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[Curufinwe]

Speak for yourself. I was planning on buying MK9 new but when I heard it had the online pass bullshit I boycotted the game. My friend has the game and I won't even borrow it from him out of principal.

I think the point is that you are speaking for yourself, and only a handful of other people. As was stated, online passes don't affect people who buy the game new, and if you were just going to wait to buy the game used, you're not a customer of the publisher, you're a customer of Gamestop or some other used game retailer.

 

[NullPointer]

I think the point is that you are speaking for yourself, and only a handful of other people. As was stated, online passes don't affect people who buy the game new, and if you were just going to wait to buy the game used, you're not a customer of the publisher, you're a customer of Gamestop or some other used game retailer.

If affects anybody you would let borrow your game as well.

 

[Curufinwe]

True, and it would genuinely suck for anyone who wanted to pass a game around. I just don't think it's going to generate widespread enough outrage that it will backfire on the publishers, especially since we're always moving closer to the majority of videogames being downloaded instead of bought in a store.

 

[SolidusDave]

If affects anybody you would let borrow your game as well.

Only if you refuse to let them download the key via your account.

 

[CadetMahoney]

If affects anybody you would let borrow your game as well.

It also affects how much you can price-negotiate on the used market (forums etc.)

 

[KiteGr]

I blame EA for infecting the industry with this shit.

I blame EA AND Capcom, especially with the 3DS Mercenaries thing they did plus 3 editions of Street Fighter, 100 ports to all consoles, 3 editions of Re5 and paying not for content but for keys to access content that is already in the disc.

In any case what "Pass" seems to me is that it is some kind subscription to get DLCs for lower price, like the LA Noire's. Either it would be Resistance 3's subscription or maybe Sony will have that for Sony games, like Uncharted, Motorstorm AND Resistance. One massive subscription for all the future DLCs..

 

[patsu]

I think there will be outrage regardless of the numbers, especially if fueled by the media. ^_^

 

[surly]

They did this with Socom PSP. That's the only one I know of, but there may be more.

Wasn't that the first game this gen to have one of these online passes? I think they beat THQ by a day or two.

SOCOM was an account verification system wasn't it? You didn't actually have to pay anything.

Have the second hand prices of games with online passes dropped in general? You would think that a game would be worth less when sold on eBay or wherever because the buyer would know that they've got to add $10 to the price for the online play.

 

[njean777]

I think a good 50/50 option for this system would be to let people who rent have 5 days to play online for free then if they want to play longer they pay. Same with used game sales.

 

[beast786]

What is a point of an online pass advertisement on a new resistance bundle ? This seems something like a pass that will include all DLC for that title in future.

 

[funkystudent]

so its a online pass?

well whatever.. I am ok with them.

What I am not ok with is yet another stupid logo ruining the Resistance 3 box art in europe.

we already got the dumb Bubble crapping it up and now this?

 

[Eternia]

Most people play the majority of the time when they first own the game. During the time Second Hand Buyer is playing multiplayer, Original Buyer would most likely not have been playing much at all. It's the same theory that applies to gym memberships. Memberships are priced knowing that many people will buy a one year membership, go for a month or two, and then stop using it. If the original use could turn around and sell the remaining time on the annual membership, it would completely change the dynamics of the business.

There are arguments to be made on both sides, but it's not true that second hand sales don't increase the server activity beyond that expected from a single buyer.




And for me it's the opposite. That doesn't make either one of us right. It just means there's not a one size fits all policy.

Why wouldn't you want more people enjoying your game? Isn't that the point of online? You hope to get people hooked and playing to spread the word for your current game and also potentially the next entry. So it brings back to the OldJadedGamer's point of how much online is in $60? What if I bought it for $40? $20? Do I have less 'rights' than others? Do I put unnecessary burden on servers if I play too much? Do I get money back if I play less than the 'average allotted' time?

If their model is broken, punishing their consumer base probably won't fix it.

 

[NullPointer]

If their model is broken, punishing their consumer base probably won't fix it.

This is the lesson of the current generation. And I'm not talking about console generation.

 

[Used-ID]

I'm OK if it's Sony/publishers charging used buyers to play online (I see Xbox Live as charging the initial buyer to play online as the initial offender here). And not just because I rarely play online games:

I'm hoping this shits all over Gamestop.

I hate everything about those stores. From the crap layout, to the mom-n-pop game store killing to "buy it for pennies and sell it for $5 less than a new game" business plan and the rest of the corporate BS.

 

[gcubed]

What is a point of an online pass advertisement on a new resistance bundle ? This seems something like a pass that will include all DLC for that title in future.

Yes, others pointed that out too, don't try to reason with a mob

 

[Totobeni]

....I hope they don't put this ugly new tag on the boxarts from now on.

The huge PSN blue circle, Only on PS and Move tags are enough.

 

[Dibbz]

Why wouldn't you want more people enjoying your game? Isn't that the point of online? You hope to get people hooked and playing to spread the word for your current game and also potentially the next entry. So it brings back to the OldJadedGamer's point of how much online is in $60? What if I bought it for $40? $20? Do I have less 'rights' than others? Do I put unnecessary burden on servers if I play too much? Do I get money back if I play less than the 'average allotted' time?

If their model is broken, punishing their consumer base probably won't fix it.

Why does everyone get the idea that this pay for online pass is due to server loads? These systems are in place to make buying used less enticing than it is right now for most consumers.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

so its a online pass?

well whatever.. I am ok with them.

What I am not ok with is yet another stupid logo ruining the Resistance 3 box art in europe.

we already got the dumb Bubble crapping it up and now this?

Nobody knows what it is yet, just usual gaf overreaction.

 

[Shig]

Seems kind of dumb to tout a feature that ostensibly adds no real value to the customer, even for Sony. Now we let you USE A STANDARD FEATURE IN THE GAME YOU BOUGHT! Are we sure that's what this is, or is this another fine game of Jump to Conclusions?

Maybe it's something like Netflix; Pay a flat monthly fee to access a huge heap of the content on the service freely for as long as you remain an active subscriber. Think a much larger-scale PSN Plus. I imagine there's an enormous imbalance in which games are actively selling DLC, setting it up as a monthly subscription fee split between companies/games that opt their content in would probably yield better results in a great many cases than keeping everything on the strict a la carte scheme they've got going. Publishers may make a tremendous profit margin on, say, every FEAR 2 expansion DLC they sell, but if they're only selling like 5 'copies' a month at this point... Getting small cut from hundreds of thousands of people via subscription would be far more profitable, even if it only averages to a fraction of a cent per piece of content. Such a system could really help revitalize online play for many games, too, there's oodles of games who have a bunch of maps that no one can even play or are fundamentally crippled because a full lobby will never all have them.

Of course, juggernauts like Call of Duty and Killzone have no need for such a system and would opt out, but hey. Same story with new releases on Netflix streaming. If they can command a premium, go for it, but it's clear there's a lot of stuff that can't.

Anyway, that would be pretty awesome and actually make a lot of sense. So that's probably not what it is. But someone needs to do it.

 

[snap0212]

and if you were just going to wait to buy the game used, you're not a customer of the publisher, you're a customer of Gamestop or some other used game retailer.

I am, and so is everyone else, always a customer of GameStop (the retailer) and never ever the customer of the Publisher.

 

[Mudkips]

Ways in which paying $10 to get online if a person buys a used game benefits Sony:
- Sony gets $10.

Ways in which paying $10 to get online if a person buys a used game hurts Sony:
- ???

I can fill in that "???" for you, and every publisher that thinks this shit isn't going to bite them in the ass.

When people buy used games, they do so because they are cheaper than new games.
When people buy used games, they are giving money to people who buy new games (be it an individual or a useless, gouging, middleman like Gamestop).
When people who buy new games have more money, they buy more new games.

Thus, adding a $10 tax used games will do nothing but result in ewer used games being sold.
When a $60 game is sold used @ $40, you end up putting $40 more into the market. (Yes, I could sell a used game for $40 and buy pineapples with it, but I am just as likely to sell a game for $40 use that to push me over the fence and buy a game / system / whatever I wouldn't have otherwise.) You also get the benefit of another person playing your game - if they like it, they may buy the sequel, tell others about it, etc.

When a $60 game is sold used @ $40, and the used buyer is expected to pony up an additional $10 for multiplayer, a few things can happen:
1: They'll just buy new.
2: They'll buy used @ $40 and pony up $10.
3: They'll buy used @ $40 and NOT pony up $10.
4: They'll buy used @ $30 and pony up $10.
5: They'll buy used @ $30 and NOT pony up $10.
6: They won't buy at all.

The effects of 1 and 2 are positive in the eyes of publishers.
The effects of 3 and 4 are neutral to the industry, but publishers will incorrectly think 4 is positive.
The effects of 5 and 6 are decidedly negative.

Options 3, 4, 5, and 6 will happen far more often than 1 or 2, and the net result will be less revenue for the industry as a whole.

Yes, others pointed that out too, don't try to reason with a mob

The PSN Pass is the one-time-use code that gets you access to online shit. It comes in every box. If you don't have it (because you bought used), you can buy one for $10.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

When a $60 game is sold used @ $40, and the used buyer is expected to pony up an additional $10 for multiplayer, a few things can happen:
1: They'll just buy new.
2: They'll buy used @ $40 and pony up $10.
3: They'll buy used @ $40 and NOT pony up $10.
4: They'll buy used @ $30 and pony up $10.
5: They'll buy used @ $30 and NOT pony up $10.
6: They won't buy at all.

The effects of 1 and 2 are positive in the eyes of publishers.
The effects of 3 and 4 are neutral to the industry, but publishers will incorrectly think 4 is positive.
The effects of 5 and 6 are decidedly negative.

Options 3, 4, 5, and 6 will happen far more often than 1 or 2, and the net result will be less revenue for the industry as a whole.

a) How do you know that 1 and 2 will happen less than the others?
b) Why is more money going to the people who make the game rather than a middleman who has produced nothing (as with 4) negative for the industry?

 

[CadetMahoney]

ppl are complaining about console boxart. . . sheesh, do you put in on a pedestal in your home surrounded by candles or something.

I'm hoping this shits all over Gamestop.

I hate everything about those stores. From the crap layout, to the mom-n-pop game store killing to "buy it for pennies and sell it for $5 less than a new game" business plan and the rest of the corporate BS.

Someone said GameStop is like a pawnshop. They prey on those in times of need and children who trade in 15 games that will be marked up for $14.

 

[antiquegamer]

a) How do you know that 1 and 2 will happen less than the others?
b) Why is more money going to the people who make the game rather than a middleman who has produced nothing (as with 4) negative for the industry?

I don't see how GameStop or other middleman be it eBay, Amazon, BestBuy or Wal-mart produced nothing. They provide service that allow you to exchange your unwanted goods for money or credit without having to do it yourself. There are plenty of people who feel that their time is better spend working and playing than dealing with shipping out used games to people you don't know, wait for payment and sometimes have to deal with returns, complains etc.

Anyway, as I said, if company make good games that worth keeping, and in packaging that are worth having and not throwaway shit that they are doing now then people would be more incline to keep their games than selling them.

I buy both used and new, depends on games and how old they are but lately due to the practice of on-line pass, dlc lock out content it actually have opposite effect on me. I now buy all my games used or at bomba price. (I browse Gaf Daily for Warior64's bomba threads).

 

[Str0ngStyle]

It's weird how some people can't understand the idea that someone would want a healthy industry as a whole that find a relatively small middle ground for compensating a relatively small amount of game makers for the 2nd hand sale of there games that they get nothing for, it's all 'me me me me me'. How many studios have gone under lately? This isn't exactly an overall healthy industry.

Fanboyism has nothing to do with it. I support any company finding a reasonable approach to helping them get something for their work.

This initiative will NOT help the industry remain healthy. It's not healthy now. There are so many other approaches that the industry could take to become/remain healthy and profitable but they won't do that. All they see is "Get that paper as fast as humanly possible. Squeeze it from every stone." Never mind that a large section of the industry flat out ignores viable revenue streams (PC, Handhelds, Mobile, F2P, Facebook.)

This is nothing but a cash grab. Why is it that THIS Generation is the only one to complain about Used Game Sales?? I think that it is a combination of bad management from the game makers side and Gamestop letting it slip one year how much they make from Used Game Sales.

But I'm about to go off on a rant here. The point is, I am going to wait until I hear from Sony Directly about what this is. But to be clear, I don't like where this is headed and I have no problem not buying games that support this practice.

You know what would be even more brilliant? Having a system wide online fee. That way, you could always be 100% sure people are paying Sony to play online. You can't let people that aren't paying play online!

Don't be surprised when PS4 drops if there is a subscription fee to play online similar to Live. Seriously people, get ready for it.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

I can fill in that "???" for you, and every publisher that thinks this shit isn't going to bite them in the ass.

When people buy used games, they do so because they are cheaper than new games.
When people buy used games, they are giving money to people who buy new games (be it an individual or a useless, gouging, middleman like Gamestop).
When people who buy new games have more money, they buy more new games.

I'm not debating most of what you said, but I don't think the bolded applies as well to Gamestop as it does to individuals. Gamestop is probably going to stock roughly the same amount of new product no matter how large their profits get. So feeding them used merchandise shouldn't necessarily lead to them buying more new merchandise. Of course, trying to disrupt their business model might lead them to stock LESS new merchandise (in retaliation), so I guess it could amount to the same thing.

 

[jackdoe]

Haha. That would be lame as hell and I could totally see Sony doing it after the precedents set by EA and other publishers. I personally buy new all the time and it won't affect me, but it's a shitty practice and one I thought would go away. Apparently it's not and it's only a matter of time until it spreads to even more publishers and becomes the norm. However, I don't see MS doing it, not because they are generous, but because they already squeeze people for online through Xbox Live Gold; asking them for a project ten dollars might just push people's tolerance over the brink.

 

[rainking187]

Wasn't that the first game this gen to have one of these online passes? I think they beat THQ by a day or two.

SOCOM was an account verification system wasn't it? You didn't actually have to pay anything.

Have the second hand prices of games with online passes dropped in general? You would think that a game would be worth less when sold on eBay or wherever because the buyer would know that they've got to add $10 to the price for the online play.

I can't tell what the current price is for the SOCOM entitlement is on PSN because I own the game and redeemed the code, but Amazon has the online entitlement priced at $20. Which is pretty crazy considering I bought a brand new copy of the UMD from them a couple of months ago for $13.

 

[davepoobond]

ways in which paying $10 to get online if they buy used benefits customers:
-

ways in which paying $10 to get online if they buy used hurts customers:
- they have to pay $10 to get online if they buy used

people buying used games arent customers (to Sony) for that particular item.

 

[Totobeni]

Don't be surprised when PS4 drops if there is a subscription fee to play online similar to Live. Seriously people, get ready for it.

will JCbossman returns to gaf if Sony put fees for PS4's online?

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

I don't see how GameStop or other middleman be it eBay, Amazon, BestBuy or Wal-mart produced nothing. They provide service that allow you to exchange your unwanted goods for money or credit without having to do it yourself. There are plenty of people who feel that their time is better spend working and playing than dealing with shipping out used games to people you don't know, wait for payment and sometimes have to deal with returns, complains etc.

Sorry, I'm unsure if you have fundamentally missed the point, or if you consider Blockbuster part of the movie industry; I am not saying middlemen retailers do not perform a business function.

I am asking how them earning less revenue affects the games industry, which has been repeatedly stated as fact in this thread, despite there being clear evidence that they make large scale profits directly at the expense of the actual gaming industry, not of retailers.

Those profits that second hand retailers make are directly eating into revenue that would otherwise be going to publishers - ie the people who fund the games industry in the first place.

I am not claiming that there is a 1:1 ratio of new games to used games if used games were unavaiable for whatever reason; I AM questioning how people can straight facedly say that initiatives like 'project $10' are in any way going to leave the games publishers worse off than they currently are.

 

[H_Prestige]

people buying used games arent customers (to Sony) for that particular item.

The original buyer was. Used game market is just transfer of ownership.

 

[jackdoe]

The original buyer was. Used game market is just transfer of ownership.

Hahaha. Game publishers sure as hell don't see it that way. Otherwise, I'd be able to "transfer my ownership" of DA2 on the PC. "Project $10" is essentially CD keys for consoles.

 

[BobTheFork]

I love resistance but the following for the series isn't the strongest one they have. Why the FUCK would Sony do anything to screw with anyone's intention to buy this game?

\

The original buyer was. Used game market is just transfer of ownership.

no, that wouldn't require a fee set by a third party (used game shop)

 

[polyh3dron]

Fuck online passes. I am ruining this industry for me since I mostly rent games.

Fixed.

 

[alr1ght]

Those profits that second hand retailers make are directly eating into revenue that would otherwise be going to publishers - ie the people who fund the games industry in the first place.

That's like the old saying of 1 pirated copy = 1 missed sale. It just doesn't hold up. They can be proactive and set up their own market to sell used games back, but they would rather just tack on fees and piss off their customers.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

That's like the old saying of 1 pirated copy = 1 missed sale. It just doesn't hold up. They can be proactive and set up their own market to sell used games back, but they would rather just tack on fees and piss off their customers.

No, I explicitly state that it is not a 1:1 ratio, but - just like piracy - there is an effect on revenue.

It is less than 1:1 but greater than 0:1.

If there were no such thing as a second hand games market, you might see people purchase 2 $60 titles a year rather than 3 $40 titles secondhand.

There is an effect. That is surely not arguable.

The extent of that effect is; apparently publishers consider the extent of that effect to be worth around $10.

 

[toastyToast]

Where is your god now console gamers?

 

[BobTheFork]

That's like the old saying of 1 pirated copy = 1 missed sale. It just doesn't hold up. They can be proactive and set up their own market to sell used games back, but they would rather just tack on fees and piss off their customers.

I'm sorry but I think it's unrealistic to suggest that a Game publisher should set up their own used game market. It's not completely viable and it would cutting sales of full price games and trying to fill the space with fraction of the same money. Their only option would be to make used games so cheap they could draw sales from ebay and gamestop, that's not happening.

Where is your god now console gamers?

Trying to get around the DRM on his PC game.

 

[LuchaShaq]

people buying used games arent customers (to Sony) for that particular item.

Yup because people who buy used games on occassion never buy psn games/dlc or new games EVER.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Where is your god now console gamers?

Where is your used game market now PC gamers?

 

[alr1ght]

If there were no such thing as a second hand games market, you might see people purchase 2 $60 titles a year rather than 3 $40 titles secondhand.

If there were no such thing as a second hand games market, there would be even less of a market for anything other than AAA big budget games @ $60. $60 is a lot of money (relatively) to risk on an unproven game that you may or may not like. With no way to recoup some of your expenses should you not like it/not want to re-play it, they would simply sell even less/drop prices even quicker. I know this is gaf though, where everyone seemingly only buys new and keeps a giant collection, but most people like to get rid of stuff if they're not going to use it any longer.

 

[kliklik]

Where is your used game market now PC gamers?

Who needs a used game market when PC gamers get such great sales and deals? Plus, you don't have to worry if the disk is so scratched that it won't work or if someone inserted the disk after pooping and not washing their hands or something.

Yup because people who buy used games on occassion never buy psn games/dlc or new games EVER.

davepoobond said "for that particular item". You're misinterpreting/twisting his words.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

If there were no such thing as a second hand games market, there would be even less of a market for anything other than AAA big budget games @ $60. $60 is a lot of money (relatively) to risk on an unproven game that you may or may not like. With no way to recoup some of your expenses should you not like it/not want to re-play it, they would simply sell even less/drop prices even quicker. I know this is gaf though, where everyone seemingly only buys new and keeps a giant collection, but most people like to get rid of stuff if they're not going to use it any longer.

The fucked up industry business model of one tier pricing and no long tail revenue streams, where marketing and press hype are routinely considered to affect sales more than playable demos, and where titles are routinely made or broken on their opening week of business after months or years of production is an entirely seperate topic.

The fact is, middlemen retailers are making large profits and at least some proprotion of those profits is directly coming from publisher revenues.

 

[Wario64]

The best online pass Sony has offered is the $10 online pass for Patapon 3. Patapon 3's MSRP is $20. lol.

 

[Projectjustice]

No surprise here. Sony makes nothing off PSN. Im surprised it took them this long to do this. XBL is looking better and better every day.

If this is just a pass requirement to fight off 2nd hand sales. Then good for Sony. Everyone should do this. Gamestop is evil.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

Who needs a used game market when PC gamers get such great sales and deals? Plus, you don't have to worry if the disk is so scratched that it won't work or if someone inserted the disk after pooping and not washing their hands or something.




davepoobond said "for that particular item". You're misinterpreting/twisting his words.

But that is only recent with DD and steam. Back in the day Pc games were buy new and no used or rental services. And really i dont see the point of used games. outlets like Amazon either through pre order cash back or agressive price drop sales eliminated any old benefit of used games. i see drops in price faster than ever before.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

outlets like Amazon either through pre order cash back or agressive price drop sales eliminated any old benefit of used games. i see drops in price faster than ever before.

That's not actually a good sign for a healthy and robust industry.

 

[BobTheFork]

No surprise here. Sony makes nothing off PSN. Im surprised it took them this long to do this. XBL is looking better and better every day.

That statement seems to indicate that you think the the company that was already trying to charge you for everything isn't going to get in on this. There is money in this, MS will follow.

 

[alr1ght]

But that is only recent with DD and steam. Back in the day Pc games were buy new and no used or rental services. And really i dont see the point of used games. outlets like Amazon either through pre order cash back or agressive price drop sales eliminated any old benefit of used games. i see drops in price faster than ever before.

You don't see the benefit of used games? People want the lowest price for something. People want to be able to sell things that they no longer want. The aggressive price drops is a result of terrible pricing to begin with.