• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Cenk Uygur and Sanders Campaign Advisor Launch the "Justice Democrats"

Status
Not open for further replies.
This holds little weight when the republicans have historic control over the country. There is no reason to be upset that a democrat might have a primary opponent.

As long as they dont run a third party candidate there is nothing to get riled up about.

Do you know anything about purity tests or are you just posting for the sake of posting?


Most of the purity test attacks do not occur in primaries, they occur in states with sparsely attended caucuses or state conventions where the candidates are chosen. Thus a small minority of raging extremist morons subvert the will of the party to get extremists on the ballot. I watched this happen in my home state several times on the GOP side over the last couple decades,
 
Well we all rallied behind the moderates this time around and look how that turned out.

If a candidate is in a safe seat and they cave to Trump then they have a problem and they need to fix it. The GOP is not our friend and people need to stop acting like working with them isn't a big deal.

Oh wow, the moderate lost in ONE election.

Meanwhile how many of the more progressive candidates on downtick races did WORSE than Hillary?
 
Well we all rallied behind the moderates this time around and look how that turned out.

If a candidate is in a safe seat and they cave to Trump then they have a problem and they need to fix it. The GOP is not our friend and people need to stop acting like working with them isn't a big deal.

You have less than 0 evidence to support the concept that supporting moderates caused this mess. You just say it because it fits your world view.

In 2008 there was heavy support for moderates, including Obama, and the dems dominated.


There is NO historical trend supporting the idea that moderate candidates hurt a party overall.
 
Nobody does. But when your Republican opponent has no compunctions at throwing money around then what are you going to do? You certainly can campaign for it, but you *must* use the weapons at your disposal.

Part of the reason the DNC is so toothless is because they have no money.

So how are people gonna trust them if they are beholden to big money?
We should be using a populist left argument in these times.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Can't wait for Justice Democrats go after this moderate senator
VVhkEJn.png

Except being anti-TPP is probably the only good thing about Trump. Not to mention Hillary Clinton was also in favor of throwing it out.
 

celljean89

Neo Member
Helping your community? I'm talking about politics. What campaigns have you volunteered for?

And my whole point is that yes, we should run New Blood for POTUS, but state and local level is a much different ballgame.


I volunteered for Ras Baraka (currently the Mayor of Newark) and Joseph Callum.

I think all levels should get the chance of having new blood, unless it's going to a tough race. Then you stick to what you know, and I agree on new blood POTUS.
 
I didn't say that. It helps to read posts a little more carefully.

everything is far left, b. Unless it is alt-right. Get with the prog.

i mean, economics is literally a field of social sciences ffs

Can't wait for Justice Democrats go after this moderate senator

While i do understand that, in your view, this is evidence of hypocrisy, in their view this is evidence that they're not doing purity tests and can, indeed, compromise and give bipartisan support if needed.
Meet them halfway, eh?
 

Nafai1123

Banned
So how are people trust them if they are beholden to big money?
We should be using a populist left argument in these times.

By accepting the fact that money contributed to a campaign does not require being beholden to them? Hold candidates to task on their policies and voting record. If it turns out they are corporate shills vote them out next cycle.

What we should not be doing is immediately jumping to the conclusion that money=bad. You can't bring a knife to a gun fight and expect to win, even if you oppose the use of guns.
 
The party deserves to die. If you want it to survive for some reason, you should be lining up behind Cenk. He's the last stop before Socialists (like me) bring more radical solutions.

Oh look who's Joined. It's the Jill Stein voter that constantly defends Wikileaks......

You scum are more interested in attacking Democrats than actually opposing Trump.

Supporting one democrat over the other in a primary is killing the party?

No, but focusing more on attacking Democrats than on actually opposing Trump is.
 

Kthulhu

Member
You have less than 0 evidence to support the concept that supporting moderates caused this mess. You just say it because it fits your world view.

In 2008 there was heavy support for moderates, including Obama, and the dems dominated.


There is NO historical trend supporting the idea that moderate candidates hurt a party overall.

Obama was the more liberal candidate in 08.

Hillary's campaign was textbook moderate DNC. Didn't piss off the opposition, out of touch ads, out of touch speeches, small rallies, cocky attitude, ECT.

Three major states were ignored and she failed to shake off the perception of untrustworthyness surrounding her. The DNC had every advantage and flushed it all down the toilet.

Trump wasn't a genius candidate. The DNC is just stupid.
 
>republicans go crazy after 08
>form new party in the party
>sweep 2010
>keep obstructing and winning 2012
>keep obstructing and winning 2014
>sweep 2016 and have full control of the government and dems have fewer seats in all of the government (local state and federal) than in the last 10 years or more

>democrats this is fine.jpg
 

Kthulhu

Member
"The GOP is not our friend and people need to stop acting like working with them isn't a big deal."

Expect assuming the Dems got their way they would've done something similar. I am referring to issues where they are opposed, such as voting for fucking Carson for HUD.
 
You scum are more interested in attacking Democrats than actually opposing Trump.

Like.
Dude.
Seriously.
Introspection time:

If anyone that was politically closer to you than to the other guys called you scum, how likely would you be to look sympathetically to their views? And how likely would you be to sit at home and ignore the fuck outta them when called to help?
This is a rhetorical question of course.

do try not emulate behavior that you (most likely) abhor. Please?
 
Like.
Dude.
Seriously.
Introspection time:

If anyone that was politically closer to you than to the other guys called you scum, how likely would you be to look sympathetically to their views? And how likely would you be to sit at home and ignore the fuck outta them when called to help?
This is a rhetorical question of course.

do try not emulate behavior that you (most likely) abhor. Please?

That poster I responded to has a HISTORY of desperately defending wikileaks just because he cares more about attacking Democrats than actually opposing far right fascism.

When I call someone scum I have justification for it. Caring more about trying to turn the Democratic Party into Jeremy Corbyn type bullshit than actually opposing Trump is SCUM behavior.

So they won't win then and you have nothing to worry about!!!! :D

And what will their response be when they lose the primaries? Oh right we know how they will respond based on how they responded to Bernie losing the primaries: They continued focusing more on attacking Democrats than on actually opposing conservatives.

She backed down from that hard.

Actually she only backed down from the part where she said "half".
 
I wouldnt even care about corporate democrats being conservative as fuck on certain economic issues if they won, but they dont. The democrats got curb stomped at every level. I dont think challenging them in a primary is the end of the world.

Now if they even think about running as a third party or endorsing a republican then they can go fuck themselves.
 
I wouldnt even care about corporate democrats being conservative as fuck on certain economic issues if they won, but they dont. The democrats got curb stomped at every level. I dont think challenging them in a primary is the end of the world.

Now if they even think about running as a third party or endorsing a republican then they can go fuck themselves.

I guess this is about where I stand - that I don't really give much of a shit about primary challenges when they already aren't winning, but either way I do give a shit when they Lieberman the shit out of everything.

Like, primaries for the swing seats we barely lost last year? Fine by me. Primarying a safe Senator? Also fine, ultimately.

Primarying, for example, Sherrod Brown because he didn't vote your way one time? I will actually crawl through the Internet to fight you.
 
They won't win and then we'll have to deal with their supporters demonizing the winning candidate for accepting money which could cost us the seat.

What's the value of winning a seat, if the polices enacted in that seat are against the interests of regular working people? What's the value of winning if working people actually lose ground as a result of your supposed win?
 

Makonero

Member
I wouldnt even care about corporate democrats being conservative as fuck on certain economic issues if they won, but they dont. The democrats got curb stomped at every level. I dont think challenging them in a primary is the end of the world.

Now if they even think about running as a third party or endorsing a republican then they can go fuck themselves.

Yep. I won't advocate for vote splitting. But removing the moneyed interests and getting in new blood will do wonders. People want outsiders. Now is the time for a change-up.
 

Nafai1123

Banned
Build a real working class party from the grassroots up, which rejects corporate funding, and is held accountable to social movements. Replicate the example of Kshama Sawant in cities across the country:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvnPU7tRrkw

Some of our other members on TV:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rnny2C1RFHk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKN3xraVa14

Yes form a new party to split the progressive vote so they never win any substantial seat. Great idea.

What's the value of winning a seat, if the polices enacted in that seat are against the interests of regular working people? What's the value of winning if working people actually lose ground as a result of your supposed win?

Unlike you I understand that accepting campaign money does not make someone beholden to those who contributed. Judge them based on policies and voting record, not perceived slights against the working class for accepting campaign funding.
 

guek

Banned
Oh, TestOfTide ate a ban, probably for the scum comment.

I was contemplating asking him to chill out a bit, now I kinda regret not doing so. In his HONOR, I'll just throw in some CAPS around my post so it seems like I'm SHOUTING EVERYTHING
 

tbm24

Member
Supporting one democrat over the other in a primary is killing the party?

You see this reaction because of how Cenk and his ilk operate. It won't simply be propping up a contender they like, it will be throwing mud against the incumbent they do not like for the duration of the election. That is not a positive outcome. I'll assume otherwise when Justice Democrats clarify they will support the eventual winner of the primary for the sake of the party.
 
When I call someone scum I have justification for it. Caring more about trying to turn the Democratic Party into Jeremy Corbyn type bullshit than actually opposing Trump is SCUM behavior.

You do realize that, through your posts, you're showing that you're more concerned about attacking democrats that might build whatever strawman you say they wanna build, than you are with attacking the real danger, yes?

You're legit opting to fight the possible eventual enemy from within instead of attacking the government. That's... quixotic, in a way.
 
Yes form a new party to split the progressive vote so they never win any substantial seat. Great idea.

Also, rather than participating in the Democratic primary process so that this "grassroots movement" does not eventually split the vote, let's do this during an election cycle where the GOP has a legitimate shot at being able to pass Constitutional amendments afterward (thus rendering literally the entire next generation's political activism moot).

e: Stressing that I'm only talking about this at the federal level - we can go hog wild with this in city elections.
 
You see this reaction because of how Cenk and his ilk operate. It won't simply be propping up a contender they like, it will be throwing mud against the incumbent they do not like for the duration of the election. That is not a positive outcome. I'll assume otherwise when Justice Democrats clarify they will support the eventual winner of the primary for the sake of the party.

Yeah, there's definitely a context here that a lot of people are skipping over.
 

Tarydax

Banned
You see this reaction because of how Cenk and his ilk operate. It won't simply be propping up a contender they like, it will be throwing mud against the incumbent they do not like for the duration of the election. That is not a positive outcome. I'll assume otherwise when Justice Democrats clarify they will support the eventual winner of the primary for the sake of the party.

Totally. If there was someone else running this, I would be a lot more open to the idea. But Cenk and some guys from Bernie's lousy primary campaign? No fucking thanks.
 

guek

Banned
They won't win and then we'll have to deal with their supporters demonizing the winning candidate for accepting money which could cost us the seat.

Without backing from a major politician like Bernie though, I doubt they'll gain that much traction. They're trying to form a leftist Tea Party but being hyper-progressive is a much harder pitch to the general populace compared to fear and racism.
 
Yes form a new party to split the progressive vote so they never win any substantial seat. Great idea.

The kinds of seats that are realistically winnable right now are in cities. Cities are generally one-party states run by the Democratic party. There's no threat of splitting the vote with Republicans by challenging the Democrats for city council, most mayoral races, and even quite a lot of state congress seats. In fact, an absurd number of seats are run totally unopposed:

https://www.thenation.com/article/alaskas-lesson-left/#

Furthermore, many cities have "minority seat" provisions where a city council containing 10 Democrats, often set aside a couple seats for minority parties. If there's no challenge, these seats will go to republicans. So there are a lot of possibilities for alternative parties to take some meaningful power. The logic of "first past the post" is true at the presidential level, but decreases in severity the lower you go.

All this being said, I oppose the Democratic party. The success of their policy preferences is the failure of mine. The success of corporate charter schools for example is the failure of a strong universal right to a good public education. So I absolutely reserve the moral right to challenge them electorally.


Unlike you I understand that accepting campaign money does not make someone beholden to those who contributed. Judge them based on policies and voting record, not perceived slights against the working class for accepting campaign funding.

I'm not going to strawman you here, but virtually no liberal Democrat holds this position when it comes to Republicans. Do you think the GOP stance of climate change denial has any substantive basis other than intense funding from the fossil fuel industry? If not, then why do you think Democrats are immune to this influence?

There's actually good academic work that completely disputes your "understanding":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment_theory_of_party_competition
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
They won't win and then we'll have to deal with their supporters demonizing the winning candidate for accepting money which could cost us the seat.

So you think not talking about this problem will trick progressives and young people into voting for bought Democrats?

How's the democratic party doing currently?
The worst ever basically? Yes. Let's keep doing that.
 
So you think not talking about this problem will trick progressives and young people into voting for bought Democrats?

How's the democratic party doing currently?
The worst ever basically? Yes. Let's keep doing that.

If only this wasn't a binary choice and there were more seats available besides the ones that already have democrats in them. Alas.
 
Ultimately, i can get behind this if this don't alienate our more moderate Democrats and cede them to the Republicans.

Man, I don't like Tulsi Gabbard....but looking at her facebook page, a lot of Republicans and leftist democrats seem to warm to her. Is she someone the type we need?

Personally, I wish we get more Elizabeth Warren types (not necessarily in left ideology but in terms of intellect), and less like Bernie or Gabbard. But then again, that's just me. I just want to be sure whatever we do leads to Democrat gains and don't cede any more ground to Republicans.

I am very skeptical about Cenk having anything to do with this too.
 
I posted earlier but some more complete thoughts: There's nothing wrong with primarying bad Democrats, but only if primarying said bad Democrat would likely result in a win. For example, as a Missourian I don't want Claire McCaskill getting primaried by some "better" liberal and then have them lose. A Democrat that works for policies I agree with 50% of the time is far better than any Republican.

I'm also of the opinion that Democrats will have better electoral success purely on the fact that there is no longer an Obama/Clinton boogeyman to motivate the GOP voters (not even including if Trump is as bad as we all expect). They have all the power but are far more vulnerable than they would be had Clinton won (unfortunately). I'm sure they realize this too which is why worthless fucks like Chaffetz are posting stuff on FB like "We're totally still investigating Clinton guys!" because they need a scapegoat to distract from their terrible policies.
 

legacyzero

Banned
One step forward, two steps back.

People act like all corporate donations are bad. What is bad is the non disclosure of the donations.

Any donation that can be percieved as not in the best interest of the people, is not a good idea.

Example: Goldman Sachs -> Hillary and the 2008 Market crash. That's suspect as fuck.

Or $300,000 in pharmaceutical donations to Cory Booker, and then a subsequent vote against Bernie's bill pushing for cheaper medications. SUSPECT AS FUCK. There's literally no excuse for it. And his lame ass defense was incorrect, and even more suspect. As if Canada isn't more strict on medication regulation than we are.

This is why we need to get lobbying out of politics and there needs to be better accountability. Otherwise, why would corporate donates give a fuck, if they didn't think the candidates would do favors.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom