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[TheLaughingStock]

Disparaging her entire career and pretending she's only where she is because she's a woman... how fucking droll.

Any man with her career and resume would be adored.

I didn't disparage her entire career. My point was there are deal breakers in regards to her poor judgement, associations, and dishonesty over the course of her career that renders her as unqualified. I think that's overlooked because of the history that could be made as the first female POTUS. She'll probably be bad news like Carly Fiorina as a CEO and make critical errors if elected. In any event, I don't think it's necessary to bring up her emails at all. When Clinton and her surrogates say things like Mark Zandi was an advisor/chief economist for John McCain, you know you're dealing with a person who intentionally aims to be untrustworthy.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I didn't disparage her entire career. My point was there are deal breakers in regards to her poor judgement, associations, and dishonesty over the course of her career that renders her as unqualified. I think that's overlooked because of the history that could be made as the first female POTUS. She'll probably be bad news like Carly Fiorina as a CEO and make critical errors if elected. In any event, I don't think it's necessary to bring up her emails at all. When Clinton and her surrogates say things like Mark Zandi was an advisor/chief economist for John McCain, you know you're dealing with a person who intentionally aims to be untrustworthy.

So you're arguing she's getting a free pass because of her womanhood.

Spectacular.

A man with her background and work ethic would probably have actually already been President already.


As for Zandi: Obama, Sanders and Clinton have used that line... literally all of em soooo not like she's unique there.

Democrats exagerate but he did work for the McCain campaign on some capacity.

 

[MIMIC]

Everything you do is transparent and disingenuous....

Like 3 or 4 Clinton supporters did something they were all repudiated and removed (and no one threatened to sue the DNC either!)

But here you are going CLINTON's supporters as if you've hit a gold mine to justify you're nonsense.

You had to quote mine a story absolving Clinton of everything you're now accusing her of.

You found like what 4 racist Democrats. Congratulations I'm sure there are many more even, racism isn't solely and exclusively to the right they're just the ones who marinate in it and trade on it.


Edit: Any by 3 or 4 I mean 2. So even less. This isn't a smoking gun. Fuck it's not even a gun.

1. I'm talking about the birther garbage. This is separate from the Muslim thing (Hillary people stay busy). Hillary supporters spread that crap, just because they were pissed that someone dared to run against -- and do better than -- Queen Hillary.

2. As for the Muslim thing: 2 members, 1 member, I don't care. I didn't throw out any numbers (which Hillary quickly learned is a pretty stupid thing to do). I said the Hillary campaign.

3. I don't know whether you mistyped but I didn't accuse Hillary herself of anything, so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't repeat this claim.

4. And yes, I did go "CLINTON SUPPORTERS." Is that a problem?

5. And yes, we found a handful of racist Democrats. And look where we are: it has evolved into a completely racist smear campaign, thanks to these racist people working for Clinton. Great job, now that the tactics are in more capable hands (Trump and HIS supporters). But I guess I can't blame them: they only wanted Hillary to win, and that's all that matters, right? The consequences are just minor inconveniences.

 

[Lord Frieza]

1. I'm talking about the birther garbage. This is separate from the Muslim thing (Hillary people stay busy). Hillary supporters spread that crap, just because they were pissed that someone dared to run against -- and do better than -- Queen Hillary.

2. As for the Muslim thing: 2 members, 1 member, I don't care. I didn't throw out any numbers (which Hillary quickly learned is a pretty stupid thing to do). I said the Hillary campaign.

3. I don't know whether you mistyped but I didn't accuse Hillary herself of anything, so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't repeat this claim.

4. And yes, I did go "CLINTON SUPPORTERS." Is that a problem?

5. And yes, we found a handful of racist Democrats. And look where we are: it has evolved into a completely racist smear campaign, thanks to these racist people working for Clinton. Great job, now that the tactics are in more capable hands (Trump and HIS supporters). But I guess I can't blame them: they only wanted Hillary to win, and that's all that matters, right? The consequences are just minor inconveniences.

There has been no evidence that Clinton, the Clinton campaign, or their supporters began the birther movement.

 

[excelsiorlef]

1. I'm talking about the birther garbage. This is separate from the Muslim thing (Hillary people stay busy). Hillary supporters spread that crap, just because they were pissed that someone dared to run against -- and do better than -- Queen Hillary.

2. As for the Muslim thing: 2 members, 1 member, I don't care. I didn't throw out any numbers (which Hillary quickly learned is a pretty stupid thing to do). I said the Hillary campaign.

3. I don't know whether you mistyped but I didn't accuse Hillary herself of anything, so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't repeat this claim.

4. And yes, I did go "CLINTON SUPPORTERS." Is that a problem?

5. And yes, we found a handful of racist Democrats. And look where we are: it has evolved into a completely racist smear campaign, thanks to these racist people working for Clinton. Great job, now that the tactics are in more capable hands (Trump and HIS supporters). But I guess I can't blame them: they only wanted Hillary to win, and that's all that matters, right? The consequences are just minor inconveniences.

1) You combined the two by talking about the Clinton campaign. The only story with even the slightest ties to Clinton's actual 08 campaign was the muslim story and those ties are infinitesimal


2) Lol @ I don't throw around numbers. We don't have to guestimate here, we actually have the concrete numbers: 2. You just saying the Clinton campaign actually obfuscates the situation because it makes it sound far more prevalent than literally 2 volunteers.


You tried to tie it to Clinton right here

3)

I was considering it. I had no idea that Clinton supporters (or even people in her campaign) were tied to spreading those lies. I was led to believe that it was all Trump and right-wingers.

And yet

There is no record that Clinton herself or anyone within her campaign ever advanced the charge that Obama was not born in the United States. A review by our fellow fact-checkers at Factcheck.org reported that no journalist who investigated this ever found a connection to anyone in the Clinton organization.

Clinton, herself, answered this very accusation after Trump's tweet during an interview with CNN’s Don Lemon. Lemon asked Clinton if she started smear campaigns that Obama was born outside the United States.

"That is – no. That is so ludicrous, Don. You know, honestly, I just believe that, first of all, it’s totally untrue, and secondly, you know, the president and I have never had any kind of confrontation like that," Clinton said. "You know, I have been blamed for nearly everything, that was a new one to me."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ump/hillary-clinton-obama-birther-fact-check/

4) Putting Clinton in big caps was just hilarious is all. As if the actions of literally a handful of people somehow really truly represented Clinton and her supporters so much that you had to all caps her name for emphasis

5) Those racist supporters were pieces of shit and Clinton and her campaign denounced them immediately. No one is making excuses for them like at all.

As for:

these racist people working for Clinton.

I say again

But none of those stories suggests any link between the Clinton campaign, let alone Clinton herself, and the advocacy of theories questioning Obama’s birth in Hawaii.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/was-hillary-clinton-the-original-birther/

No one working for Clinton had any involvment in birthirism.

The exact number from both stories combined who actually any ties to the 08 Clinton campaign is 2. Both of them on the muslim story, both local volunteers, both immediately repudiated and dismissed and removed from the campaign because they were racists.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

This is a problematic attitude that simultaneously fails to recognize reality (yes they are part of America too) and denies a fundamental belief in redemption and the ability of people to change for the better. Categorizing people as irredeemable, or reducing them to their worst elements, is itself a cancer.

but where was the lie?

I actively look at everyone with a Trump bumper sticker differently. I assume at this point that they are racists and/or bigots. Every single one of them. Republicans who vote for him can't simply ignore his comments anymore. You don't get that free pass. Signing up for Trump is signing up for everything he's said and claims to stand for. All of it.

 

[EmpressInYellow]

This idea that Clinton being supported by Wolfowitz et al means she's actually a SUPER NEOCON is ridiculous.

You know why they're supporting Clinton? It isn't because they like her - many of them really, really don't.

It's because Trump has talked about nuking Europe. It's because he has no grasp whatsoever of even the broadest concepts of foreign policy and diplomacy. He is a historically ignorant candidate potentially being given the keys to the kingdom, and for people whose primary interest is foreign policy, that's terrifying.

Their support is not a sign that Clinton agrees with them. It is simply a sign that a nuclear-capable Trump is utterly terrifying.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

So you're arguing she's getting a free pass because of her womanhood.

Spectacular.

A man with her background and work ethic would probably have actually already been President already.

Yeah she'll probably end up like Pres. Buchanan. Luckily I wasn't around to see that total mess.

As for Zandi: Obama, Sanders and Clinton have used that line... literally all of em soooo not like she's unique there.

Democrats exagerate but he did work for the McCain campaign on some capacity.

It's irrelevant if she's unique and it's false rather than an exaggeration. Zandi never spoke directly to or met with McCain according to his real chief economist that actually performed that service. She intentionally mislead the public.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yeah she'll probably end up like Pres. Buchanan. Luckily I wasn't around to see that total mess.



It's irrelevant if she's unique and it's false rather than an exaggeration. Zandi never spoke directly to or met with McCain according to his real chief economist that actually performed that service. She intentionally mislead the public.

But you used it for why she is unqualified. The literal current President used it. Is he unqualified? It is completely relevant because you are tying this lie to why she's obviously unqualified but it's something that's nern said by it seems a lot of major Democrats

Zandi still worked in some capacity. Are all three of them stretching the truth in order to make Zandi's shit look bi partisan (well even more than it already is) sure. How that disqualifies her specfically for President is beyond me though.

In the 2008 presidential race, though, he did support Republican candidate Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. He donated more than $2,000 to McCain’s campaign, and he was one of several economists advising McCain in an official capacity.

I mean polifact was so outraged they called Clinton's comment half true

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...n-trump-both-say-moodys-economist-others-tea/


For the record are you actually a Trump supporter because if so hinging your argument on this microscopic issue and talking about misleading the public becomes just infinitely more hilarious.

 

[MIMIC]

1) You combined the two by talking about the Clinton campaign. The only story with even the slightest ties to Clinton's actual 08 campaign was the muslim story and those ties are infinitesimal

"Something I learned during this entire exchange: Hillary supporters started the birther crap."

Your can say whatever you want, but I've already distinctly separated both issues; I have not combined them. And if it's not already clear, they are two entirely, separate issues. Just because I say "perpetuated a lie" doesn't mean you get to decide which "lie" I'm referring to. Or maybe that's my mistake. S from now on, I will be specific about which lie I am referring to. But for future reference, when I say "campaign," I'm referring to the Muslim lie. And when I say "supporters" I'm referring to the birther/citizenship lie.

2) Lol @ I don't throw around numbers. We don't have to guestimate here, we actually have the concrete numbers: 2. You just saying the Clinton campaign actually obfuscates the situation because it makes it sound far more prevalent than literally 2 volunteers.

Whether it was 1 or 100, they used their capacity as a member of the Clinton campaign to spread lies about Obama. So 2 volunteers did it. OK? It's still the Clinton campaign. But you guys belittle the conduct of Clinton's own campaign MANAGER (unrelated issue) so it's not like this is any different.

You tried to tie it to Clinton right here

3)

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ump/hillary-clinton-obama-birther-fact-check/

So "people in her campaign" = "Hillary Clinton"? I'm just going to go ahead and roll my eyes at this.

4) Putting Clinton in big caps was just hilarious is all. As if the actions of literally a handful of people somehow really truly represented Clinton and her supporters so much that you had to all caps her name for emphasis

I'm not getting into exactly how many of these people were responsible for this racist propaganda. I don't care. All I know was that enough of them contributed to it in order for it to go mainstream. And they were Clinton supporters. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

It is a little ironic how this is almost identical to the issue about dividing up Trump supporters, separating them into "racists" and "non-racists." Nobody's has the time or the patience to differentiate between the two. Enough of them made enough of an impact to take the movement mainstream. And that's all that matters.

As for:



I say again



http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/was-hillary-clinton-the-original-birther/

No one working for Clinton had any involvment in birthirism.

The exact number from both stories combined who actually any ties to the 08 Clinton campaign is 2. Both of them on the muslim story, both local volunteers, both immediately repudiated and dismissed and removed from the campaign because they were racists.

Once again:

Birther movement: Clinton SUPPORTERS
Muslim story: Clinton CAMPAIGN

 

[korona15]

I'm glad Hilldawg said the comment. After all, it's true! So happy that Mr. Trump found it insulting. He needs to be insulted more often. This guy, he thinks we should have pillaged and plundered Iraq's oil. Blatant imperialism for fuck's sake! The guy is insane. His supporters are deplorable and deserve to be called out as such.

 

[sazzy]

I have this conversation with my cousin all the time. There is no point in ever attacking the supporters of a candidate. I'm sure there are murderers and rapists supporting Hillary, just as there bigots and racists supporting Trump. Neither candidate is in control of that, so what's the point?

On average, you would probably have similar % numbers of rapists, murderers, thieves, on either side. These categories of people aren't supporting either candidate en masse.

However, racists, bigots, xenophobes, homophobes ARE supporting Trump en masse.

 

[excelsiorlef]

"

Your can say whatever you want, but I've already distinctly separated both issues; I have not combined them. And if it's not already clear, they are two entirely, separate issues. Just because I say "perpetuated a lie" doesn't mean you get to decide which "lie" I'm referring to. Or maybe that's my mistake. S from now on, I will be specific about which lie I am referring to. But for future reference, when I say "campaign," I'm referring to the Muslim lie. And when I say "supporters" I'm referring to the birther/citizenship lie.

And yes, we found a handful of racist Democrats. And look where we are: it has evolved into a completely racist smear campaign, thanks to these racist people working for Clinton. Great job, now that the tactics are in more capable hands (Trump and HIS supporters). But I guess I can't blame them: they only wanted Hillary to win, and that's all that matters, right? The consequences are just minor inconveniences.

That was you directly implying birtherism came from the Clinton campaign.

It is a little ironic how this is almost identical to the issue about dividing up Trump supporters, separating them into "racists" and "non-racists." Nobody's has the time or the patience to differentiate between the two. Enough of them made enough of an impact to take the movement mainstream. And that's all that matters.

This is why I asked if you bleed disingenuously.

This is not almost identical to Trump it is not even close. Trump hires racists to run his campaign. He campaigns on racism. The prevelant racism in a large portion of his followers is easily identifiable

Clinton repudiated all 2 of the open racists in her 08 campaign. Drops them and makes it clear there's no room for that. A literal handful of supporters did horrible things which were immediately shot down by Clinton herself and condemned outright.

The idea that there is so many racist supporters for Clinton that we can't parse them out from the non-racists is ridiculous.

The only person who seemingly doesn’t have the time or patience to do this is you. Qu'elle surprise

 

[BanGy.nz]

These arguments with MIMIC derail practically every thread related to Hillary Clinton.

 

[Riddick]

These arguments with MIMIC derail practically every thread related to Hillary Clinton.

MIMIC has the patience to reply respectfully to the avalanche of Clinton supporters in here who are often less than respectful to him, to say the least. Call me crazy but I don't call that derailment, I call that debate, something that some of you apparently are allergic to.

 

[besada]

These arguments with MIMIC derail practically every thread related to Hillary Clinton.

If you have a complaint about another poster, contact a mod.

 

[kmfdmpig]

On average, you would probably have similar % numbers of rapists, murderers, thieves, on either side. These categories of people aren't supporting either candidate en masse.

However, racists, bigots, xenophobes, homophobes ARE supporting Trump en masse.

You're right, and going by the survey data Giga posted in this thread the biggest proponents of Trump were the most racist group in the primary cycle. Clinton's supporters were less racist, and fairly significantly so, but not so much so that it seems wise for her to classify 1/2 of Trump supporters as irredeemable or deplorable.

From the charts it seems like roughly 30% of Clinton's supporters are raging racists and 44% of Trump's are. That is a significant difference, but it's depressing for two reasons:
1) The candidate with the most racist supporters won in both primary
2) Even Clinton supporters, which are obviously much less bigoted than Trump's supporters have an alarmingly high amount of racism within their support.

If the difference was something like 50% of Trump's supporters being racist and 10% (or ideally less) of Clinton's then a statement like hers would make more sense.

In this thread there is a tendency for any statement not 100% in support of what Hillary said to be twisted into support of Trump, false equivalence, etc.. That's not what I'm doing. I hate Trump. He's easily the worst candidate of my lifetime. I also agree that the Trump supporters are less informed and more bigoted. I just think that in this discussion we overlook the fact that the American people as a whole have a lot of work to do, and that Trump supporters are the worst part of that they're not the be all and end all of shitty views among the electorate.

Talking about race in relation to this election will be important. What I would have recommended would be that she avoided this, continued on her course, focused on the debates, which should provide her an incredible opportunity to showcase professionalism and knowledge against immaturity and ignorance and then after winning the election use her position to begin a dialogue about the harmful issues and stances that came up during the election as a way to force people to reflect on some of the ideas that came up during this cycle and better understand why they were so wrongheaded. We can't just go on as if the anti-Muslim shit did not happen and pretend that because an election was won with 55/57% of the electorate that all is well.

 

[EmpressInYellow]

In this thread there is a tendency for any statement not 100% in support of what Hillary said to be twisted into support of Trump, false equivalence, etc.. That's not what I'm doing. I hate Trump. He's easily the worst candidate of my lifetime. I also agree that the Trump supporters are less informed and more bigoted. I just think that in this discussion we overlook the fact that the American people as a whole have a lot of work to do, and that Trump supporters are the worst part of that they're not the be all and end all of shitty views among the electorate.

That's absolutely true, but I still think it's safe to draw a distinction between your garden-variety racism and avowed white nationalism. They're both horrid and both need to be addressed, but the latter represents an organized political movement that's scary in its own unique way - like, "eliminationism directed at entire ethnic groups" scary.