: 48.5% (prev 45.1)
Does not know: 5.6% (prev 7.0)
Does not answer: 1.6% (prev 2.9)

I'm shocked No is in the lead right now after Spain's rash handling of the referendum. Seizing ballots and the like plays right into the secessionists' hands.

Honestly, a lot of pro-independence for what I see (and for what i could talk) don't care. It's a case of "let's get the Independence first, then we'll see what we do".

I'm getting flashbacks to Brexit

 

[tzare]

As a spaniard I can tell you what I've heard and read from catalonians: they aspire, or dream, to be some kind of Switzerland, some of the pro-independence supporters claim they can be South Denmark. I've read and heard lots of crazy tales about their future you wouldn't believe

Just like the doom and gloom tales from the 'better together' crowd.
Yet i see other countries that were previously part of a bigger one just fine.

Of course, we can dream of becoming a better place to live in. That is the reason why we want Independence after all.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Just like the doom and gloom tales from the 'better together' crowd.
Yet i see other countries that were previously part of a bigger one just fine.

Of course, we can dream of becoming a better place to live in. That is the reason why we want Independence after all.

Which country just said "bye" to everything it used to be a part of and everything was fine?

 

[Ferr986]

As a spaniard I can tell you what I've heard and read from catalonians: they aspire, or dream, to be some kind of Switzerland, some of the pro-independence supporters claim they can be South Denmark. I've read and heard lots of crazy tales about their future you wouldn't believe

I mean, it's fair to think it's the case considering they push for their own republic. There's a lot of passion here and it's sadden me that both political sides are playing with it. (for all the shit I can say about the current Catalonian gov, the Spanish gov caused a lot of this first when they rejected the Estatut. Now they wish they have acepted it. I mean , the fuckers at PP wanted a referendum to block the Estatut lol).

 

[Starchasing]

Some say this is the reason, and it's former political party CiU, pushed towards Independence because of that.
Sure some politicians may see that as a way to leave their corruption behind, but the reality is that all this corruption started to appear when CiU started to pursue Independence, not before.

Then the dates indicate that they knew they were going to get caught and decided to divert the public attention.

Tzare i admire your insightful post regarding gaming, but in this case i must say that i think you are being played.

Polititians are playing with your FEELINGS.

This is all a ploy that they know leads nowhere, so the people of catalonia can forget about Jordi Pujol.

What do you think of Jordi Pujol?

 

[intheinbetween]

Well, i am sure that if the situation is good for both, the UE and Catalonia, a way will be found. That is why politics exist. If laws were static why would we need politicians?

And personally would like to see what happens without being a UE member. And also think after brexit, Greece, UE needs as many in as possible.
But that is my limited view as a pro Independence so take it with care: P

Face the facts, afaik if somehow you declare independance on your own, first Spain should recognize your departure in order to reclaim the status of nation/country for other countries. That seems far from possible, but even if Spain did, you should have to apply to join the UE, that means it could take years in order to review your application, even if you get that far things would become even more difficult as Spain would veto your application, but I'm afraid Spain wouldn't be the only one doing this as I don't think France, Germany or Italy want this nationalism fever to spread to them

 

[intheinbetween]

Just like the doom and gloom tales from the 'better together' crowd.
Yet i see other countries that were previously part of a bigger one just fine.

Of course, we can dream of becoming a better place to live in. That is the reason why we want Independence after all.

WTF, is Catalonia a bad place to live in? I can't believe this type of comments when you have lots of spanish CAs in much much worse conditions. Catalonia is one of the better places to live in Spain, one of the richer CAs, so don't make it sound like you are being oppressed or living in a bad situation because of the govt

 

[tzare]

Then the dates indicate that they knew they were going to get caught and decided to divert the public attention.

Tzare i admire your insightful post regarding gaming, but in this case i must say that i think you are being played.

Polititians are playing with your FEELINGS.

This is all a ploy that they know leads nowhere, so the people of catalonia can forget about Jordi Pujol.

What do you think of Jordi Pujol?

I think everything points to the contrary, but i personally do not care. I am 45 and been pro Independence forever. In fact i never thought we could reach being so close to 50% of the population wanting to leave.
Maybe the youngest or previous CiU supporters have been fooled.
I have been voting ERC forever. In fact i am not very trustful for my gaming posts, i am quite pro Sony , but i try to be honest since this is an important thing for me.
Pujol is just another corrupt, just like many others unfortunately, despite i think It has been more a thing of his wife and sons.
It is irrelevant for me since the are corrupts in both sides of the fence. It is not an important thing in my opinion.

. WTF, is Catalonia a bad place to live in? I can't believe this type of comments when you have lots of spanish CAs in much much worse conditions. Catalonia is one of the better places to live in Spain, one of the richer CAs, so don't make it sound like you are being oppressed or living in a bad situation because of the govt

Did i say it was a bad place to live in?
No, but i want it to be better. It has nothing to do with other regions being in better or worse situation.
And i said before, language is probably MY main reason, but that is another discussion, it doesn't matter if i am right or wrong. It is my opinion and is as valid as yours.
And what we want is to vote to see which opinion is majoritary.
Btw on mobile so a bit difficult to answer everything, hard to deal with Gboard and 3 languages :/

 

[gutter_trash]

Face the facts, afaik if somehow you declare independance on your own, first Spain should recognize your departure in order to reclaim the status of nation/country for other countries. That seems far from possible, but even if Spain did, you should have to apply to join the UE, that means it could take years in order to review your application, even if you get that far things would become even more difficult as Spain would veto your application, but I'm afraid Spain wouldn't be the only one doing this as I don't think France, Germany or Italy want this nationalism fever to spread to them

and also would any country that worked for decades developing friendship with Spain decided to weigh their options in accepting Catalonia as a new state at the expense of straining relations with Spain that took decades or a century to establish?

take Portugal for example. 800 years of rivalry and competition but have been Best Friends for the last 70 years. The longest peace time between the two countries with big economic and trade relations.

in the present context, what would Portugal do? Moral High Ground and recognize Catalonia? or stay Best Friends with Spain and not recognize Catalonia?

 

[Starchasing]

I think everything points to the contrary, but i personally do not care. I am 45 and been pro Independence forever. In fact i never thought we could reach being so close to 50% of the population wanting to leave.
Maybe the youngest or previous CiU supporters have been fooled.
I have been voting ERC forever. In fact i am not very trustful for my gaming posts, i am quite pro Sony , but i try to be honest since this is an important thing for me.
Pujol is just another corrupt, just like many others unfortunately, despite i think It has been more a thing of his wife and sons.
It is irrelevant for me since the are corrupts in both sides of the fence. It is not an important thing in my opinion.


Did i say it was a bad place to live in?
No, but i want it to be better. It has nothing to do with other regions being in better or worse situation.
And i said before, language is probably MY main reason, but that is another discussion, it doesn't matter if i am right or wrong. It is my opinion and is as valid as yours.
And what we want is to vote to see which opinion is majoritary.
Btw on mobile so a bit difficult to answer everything, hard to deal with Gboard and 3 languages :/

I can understand all your reasonings, but as i said before it looks like your oen polititians dont have your peoples interest in mind.

Here are the Venice comission guidelines of good practises for referendums. If you read them you will find that the Catalonia referendum is a botched job

http://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=cdl-ad(2007)008-e

think who benefits fron this butched job and you will find why its been done

 

[fabricated backlash]

And a union with the rest of Tyrol? I visited Brixen this summer, it seemed to mesh all right. Of course the ice-cream vendor was an Italian, but he understood my poor German. Is it still a touchy subject? I read a couple of (old) books about the situation.

On topic: creating new countries in this day and age because of centuries-old feelings always seems so anachronistic to me. You would think we'd be above it by now.

Union with Norther Tyrol would be a desaster. We would lose our school system, which thanks to autonomy is one of the best in Europe. We would lose our energy monopoly etc etc. Also politicians would have to take a pay from Vienna which would be massively lower than the one they currently get from Rome.

Besides, with Austrias track record on protecting minorities and second or third languages, I fear for the Italian speaking populace of South Tyrol which is about 50/50 to begin with.

Re-joining Austria made sense up until the 60s and 70s, when Italy was doing their best to fuck the german speaking population over by torturing and killing activists, creating further settlements like the fascists used to, and tried to quell any unrest wih military force. Since the autonomy statutes have actually been enforced and enhanced and expanded upon, Austria itself, outside of the obvious Neo Nazi parties like the FPÖ has no interest in us secceding.

If anything South Tyrol is neither Austrian nor Italian exclusively. It's become a mix of both really, and that not only shows in the use of language, but mostly in our cuisine and music scene (not that there is much outside of the Kastelruther Spatzen, Graveworm, and Onkelz wannabes Freiwild)

 

[DarthMasta]

I'm Portuguese, so really, Spain maintaining it's current shape or losing some bits isn't very high on the list of stuff I worry about, but if you think any region in the EU can unilaterally declare independence and remain a member of the EU / have normal relations with the rest of the EU, yeah, it won't happen, at the very least because no EU country wants to encourage that sort of thing, not with the amount of potential independence movements almost every EU country has.

If Spain recognizes the move or if international opinion comes to be that Spain is a bad guy screwing over Catalonia, okay, but I don't see how you can move the needle on democratic, free, open, friendly Spain as bad guy.

But hey, whatever happens I hope it doesn't come to violence...

 

[Markoman]

Hm, I just came to realize that here in Germany we kinda avoid using "Germany" + "nation" in one sentence. Maybe for obvious reasons, but then on the other hand we don't say (US) Americans + nation/nationalists either. When it comes to America "patriot/patriotism" is the word you'll more likely hear. Kind of funny that we often refer to nationalism when we talk about smaller regions, although it fits the definition perfectly. I guess the confusion started with the grand nation France.

 

[llien]

I'm shocked No is in the lead right now after Spain's rash handling of the referendum. Seizing ballots and the like plays right into the secessionists' hands.



I'm getting flashbacks to Brexit

I think crucial changes like that should need more than merely over 50%.
Just like you can't change constitution (in most countries that have it ) with mere majority.

 

[cantona222]

Will FC Barcelona play in La Liga then?

 

[Crow Pudding]

Whenever I turn on the Spanish news TV channel I get here, it's either about corruption, unemployment, or Catalonia referendum.

Very much our day to day for the last 5 years.

 

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Coming from South Tyrol, I know that even some villages would probably want to secede if given the choice.

no one wants to accept that I was born in Italy since South Tyrol isn't really a part of the country, apparently. On the other hand, I count as Italian when I apply for the US visa lottery ignoring my actual citizenship, so hey let's go with that