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[staticneuron]

You shouldn't be labelled anything. You have a reasonable position and should be respected, I think. I just disagree with the narrative you present. Sony have - at several points - taken anti-consumer practices to some beautiful places last few years. I say that as someone who continues to use Sony products and am generally happy with the service they provide. But the rootkit case WAS a huge deal. Sure, its years ago now. The pursuit of Geohot and the use of Youtube user IPs - while enabled by a court - is way beyond the pale.

I actually agree with you about Linux. That's bullshit - but lets not pretend that Sony 'are just like every media corporation' or silly claims like that. They are special. They do special things.

Oh don't get me wrong. Anyone actually affected certainly have the right to say something and I will always side with them, I am just under the impression that there are "additional" voices that aren't really affected but only jump on the bandwagon to complain. Hence people trying to tie stuff together despite different departments and management.

Sony BMG was in the wrong for rootkit. Sony also is responsible for the battery malfunctions ( I am sure they didn't do it maliciously though). And I side with the people who actually used linux. They have every reason to be upset. Again I am just putting those who are affected versus those who push agenda's in a different light.

You probably missed the Amazon, AT&T, Vodafone, T-Mobile, Shell, BP, GreenPeace, Obama, Bush, Al Gore, Nintendo, Square Enix, Sega, Lady Gaga, Superman etc. hate. Everything gets hated on even more so if companies like Sony fuck up then the hate grows even stronger. But there's a certain balance in the force because for every couple of guys that say that PlayStation sux and Saturn rules there's a bunch of fans thanking Sony for a lack of status updates. Also something that has been popular for decades can be the most hated thing/person in the world in mere months, see Tony Blair. Likewise something that was hated before can turn into something great in the eyes of many like Samsung.

No, I don't miss the hate other companies get, I am just pointing out that in the terms of the gaming community, this stuff has become directed and has gotten worse over time.

Of course alot of big companies are going to catch hate for what they do, but I am talking more about the reasoning behind some peoples hate.

 

[VisanidethDM]

It really doesn't matter what it was for to be honest. That was a dick move par excellence and made them instantly the "evil corporation". You can't fuck up big time and expect or hope that people will forgive. Obviously, some didn't.

Good lord, I'm willing to risk a ban but I need to call you out on your stupidity. That's it? For real?
"Context doesn't matter, the actual facts don't matter, Sony asked for something something about some Youtube info and that makes them EVIL!!".

Do you realize you just said you don't care about the truth, and that you're just a gullible idiot who wants an excuse to hate on a corporation?

What's evil in asking for data to see from where people were watching the videos to prove where the trial was held? Sony never asked to pursue the viewers, never called them into the trial, never asked for personal info - it was just about proving where the "audience" of those videos stood.

Jeez.

 

[Mailenstein]

Go read WHY and HOW Sony asked for those Youtube info. Apply critical thinking and don't believe everything you're told by interested parties.

I know why and how and it doesn't change anything as far as my pov goes. As a customer I don't see a single reason, why I would stand in for that company. And yes, I blame them for the breach, not the hackers.

Good lord, I'm willing to risk a ban but I need to call you out on your stupidity. That's it? For real?
"Context doesn't matter, the actual facts don't matter, Sony asked for something something about some Youtube info and that makes them EVIL!!".

Do you realize you just said you don't care about the truth, and that you're just a gullible idiot who wants an excuse to hate on a corporation?

What's evil in asking for data to see from where people were watching the videos to prove where the trial was held? Sony never asked to pursue the viewers, never called them into the trial, never asked for personal info - it was just about proving where the "audience" of those videos stood.

Jeez.

You don't get my point. Like I ever said I don't care for the truth, huh? So you like corporations going around and demanding for access info on YT videos? Good for you. I don't like that. As I said, it makes no difference to me why, how, where, when etc., because the fact that they did it, is enough for me. You may not understand that, but that is not my problem.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

I know why and how and it doesn't change anything as far as my pov goes. As a customer I don't see a single reason, why I would stand in for that company. And yes, I blame them for the breach, not the hackers.

Wow. Some people will blindly look for any reason possible to hate a company. Prime example right here.

 

[VisanidethDM]

I know why and how and it doesn't change anything as far as my pov goes. As a customer I don't see a single reason, why I would stand in for that company. And yes, I blame them for the breach, not the hackers.

Thanks, I guess I got a pretty good picture now.

 

[VisanidethDM]

You don't get my point. Like I ever said I don't care for the truth, huh? So you like corporations going around and demanding for access info on YT videos? Good for you. I don't like that. As I said, it makes no difference to me why, how, where, when etc., because the fact that they did it, is enough for me. You may not understand that, but that is not my problem.

You literally said you don't care why they did it, and you don't care what they actually asked for, and you don't care about the nature of the info and how they were used. They did something, on the Internet, about Youtube, and that's enough to fight them like the devil.

Yes, you're literally saying you don't give a damn about the facts and anything is a good excuse to hate. I'm not even trolling you, my version of your statement probably looks smarter.

 

[Mailenstein]

Wow. Some people will blindly look for every reason possible to hate a company. Prime example right here.

I would hate on every company, which isn't able to keep their systems updated where my data is stored on. It's their job in the first place. Why is it so bad to be upset about that?

 

[Audioboxer]

I would hate on every company, which isn't able to keep their systems updated where my data is stored on. It's their job in the first place. Why is it so bad to be upset about that?

Well one would think that reason would only be "part of your hate", and that you would also be angry at people unlawfully and illegally going after your data with malicious intent.

 

[DrForester]

Wow. Some people will blindly look for any reason possible to hate a company. Prime example right here.

You can dislike both. I don't agree with Sony's handling of the gehotz hack at all, and think they should just drop it. At the same time I hate the hackers to threatening to just release all the consumer data like this.

 

[enewtabie]

So from this thread I gather that some people believe it's Sony's fault they were hacked and they asked for it. wow lol

Well I guess when this guy or guys get caught they'll be in my local FCI along with Bernie Madoff and the Blind Shiek. It's got great views of the countryside and great medical care.

I just want to play some Socom at this point.

 

[Degen]

Well one would think that reason would only be "part of your hate", and that you would also be angry at people unlawfully and illegally going after your data with malicious intent.

Well it wouldn't have happened if she didn't wear such revealing clothing they had better security, so it's really her their own fault it happened

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Not Sony's fault, but it seems like Sony's security was pretty lacking.

 

[Mailenstein]

You literally said you don't care why they did it, and you don't care what they actually asked for, and you don't care about the nature of the info and how they were used. They did something, on the Internet, about Youtube, and that's enough to fight them like the devil.

Yes, you're literally saying you don't give a damn about the facts and anything is a good excuse to hate. I'm not even trolling you, my version of your statement probably looks smarter.

Again, it makes no difference. It's not my problem for what they need it and how they were asking for it. I just don't want my data be given out to them, just because they are asking for it - on principle. Why is that so hard to understand?

Well one would think that reason would only be "part of your hate", and that you would also be angry at people unlawfully and illegally going after your data with malicious intent.

Well you see, there always will be people going to steal something from you or to hurt you in any kind of way. If you don't secure your network or your computer at home for example, you can't blame anybody but yourself. And that's what I'm doing here.

 

[VisanidethDM]

Well it wouldn't have happened if she didn't wear such revealing clothing they had better security, so it's really her their own fault it happened

It's not EXACTLY the same, as you can argue you pay Sony for keeping your data secure (yes, yes, free service but it's one place where Sony haters have ground to argue), but yes, the hate toward Sony is well beyond the bounds of rationality.

 

[Audioboxer]

Well it wouldn't have happened if she didn't wear such revealing clothing they had better security, so it's really her their own fault it happened

Well I'm not disputing that, but the people behind this would probably still have had a go at doing the same thing, and since I do not know the skill levels of the individuals I can't really speculate on their success/failure even with a better security system. A lot of people coin the phrase if it's man made it can be hacked/reversed, and we've seen security systems one would think are far better than Sony's be taken down/breached. So we can muse till the end of the day, but we're still at where we're at.

Anon still DDOS'd PSN as well.

At the end of the day Sony's security oversights don't excuse illegal, malicious and unlawful actions carried out by the hackers. Their response is not a legal response to the whole OtherOS removal scenario, where as, last time I checked Sony taking George Hotz to court was indeed legal.

 

[Mailenstein]

It's not EXACTLY the same, as you can argue you pay Sony for keeping your data secure (yes, yes, free service but it's one place where Sony haters have ground to argue), but yes, the hate toward Sony is well beyond the bounds of rationality.

Oh I see, so people giving out their CC info have to hope it's stored safely. Oh lord.

But anyway, it's my own fault in the first place that I gave it to them.

 

[VisanidethDM]

Again, it makes no difference. It's not my problem for what they need it and how they were asking for it. I just don't want my data be given out to them, just because they are asking for it - on principle. Why is that so hard to understand?

If the court ruled that they were entitled to those data, because those data were sensible data that Sony could have exploited, or for privacy issues, or because asking for those data was either illegal or immoral, you would have a point.

But it was (sensibly) ruled that the invoked use of that data was fair, and useful to the trial, and thus the data was given. You may dislike it, but that doesn't make Sony evil or the judges crazy. If you had any right to claim Sony shouldn't have been given those data, they wouldn't have, so it's just you being weird here.

 

[harrytang]

Not Sony's fault, but it seems like Sony's security was pretty lacking.

Sony's fault if they were aware of potential security holes and did nothing to fix them. Their fault if they just assumed no one would be able to exploit their system.

We trust them with a lot of our data and that trust should go both ways. We use the online store thinking Sony will do whatever it takes to keep our info safe. I think we're seeing that's simply not the case.

 

[The Lamonster]

Right....because publicizing the personal data of a bunch of gamers sure will get back at Sony... fuck these hacker idiot scumbags.

 

[WickedCobra03]

I LOVE THE ALL DIGITAL FUTURE. Yeah, this sucks having to watch your cards daily now and being on edge because it is your crap they are messing with, not a huge corporations.

[EDIT] Has Nintendos crummy "having to enter your info every time you want to buy somehing" on the Wii store the way to go? I dunno? But now I am probably going to make use of those stupid point/money cards.

 

[VisanidethDM]

Oh I see, so people giving out their CC info have to hope it's stored safely. Oh lord.

But anyway, it's my own fault in the first place that I gave it to them.

Now I could explain how nothing on the Internet can possibly be safe, but it's a fact, and you don't care about them. Sony should have invented secure internets that nobody else on the planet has, and they didn't, and that's enough for you.

 

[Vagabundo]

My pov; hackers, criminals and the rest are like the internet weather and if you live in a stormy location it is your fault if you make your house out of balsa wood. And you are a negligent moron if you open a café made out of balsa wood without telling your customers (and they all die).

That's my analogy.

seems like Sony's security was pretty lacking: Sony's fault.

I, helpfully, rearranged that for you.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Seriously though nothing on the internet is that secure. If it is secure it's because someone hasn't tried to fuck with it enough. There are exceptions of course.


It's like an optical illusion. Bank of America web banking is not that secure. Facebook is not that secure.

Sony security should be and better get way better but at the same time, people gotta expect the possible lol. Make contingency plans and enroll in plans by the bank that protect your account from theft and etc.

 

[daviyoung]

But anyway, it's my own fault in the first place that I gave it to them.

So how much money has been taken from your account?

 

[ElRenoRaven]

You can dislike both. I don't agree with Sony's handling of the gehotz hack at all, and think they should just drop it. At the same time I hate the hackers to threatening to just release all the consumer data like this.

Oh I'm not disputing that. I agree both Sony and the Hackers are equally guilty of fucking up. However this guy says flat out he don't give a damn about the facts and that Sony is evil. That's blind hatred.

 

[VisanidethDM]

Sony's fault if they were aware of potential security holes and did nothing to fix them. Their fault if they just assumed no one would be able to exploit their system.

We trust them with a lot of our data and that trust should go both ways. We use the online store thinking Sony will do whatever it takes to keep our info safe. I think we're seeing that's simply not the case.

We have no evidence of that, and we never will. All it takes is a dude on a forum saying "The CC info wasn't encrypted!" or a guy making a statement that "

Spoiler

it could be possible that

Sony used outdated technology,

Spoiler

and I imagine that if they did that, there could have been circumstances

leading to a compromised security status" (spoilered text was removed in order to make the statement more clear and remove unnecessary context)... and you'll have an angry mob. People on the internet will believe anything, as long as it pushes their own agenda or supports their own outlook, and that's that.

Sony was violated (like a bazillion companies before them), and that's enough to hate them. We don't need facts, they MUST have done something evil along the way.

 

[Mailenstein]

If the court ruled that they were entitled to those data, because those data were sensible data that Sony could have exploited, or for privacy issues, or because asking for those data was either illegal or immoral, you would have a point.

But it was (sensibly) ruled that the invoked use of that data was fair, and useful to the trial, and thus the data was given. You may dislike it, but that doesn't make Sony evil or the judges crazy. If you had any right to claim Sony shouldn't have been given those data, they wouldn't have, so it's just you being weird here.

So just because a judge ruled something to be fair has to be automatically fair in my world? Good thing I have my own mind and still see things different.

Now I could explain how nothing on the Internet can possibly be safe, but it's a fact, and you don't care about them. Sony should have invented secure internets that nobody else on the planet has, and they didn't, and that's enough for you.

It's a different question if they did their best to secure their network. But knowingly leave their stuff unpatched even there are know possibilities of exploiting them, is not what I call professional or "the best they could do". You gotta bring more to the table than "nothing is safe on the internet", seriously mate.

 

[shintoki]

Oh don't get me wrong. Anyone actually affected certainly have the right to say something and I will always side with them, I am just under the impression that there are "additional" voices that aren't really affected but only jump on the bandwagon to complain. Hence people trying to tie stuff together despite different departments and management.

By the sound of it, you didn't use Linux either. Therefore you would be an "additional" voice too, just in the opposite corner. Putting a qualification on emotions, where only those directly under it's effect is not a good argument to make. It's an extremely flawed one which puts any sort of minority at a disadvantage. Even if it was 1 out of 1000, that 1 got screwed over hard at having to choice between having Linux removed or forfeiting all online functions, games that require Firmware updates, and anything else involved updating the system. Most of the disdain for it came from the nature, not the actual removal.

 

[Mailenstein]

So how much money has been taken from your account?

I don't care about the money, but about identity theft.

 

[staticneuron]

I would hate on every company, which isn't able to keep their systems updated where my data is stored on. It's their job in the first place. Why is it so bad to be upset about that?

Since Sony has not released what type of setup they have had or even how the servers interact with each other then, the idea about "updates" and security issues are speculation.

Well you see, there always will be people going to steal something from you or to hurt you in any kind of way. If you don't secure your network or your computer at home for example, you can't blame anybody but yourself. And that's what I'm doing here.

That simply silly. There can be very sophisticated attacks that can outclass most if not all current forms of consumer based protections for sale. The idea that the victims should have seen it coming is not in anyway a valid one and certainly are just used by people who are trying to really blame sony for the attack.

I mean people have been substituting words and phrase to show how blaming the victims is bad reasoning, especially when people don't have the full information and are making their own assumptions on hearsay.

But it was (sensibly) ruled that the invoked use of that data was fair, and useful to the trial, and thus the data was given. You may dislike it, but that doesn't make Sony evil or the judges crazy. If you had any right to claim Sony shouldn't have been given those data, they wouldn't have, so it's just you being weird here.

Thank you.

 

[VisanidethDM]

My pov; hackers, criminals and the rest are like the internet weather and if you live in a stormy location it is your fault if you make your house out of balsa wood. And you are a negligent moron if you open a café made out of balsa wood without telling your customers (and they all die).

That's my analogy.

In the context of your analysis, you'd be the guy who blames the government cause people died in the heartquake.

It's not all "weather", there's forces you can't stop even with all the technology in the world. We will never know how secure Sony's system was, because 1 day after the crisis the internet was full of second hand tales of them running their firewalls on DOS and posting unencrypted CC data on Facebook. You've provided debunked evidence yourself in the last page.

On the other hand, we KNOW that a group of capable hackers hell bent on cracking a system will crack it no matter how secure it is.

We're of course ruling out this scenario because it's not nearly as fun.

 

[UFRA]

I just want to play some Socom at this point.

Amen to this.

Spoiler

and Motorstorm: Apocalypse

 

[gofreak]

I can well believe Sony was using outdated or vulnerable software, or whatever that claim is.

Sony's already said that the vulnerability involved was 'known'.

However, that's a passive-voice 'known'. They claim that SNEI management did not know about these vulnerabilities, did not know their setup was vulnerable in the way that was exploited.

So, I don't think Sony was purposefully thumbing its nose, at least at a certain level, to the security of the system. However, there may well have been a level of negligence or incompetence or poor information flow wrt security. Or a mix of all of the above. That's certainly Sony's fault, I hope they have corrected that now and will be on top of the latest on these fronts. But we'll only know, I guess, after the system's been back up for some time and if there are any more successful attacks or not.

 

[VisanidethDM]

So just because a judge ruled something to be fair has to be automatically fair in my world? Good thing I have my own mind and still see things different.

As I said, you're free to have your own outlook, but you're the one being "weird", not Sony.

It's a different question if they did their best to secure their network. But knowingly leave their stuff unpatched even there are know possibilities of exploiting them, is not what I call professional or "the best they could do". You gotta bring more to the table than "nothing is safe on the internet", seriously mate.

Knowing from WHO? Do you have any evidence of that? The people cited for saying that are tweeting about being misinterpreted. What certified evidence do we have the Sony wasn't keeping an acceptable level of security?

Once again, if Sony has fault, a court will decide it.

 

[params7]

Shift the blame all you want fact still remains Sony had inferior-than-hackers security. If they had firewalls that oneupped hacker's tools, detected it, stopped it, they could have prevented all of this.

Though I bet now having state of the art firewall technology protecting sensitive data is one area Sony won't goof up in.

 

[alphaNoid]

So we've moved on from trying to figure out who's most to blame, Sony or the intruders to telling other people how they can and cannot feel about the situation?

Lets make this real simple ...

1. Criminals breached Sonys security and stole information.
2. Sony's security is a joke, its very much on their shoulders to secure consumers sensitive data. They failed on a catastrophic level.
3. 100 million+ users data was compromised.

1+2=3

Feel as you may about either, but in addition to the evil hackers ... Sony is very much to blame for lackluster infrastructure here. I would be just as pissed at my bank if thieves were to have easy access to my money and personal information.

As a consumer, every single last one of us is allowed to feel as we choose about either Sony or the hackers. We speak with our wallets and nobody here really has any justifiable reason to tell someone they can only blame the hackers or that Sony isn't to blame at all. I suspect though that most of the bickering still going on is a direct reflection of just how frustration Sonys customers are ... 2 and half weeks of complete failure and its starts to wear on people.

Gamers turning against gamers, instead of focusing attention on the real problem.

 

[Mailenstein]

Since Sony has not released what type of setup they have had or even how the servers interact with each other then, the idea about "updates" and security issues are speculation.

At their press conference they said "it was a known vulnerability".

That simply silly. There can be very sophisticated attacks that can outclass most if not all current forms of consumer based protections for sale. The idea that the victims should have seen it coming is not in anyway a valid one and certainly are just used by people who are trying to really blame sony for the attack.

I mean people have been substituting words and phrase to show how blaming the victims is bad reasoning, especially when people don't have the full information and are making their own assumptions on hearsay.

Once again, if they did their best they could do to secure their network, it would be a different case. But they obviously didn't and that's why I blame them.

 

[lucius]

So from this thread I gather that some people believe it's Sony's fault they were hacked and they asked for it. wow lol

Well I guess when this guy or guys get caught they'll be in my local FCI along with Bernie Madoff and the Blind Shiek. It's got great views of the countryside and great medical care.

I just want to play some Socom at this point.

I do blame Sony for some of this, I most likely will only buy from then now with paid cards and will buy less psn stuff now. I think they are going to lose millions from this for sure, but if these people really wanted to and put their focus on Microsoft live or even Amazon I dont have doubts they could security breach them also.

 

[FlawlessCowboy]

And the PR hits just keep coming.

 

[stuminus3]

My view on this fiasco is getting simpler by the day. Cyber terrorists, fucking stupid cunts the lot of them. I don't care what your cause is anymore, you don't speak for me.

You know how you "get back" at Sony? Don't buy their fucking products. It's that fucking simple. Jesus fucking Christ.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

And the PR hits just keep coming.

Link

 

[Freyjadour]

So from this thread I gather that some people believe it's Sony's fault they were hacked and they asked for it. wow lol

Well I guess when this guy or guys get caught they'll be in my local FCI along with Bernie Madoff and the Blind Shiek. It's got great views of the countryside and great medical care.

I just want to play some Socom at this point.

It is Sony's fault. Their security was poor and breached because of this.

Any sensible person would have no issues blaming a company for incompetence. This has nothing to do with who breached the system because it would not have happened if the correct security was in place. Not to mention the unencrypted personal data and storing passwords AT ALL.

All of these mistakes by Sony are textbook failures that even a startup nobody should be ashamed and berated for.

 

[params7]

Again, there's irc chatlogs of anon in February taking apart PSN's infrastructure easy. THEY detected outdated software supporting PSN's architecture. If Sony would have been alert here instead of spending everything on lawyers they probably should've went "our security is not as strong as it seems, time to do something about it".

 

[Hanmik]

As a consumer, every single last one of us is allowed to feel as we choose about either Sony or the hackers. .

but you insist on returning in every Sony PSN down thread and tell us we should blame Sony.. you actually just did it again..

 

[Mailenstein]

As I said, you're free to have your own outlook, but you're the one being "weird", not Sony.

Yeah sure, I'm the weird one, the stupid dipshit etc., but you are the one to argue with "nothing safe on the internet, not Sony's fault". Funny.

Knowing from WHO? Do you have any evidence of that? The people cited for saying that are tweeting about being misinterpreted. What certified evidence do we have the Sony wasn't keeping an acceptable level of security?

Once again, if Sony has fault, a court will decide it.

Watch their press conference.

 

[VisanidethDM]

2. Sony's security is a joke, its very much on their shoulders to secure consumers sensitive data. They failed on a catastrophic level.

How do you know? Do you have any evidence, or are you willing to believe any second hand opinion or rumor because it suits you better?

Why are we passing rumors for facts, and passing judgement on the involved parties, before knowing the actual truth?

 

[gregor7777]

Again, there's irc chatlogs of anon in February taking apart PSN's infrastructure easy. THEY detected outdated software supporting PSN's architecture. If Sony would have been alert here instead of spending everything on lawyers they probably should've went "our security is not as strong as it seems, time to do something about it".

Apache, as an example, can report outdated version numbers even though it's up to date. Not saying it's bulletproof even when fully updated or that it is in fact updated, just that asking Aapche for a version number isn't always going to get you an accurate response.

 

[harrytang]

We have no evidence of that, and we never will.

Sony was violated (like a bazillion companies before them), and that's enough to hate them. We don't need facts, they MUST have done something evil along the way.

I disagree. I believe there will be a full investigation and evidence will be found either assessing the weakness of the security system by internal review or by some external consultation firm that they hired detailing security holes. Either way i'm sure the legal system will be utilized to reach some conclusion on this matter.

I certainly don't think Sony evil. However, is what capitalism breeds in my opinion. You cater to the share holders and decisions were made to spend money else where to increase profitability. In this case they got burned. I doubt they will make this mistake again.

 

[Freyjadour]

How do you know? Do you have any evidence, or are you willing to believe any second hand opinion or rumor because it suits you better?

Why are we passing rumors for facts, and passing judgement on the involved parties, before knowing the actual truth?

The better question is do you? Data was stored in plaintext. Passwords were stored at all. If these two things alone were different this whole situation would be a different conversation.

 

[patsu]

Good ! Keep coming back until the authorities get every single one of them. PSN will have to figure out its way to stay up and safe in the mean time.

The better question is do you? Data was stored in plaintext. Passwords were stored at all. If these two things alone were different this whole situation would be a different conversation.

Passwords were/are stored as hashes. I think they said credit card data were encrypted.