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[Nowise10]

Black people wanting to meet and discuss problems facing our community and potential solutions are racists now. Yeah, I've heard it all now.

..Which I believe could still be done with anyone be invited to attend.

 

[A Link to the Past]

ITT: People who think racism is acceptable so long as violence is not incited.

More accurately, people are creating a separation between hurt feelings and violence. It should also be noted that racial prejudice against one group has more implications and issues than against another.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Black people wanting to meet and discuss problems facing our community and potential solutions are racists now. Yeah, I've heard it all now.

The issue isn't the movement itself (which I absolutely support). The issue is that they aren't allowing white people to take part in these discussions, which is incredibly harmful to the actual process of achieving a solution, as well as somewhat hypocritical for a group that's supposed to be about inclusion and equality

 

[Infinite]

More accurately, people are creating a separation between hurt feelings and violence. It should also be noted that racial prejudice against one group has more implications and issues than against another.

I would argue that the situation in question doesn't involve any racial prejudice but that's neither here nor there. Actually this whole tangent is irrelevant

 

[The Faceless Master]

ITT: People who think racism is acceptable so long as violence is not incited.

ITT: People who think getting murdered is just as bad as not being allowed into a meeting.

 

[HStallion]

So a one time event in Nashville equates to the rest of the BLM movement? Weren't some of you guys just telling us not to generalize a few pages ago? Fuck out of here with your nonsense! You all realize there are white and black people stopping traffic on major highways right?

 

[knkng]

I mean,

gay people kind of do that, sometimes. You're going to find a fair few gay people who are legitimately terrified of Christians.

And I sort of fall into that category myself. I'm not afraid, but I do question why anybody would swear allegiance to an organization that is openly hateful and bigoted.

However, as much as I'd like to criticize everybody for this, I feel like it would be taking things too far. Individuals may be part of these organizations for various reasons, and may not hold the same values as others within it. Some of them may even be pushing for change and inclusiveness from within, there's no real way of knowing that. But saying that I will consider every single Catholic a homophobe until the Pope condemns the bible is kind of crazy. As I've said before, I have no problem with being critical or fearful towards the police as a whole, but I'm honestly a little uncomfortable with pointing at somebody that you know nothing about and dropping the wrongdoing of their peers onto their shoulders.

That doesn't mean that all police must be assumed innocent, but at the same time I don't think they should all be assumed guilty either.

 

[Aaronrules380]

ITT: People who think getting murdered is just as bad as not being allowed into a meeting.

Nobody said that. But just because one side is much worse doesn't mean the other is capable of no wrong. I don't think it helps anybody to not point out the faults on both sides, even if one side is absolutely many, many times worse as is the case here

 

[The Faceless Master]

The fact that racism might not end in violence doesn't stop it from being racism. Look, nobody is arguing that what many of these cops are doing isn't worse. The shootings and police brutality against black people is horrific and wrong. That doesn't mean that it's ok for other, more passive agressive forms of racism to occur like not letting white people show their support for a movement like BLM. One side being more wrong (and in this case it's much more wrong) does not necessarily make the other side infallible.

Also, the idea that good cops should quit or go on strike in response to these situations seems kind of absurd, given the implications (That now everyone left involved in law enforcement is the worst of the worst). As for not speaking up: Just because they're not making a big public statement doesn't mean it isn't happening. Maybe many of the good cops aren't in a position where they can make a big stink without risking their jobs and risking their ability to feed their family.

actually, one person IS arguing just that... maybe two.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

Black Lives Matter does not have to be inclusive.

BLM being non inclusive is not racist against white people.

This isn't a gotcha, it's isn't reverse racism, it's not anti-white. If a white person is concerned about tearing down walls and building bridges, whining about BLM not letting them into the club isn't a good way to show that concern.

God. It's just the same cycle every fucking thread here.

 

[Aaronrules380]

actually, one person IS arguing just that...

Then that person is wrong. I still believe that if you want a productive dialogue, you need to be willing to own up to the mistakes of your side if you expect the other side to be willing to own up to theirs, even if the mistakes aren't equal

 

[The Faceless Master]

Nobody said that. But just because one side is much worse doesn't mean the other is capable of no wrong. I don't think it helps anybody to not point out the faults on both sides, even if one side is absolutely many, many times worse as is the case here

yeah, actually it does. it's smoke and mirrors.

"stop killing us"

'well, how about you let us into meetings in a library church in TN'

enjoy being a part of the distraction.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Black Lives Matter does not have to be inclusive.

BLM being non inclusive is not racist against white people.

This isn't a gotcha, it's isn't reverse racism, it's not anti-white. If a white person is concerned about tearing down walls and building bridges, whining about BLM not letting them into the club isn't a good way to show that concern.

God. It's just the same cycle every fucking thread here.

I would argue that it absolutely does need to be inclusive to anyone supportive of the cause if it wants to succeed. I'd also argue that there's no reason it shouldn't be inclusive to white sympathizers, and that by barring them from the discussion that you are displaying an inherent distrust and prejudice against white people which is definitely a form of racism.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Black folk wanting black only meetings in order to centralize black voices and issues is not racist or equal to segregation or whatever stupid analogy to actual racism you want to draw


The suggestion that it is why I really wish the world would just adopt the instutional definition so that this Avenue Q shit wouldn't keep coming up

 

[The Faceless Master]

So a one time event in Nashville equates to the rest of the BLM movement? Weren't some of you guys just telling us not to generalize a few pages ago? Fuck out of here with your nonsense! You all realize there are white and black people stopping traffic on major highways right?

that's the point though... people still getting murdered this month but hey remember that one time some people in that one town couldn't go to that one meeting? that's why i won't support you!

the truth is they were never going to support and they damn sure will ride that excuse forever.

some will even admit it's not really equivalent but *shrug* #AllRacismMatters

 

[HStallion]

I would argue that it absolutely does need to be inclusive to anyone supportive of the cause if it wants to succeed. I'd also argue that there's no reason it shouldn't be inclusive to white sympathizers, and that by barring them from the discussion that you are displaying an inherent distrust and prejudice against white people which is definitely a form of racism.

Maybe BLM should be allowed to sit in on the cops daily routine, maybe ride around with them in patrol cars to even things out?

 

[Aselith]

The meetings were held in a local library and BLM said white people could not attend. The library said the location was a tax payer location and that anyone could attend. BLM responded by changing locations to a CHURCH that would not let people of certain color attend. Racism is racism not sure what your argument is.

The blacks are the real racists!

 

[The Faceless Master]

I would argue that it absolutely does need to be inclusive to anyone supportive of the cause if it wants to succeed. I'd also argue that there's no reason it shouldn't be inclusive to white sympathizers, and that by barring them from the discussion that you are displaying an inherent distrust and prejudice against white people which is definitely a form of racism.

i would argue that anyone offended by that was racist anyway and was never really because actual allies would understand the distrust does not exist in a vacuum.

 

[Aaronrules380]

yeah, actually it does. it's smoke and mirrors.

"stop killing us"

'well, how about you let us into meetings in a library church in TN'

enjoy being a part of the distraction.

Perhaps and I do see your point. I still don't see why it's so hard to say: Yes, that may not have been a great move by that group, now you own up to all the black people who are being discriminated against. I feel like these tactics would be a lot less effective as distractions if people would address them or own up to these situations being wrong, and then let the conversation move on to the other issues

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

Nobody said that. But just because one side is much worse doesn't mean the other is capable of no wrong. I don't think it helps anybody to not point out the faults on both sides, even if one side is absolutely many, many times worse as is the case here

When one side of the coin is being oppressed and killed by an arm of the government and the other side is not being allowed into a meeting in one city, yeah it's best not to bring up one of those.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

It's incredible to see how many people trip over themselves to prove Jesse Williams (and the many, many others who have said the same thing without the platform he has) right in real time.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I would argue that the situation in question doesn't involve any racial prejudice but that's neither here nor there. Actually this whole tangent is irrelevant

My point was less that racial prejudice was a factor, and more that even if it was, it's so benign that the comparison is ridiculous.

 

[pigeon]

Perhaps and I do see your point. I still don't see why it's so hard to say: Yes, that may not have been a great move by that group, now you own up to all the black people who are being discriminated against. I feel like these tactics would be a lot less effective as distractions if people would address them or own up to these situations being wrong, and then let the conversation move on to the other issues

"You're distracting from the issue."
"Well, just admit that I'm right and I'll stop."

I dunno man. I feel like you are demonstrating aptly why sometimes people of color prefer safe spaces without white people to take over the conversation.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Perhaps and I do see your point. I still don't see why it's so hard to say: Yes, that may not have been a great move by that group, now you own up to all the black people who are being discriminated against. I feel like these tactics would be a lot less effective as distractions if people would address them or own up to these situations being wrong, and then let the conversation move on to the other issues

because "no, you go first" thats why

it will never 'move on' because every minor slight will be brought up

apologize for BET

apologize for HBCUs

apologize for your ancestors selling each other to mine

apologize for ... etc bla bla...

that's why it's smoke and mirrors

it will never get to the point where we talk about stop killing us

when will it be the cops turn to say "Yes, that may not have been a great move by that group" about other cops?

 

[Aaronrules380]

because "no, you go first" thats why

it will never 'move on' because every minor slight will be brought up

apologize for BET

apologize for HBCUs

apologize for your ancestors selling each other to mine

apologize for ... etc bla bla...

that's why it's smoke and mirrors

fair enough

 

[AkumaNiko]

ITT: People who think getting murdered is just as bad as not being allowed into a meeting.

ITT: People who think isolation will fix these issues instead of opening up a public forum for discussion and working together

 

[The Kree]

ITT: People who think isolation will fix these issues instead of opening up a public forum for discussion and working together

Black supremacy is a huge problem.

 

[The Faceless Master]

ITT: People who think isolation will fix these issues instead of opening up a public forum for discussion and working together

ITT: people who are not allies

 

[A Link to the Past]

ITT: People who think isolation will fix these issues instead of opening up a public forum for discussion and working together

It's not opening up when you're only doing so because people are calling you reverse racists and threatening to not support your movement if you don't let them in.

 

[Aaronrules380]

ITT: people who are not allies

I dislike the idea that people can't be critical of certain aspects of how a movement or individuals within it conduct themselves while not supporting the overall goals of the movement.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Perhaps and I do see your point. I still don't see why it's so hard to say: Yes, that may not have been a great move by that group, now you own up to all the black people who are being discriminated against. I feel like these tactics would be a lot less effective as distractions if people would address them or own up to these situations being wrong, and then let the conversation move on to the other issues

Because there's nothing wrong with what BLM Nashville did.

 

[Starphoenix]

I have as much experience with racism and law enforcement through my extended family as I can without having experienced it myself. I've known how they've been treated by police officers. Being treated like garbage because they were poor and Hispanic. My abuelo being picked on because he could barely speak English and the constant threat of deportation when his visa lapsed with no one caring to help him become legal again. My trust in law enforcement has eroded over the years due to many of the second-hand anecdotal stories I've been privy to over the years. The hard part is trying to remember not every cop is the same... And I say all this being of whiter complexion. I cannot truly understand the distrust many within my own family feel towards the police since they have more compelling reasons. All I can do is empathize and pray/push for change when available. As a Christian I am to respect the authority placed over me, but that is easier said than done sometimes.

 

[Aselith]

I dislike the idea that people can't be critical of certain aspects of how a movement or individuals within it conduct themselves while not supporting the overall goals of the movement.

It's the rare person that's actually critical rather discrediting.

 

[NimbusD]

I wonder who contacted the news to make this a story?

 

[SolVanderlyn]

all this vitriol here for simply a nice gesture...okay

Seriously

 

[Aaronrules380]

It's the rare person that's actually critical rather discrediting.

Some people are. Not everyone is. I still don't think it helps to completely handwave any criticisms. If you think the criticisms are unfair or wrong, explain why, rather than brush it off completely like I see all too often whenever anyone feels strongly about an issue.

 

[The Faceless Master]

I dislike the idea that people can't be critical of certain aspects of how a movement or individuals within it conduct themselves while not supporting the overall goals of the movement.

i dislike the idea that people can't be critical of the motives behind alleged supporters that continually display their inadequacy as a potential ally

 

[A Link to the Past]

Seriously

Yes, what honest cops. They sure did behave in a respectful way when they tried to make them feel guilty for being afraid of them.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

ITT: People who think isolation will fix these issues instead of opening up a public forum for discussion and working together

A lot of those discussions would inevitably revolve around how BLM can inconvenience white people as little as possible. A public forum like that would bog down the discussion and waste time, and there's no point in the movement making concessions to get that kind of feedback when all they have to do to see it is look at Facebook or Twitter (or even NeoGaf if they're feeling adventurous).

 

[AkumaNiko]

It's not opening up when you're only doing so because people are calling you reverse racists and threatening to not support your movement if you don't let them in.

If a white person has a store and refuses to let a black person in based on the color of their skin, what happens? They get called racist and their store gets crushed in the media and on the internet.

its called criticism, if people use "reverse racism", thats them, but i think it was dumb to exclude people who seemed like they wanted to help

 

[MUnited83]

And why are there people in this thread suggesting they're racist murderers?

Sorry Chie but that's a total cop out answer. Nobody is suggesting the police are a race, but they are a group of people that are being generalised as all being the same.



That doesn't mean they're racist murdering cops.

Nobody here said they are racist murdering cops individually, just that the police for has an issue with way too many fucking racist murdering cops in the force. A passive agressive gesture like this does literally nothing to help solve that issue, and the fact they ran straight up to brag on media is gross.

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

ITT: People who think isolation will fix these issues instead of opening up a public forum for discussion and working together

Hey guys we need to come together to fight institutional racism by our white oppressors and work on improving our own communities, you know what we need here, more white people.

Wanna gain some trust, stop putting laws on the books that strip the public from viewing police body camera and dash camera footage days after multiple killings by the police. Stop feeding our children to the criminal justice system for corporate profits. Stop sending us to prison for offenses that result in others heading to treatment facilities. All of that can be done without sitting in on BLM meetings.

For once maybe the oppressors should be the first to extend an olive branch. Then we can talk about sitting in on meetings.

 

[excelsiorlef]

If a white person has a store and refuses to let a black person in based on the color of their skin, what happens? They get called racist and their store gets crushed in the media and on the internet.

its called criticism, if people use "reverse racism", thats them, but i think it was dumb to exclude people who seemed like they wanted to help

If they wanted to help they wouldn't have run to the Nashville library management to complain

 

[The Faceless Master]

Some people are. Not everyone is. I still don't think it helps to completely handwave any criticisms. If you think the criticisms are unfair or wrong, explain why, rather than brush it off completely like I see all too often whenever anyone feels strongly about an issue.

asked ans answered.

the criticisms are a distraction.

a game of delays.

smoke and mirrors.

a way to avoid the actual issue of cops murdering people and cops defending cops or saying nothing.

 

[Aaronrules380]

i dislike the idea that people can't be critical of the motives behind alleged supporters that continually display their inadequacy as a potential ally

You can, but I don't think straight up accusing anyone who gives criticism on the issue should immediately be painted as a racist or not a good ally, or as trying to secretly undermine the group.

I personally do not believe that demonizing all cops is a productive way to actually try to solve any of these issues. If anything, it'll make things worse by increasing the tension between the groups. I agree that pressure needs to be put on the police force and that major reforms are necessary. I just think doing that can be achieved through means that are less inflammitory.

 

[D i Z]

Until "allies" get it through their heads that time is a wasting having to stop and argue with them, and explain everything to them, on their terms, the doors need to stay shut.

End of discussion. Go get your education and these burning questions and suggestions out somewhere else. Then meet us on the line when you are ready to remember who's blood is in the streets if this all goes wrong. If you still give a shit by then, then you've got something to offer, and not just us offering something to you.

 

[The Faceless Master]

If a white person has a store and refuses to let a black person in based on the color of their skin, what happens? They get called racist and their store gets crushed in the media and on the internet.

its called criticism, if people use "reverse racism", thats them, but i think it was dumb to exclude people who seemed like they wanted to help

if a blue cop murders a black person based on the color of their skin, what happens? the media trawls the internet for the worst possible photos to use and digs up their entire life story to say they deserved to die in an "officer involved shooting"

 

[AkumaNiko]

Hey guys we need to come together to fight institutional racism by our white oppressors and work on improving our own communities, you know what we need here, more white people.

Wanna gain some trust, stop putting laws on the books that strip the public from viewing police body camera and dash camera footage days after multiple killings by the police. Stop feeding our children to the criminal justice system for corporate profits. Stop sending us to prison for offenses that result in others heading to treatment facilities. All of that can be done without sitting in on BLM meetings.

For once maybe the oppressors should be the first to extend an olive branch. Then we can talk about sitting in on meetings.

so all white people are oppressors? Im white but im a second gen american, my family lineage never been involved in slavery nor do any of my family members hold or has ever held office to make any laws, does that make me an oppressor?

 

[BrutishMrFish]

You can, but I don't think straight up accusing anyone who gives criticism on the issue should immediately be painted as a racist or not a good ally, or as trying to secretly undermine the group.

If someone's complaining caused the meeting to be moved, and by extension delayed, then there is nothing secretive about their undermining of the group.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Until "allies" get it through their heads that time is a wasting having to stop and argue with them, and explain everything to them, on their terms, the doors need to stay shut.

End of discussion. Go get your education and these burning questions and suggestions out somewhere else. Then meet us on the line when you are ready to remember who's blood is in the streets if this all goes wrong.

How are people supposed to educate themselves if no one is willing to include them in a discussion?