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[reksveks]

Tell me how many of those studios announce the fact that they are outsourcing?

It's a bit weird, I do wonder Jaffe theory's about CD waiting credit as part of the deal is correct. I suspect that hiring hasn't gone the way that they wanted and so they need help. The ex-CD guys at The Initiative have used their connections to get some more help.

Overall its too early to tell if this has any negative impact on the game.

 

[Negotiator101]

So take those studios off their games they’re working on ? What kind of logic do you guys use ?

There is no logic when you're a fanboy.

 

[Negotiator101]

It's a bit weird, I do wonder Jaffe theory's about CD waiting credit as part of the deal is correct. I suspect that hiring hasn't gone the way that they wanted and so they need help. The ex-CD guys at The Initiative have used their connections to get some more help.

Overall its too early to tell if this has any negative impact on the game.

How could it possibly have a negative effect? Have more talented developers and more resources to make your game

 

[Elios83]

So after 3 years things are still so early that the head of the studio asked the company he worked with before to help them...the studio that made Avengers btw.
Given how things went with Halo and rumors about Everwild being in an other development hell it's clear that Microsoft seriously needs some good project management structure.
Just opening the wallet and then let people do whatever they want is not a good idea.

 

[martino]

I'm sad for CD.
Square enix make them work on the worst things and they are legitimately bashed for it.
And now they work with MS...This will only amplify the bashing but for warring reason.

 

[reksveks]

How could it possibly have a negative effect? Have more talented developers and more resources to make your game

Could be if there is some communication issues between the two studios (which is kinda possible with any outsourcing) and/or conflict in design goals. The other issue could be if its a custom/unique engine.

Do we know what engine Perfect Dark is supposed to be using?

 

[MonarchJT]

Why does no one listen to me? I have said more then a few times that I'm wary of Microsoft buying and making all these studios because I think they will be spreading themselves too thin.

Here is proof. They are already outsourcing. They just started development. Why are they announcing this?

Buying Studios: Is Microsoft spreading themselves too thin? Is this for the hardcore fans?

Hey guys. I been considering this for some time. At E3 2018, I was beyond excited to see the studio acquisitions Microsoft picked up. Especially for Playground Games and Ninja Theory. More recently we have inXile and Obsidian Studios join the bunch. The Initiative is still an unknown at this...

www.neogaf.com

Said this shit 3 years ago

yep u wrote it already and you were and are wrong
The initiative studio alone literally couldn't make any AAA game . Period. they needed always to outsource ... when the game went into full production. The good / new thing is that they took a full study to do it. And that they are probably finally in full production ... just because don't you hire hundreds of people paying them daily ... because you're bored.

 

[Black_Stride]

Co-development as in announcing these projects on social media b/w first-party and third-party AAA studios. This is not outsourcing. In their own words, they are "partnering".

So if you dont announce you are working with someone on a project you arent co-developing, if you announce then you are?
Okay.
I wont be discussing it further as I see no point.
Transparency is a bad thing in the games industry it seems.

Tell me how many of those studios announce the fact that they are outsourcing?

Fact of the matter is they can't do it alone and it's becoming a apparent that the supposed AAAA game the Initiative was going to make now needs the help from a studio who barely makes AAA games.

The writings are on the wall. Microsoft needs to chill out and properly cultivate the studios they have. They always just throw money at problems. They did it with buying Mixer, then buying Shroud and Ninja. They do this shit all the time instead of doing what is required to be able compete at the level Sony does. That's why I prefer the way Sony is growing. Organically. Not buying studios on the Brink of closing down. But working with studios who have proven they can stand on their own two feet and joining Sony is simply a bonus.

Maybe I am talking out of my ass, but I'm telling you something doesn't feel right about this.

Case in point.
Being transparent that you are working with someone or outsourcing is a bad sign because "reasons" but if you just keep quiet and get the co-dev help you need silently without all these genpop gamers knowing then alls well and thats a good sign.
Look at any co-dev studios portfolio and youll see some of your favorite games there, why dont they announce it on social media....maybe they think gamers dont care.
Heck look at the full credits of pretty much any AAA game and see if they did the project even remotely solo.

I for one think co-devs and outsource studios should be getting alot more attention so I applaud anytime a co-dev or outsourcing studio gets the nod.
They are unsung heros of AAA development and most gamers have no idea they even exist.

No studio can make a AAA title alone.

But yeah im leaving this thread cuz its filled with misinformation and conjecture.
We have no idea what CD is doing on the project, they could be working solely on the multiplayer component that would still be co-development, we dont know but its obviously a bad sign right?

Bye.

give me a break

 

[Moses85]

Wasnt this announced as a third person game? No it is FP?

 

[sol_bad]

So that’s how it’s going to be until February next year I guess? A bunch of starved trolls and time travelers shitting on everything?

I can’t tell who is serious and who is making parody posts at this point.

To be honest I loved the X360 where MS seemed to have been hit with the creativity bug and released some nice new IP's but by the time Kinect came out things went south fast.
It feels like MS have been spinning it's wheels ever since then and have been more interested in buying studios and setting up Gamepass rather than actually focusing on game development. Just shitting out a Halo, Gears and Forza game every so often. When did Kinect come out, in 2010? So it's taken them 11 years and their games are either still in development hell or (my personal opinion) are cheap to make online team focused like Grounded, State of Decay, Sea of Thieves or Bleeding Edge.

And I'm emphasizing those 4 games above because with their first party focus on Gamepass, I honestly believe that is how the majority of their games are going to be made. Yes, they seem to be making millions of dollars through gamepass but they need to have some sort of logistics to show if each specific game is successful on the Gamepass platform. Game costs X amount of dollars and Y amount of people play it, if Y amount of people play it do you equate that to retail sales and does that number equal profit?
What if a game costs 150 million to make but only 2 million play it on Gamepass, retail wise it hasn't made it's money back. Or maybe 10 million people play it but 70% of them only played it for an hour, how do you gauge if that game is a success or not?

Maybe next gen they'll actually have their shit together and will have a lot of "original" content to offer. We'll see.

 

[Negotiator101]

Could be if there is some communication issues between the two studios (which is kinda possible with any outsourcing) and/or conflict in design goals. The other issue could be if its a custom/unique engine.

Do we know what engine Perfect Dark is supposed to be using?

Unreal I believe, its possible it will be Unreal 5 now.

 

[Shubh_C63]

Mildly excited to see whether main character will be tradationally attractive or 2020 attractive.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I thought it was announced with a CG trailer well before December 2020....Maybe I am high. :/

 

[reksveks]

I thought it was announced with a CG trailer well before December 2020....Maybe I am high. :/

Time has collapsed in the post covid world.

It was at TGA 2020.

 

[Coolwhhip]

Mildly excited to see whether main character will be tradationally attractive or 2020 attractive.

There was some leaked concept art

 

[Leo9]

To be honest I loved the X360 where MS seemed to have been hit with the creativity bug and released some nice new IP's but by the time Kinect came out things went south fast.
It feels like MS have been spinning it's wheels ever since then and have been more interested in buying studios and setting up Gamepass rather than actually focusing on game development. Just shitting out a Halo, Gears and Forza game every so often. When did Kinect come out, in 2010? So it's taken them 11 years and their games are either still in development hell or (my personal opinion) are cheap to make online team focused like Grounded, State of Decay, Sea of Thieves or Bleeding Edge.

And I'm emphasizing those 4 games above because with their first party focus on Gamepass, I honestly believe that is how the majority of their games are going to be made. Yes, they seem to be making millions of dollars through gamepass but they need to have some sort of logistics to show if each specific game is successful on the Gamepass platform. Game costs X amount of dollars and Y amount of people play it, if Y amount of people play it do you equate that to retail sales and does that number equal profit?
What if a game costs 150 million to make but only 2 million play it on Gamepass, retail wise it hasn't made it's money back. Or maybe 10 million people play it but 70% of them only played it for an hour, how do you gauge if that game is a success or not?

Maybe next gen they'll actually have their shit together and will have a lot of "original" content to offer. We'll see.

Hilarious.
What are you going to say when games like Fable, Avowed, ToW2, Hellblade 2, Starfield, Perfect Dark etc are out? All big budget single player titles coming in the next 2-3 years max.
But yeah, let's focus on Bleading Edge and Grounded, a couple of tiny projects developed by 15-20 people.

 

[Solidsnake_1]

Wait a minute wasn’t The Initiative an AAAAAAAAA studio?

 

[Chukhopops]

To be honest I loved the X360 where MS seemed to have been hit with the creativity bug and released some nice new IP's but by the time Kinect came out things went south fast.
It feels like MS have been spinning it's wheels ever since then and have been more interested in buying studios and setting up Gamepass rather than actually focusing on game development. Just shitting out a Halo, Gears and Forza game every so often. When did Kinect come out, in 2010? So it's taken them 11 years and their games are either still in development hell or (my personal opinion) are cheap to make online team focused like Grounded, State of Decay, Sea of Thieves or Bleeding Edge.

And I'm emphasizing those 4 games above because with their first party focus on Gamepass, I honestly believe that is how the majority of their games are going to be made. Yes, they seem to be making millions of dollars through gamepass but they need to have some sort of logistics to show if each specific game is successful on the Gamepass platform. Game costs X amount of dollars and Y amount of people play it, if Y amount of people play it do you equate that to retail sales and does that number equal profit?
What if a game costs 150 million to make but only 2 million play it on Gamepass, retail wise it hasn't made it's money back. Or maybe 10 million people play it but 70% of them only played it for an hour, how do you gauge if that game is a success or not?

Maybe next gen they'll actually have their shit together and will have a lot of "original" content to offer. We'll see.

Thanks for the confirmation, now I know which category I can put your post in.

 

[Moses85]

I still think it's funny that Microsoft even thought this property was worth reviving. It was always a shit IP. Hell, Fable is a pretty mediocre IP, but it's gold compared to this.

Perfect Dark was only ever worth a damn when it was a reskinned Goldeneye, and that was over *twenty* years ago.

 

[M1chl]

Co-developing from 3rd party and MS is normal thing, just look how many studios co-developing Halo Infinite. It's just not announced like that.

 

[Jemm]

FWIW, The Initiative's goal is to stay "small and agile" (from 2019 article):

However, The Initiative also looks to set expectations going forward, claiming "staying small, and staying agile, will actually be our strength." Followed by words from Gallagher, the studio lead states "the bar is high" and "the challenge for us is making sure we deliver on those expectations." It indicates The Initiative is starting small for its early projects, leveraging a tight team focused on innovation – not scale.

Source: Xbox Game Studios 'The Initiative' talks 'staying small, staying agile'

Which means, they always intended to outsource/co-develop with other studios.

 

[Chukhopops]

I still think it's funny that Microsoft even thought this property was worth reviving. It was always a shit IP. Hell, Fable is a pretty mediocre IP, but it's gold compared to this.

Perfect Dark was only ever worth a damn when it was a reskinned Goldeneye, and that was over *twenty* years ago.

Perfect Dark is just the highest rated console FPS of all time, sitting at the Pantheon of the best console ever made, between Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. It was absolutely revolutionary for 2000 when it came out.

 

[Outrunner]

Curious spending 7.5B buying an entire publisher to have "talent in house" and still having to hire another AAA studio, while on early development, to make their first party game for them.

 

[Dick Jones]

Co-developing from 3rd party and MS is normal thing, just look how many studios co-developing Halo Infinite. It's just not announced like that.

Who would want to admit to birthing Craig? Its probably in the contract after the July 2020 showing to not disclose what third parties are helping with Halo...to protect third parties.

 

[PropellerEar]

Perfect Dark is just the highest rated console FPS of all time, sitting at the Pantheon of the best console ever made, between Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. It was absolutely revolutionary for 2000 when it came out.

 

[Yoboman]

Isn't this the developer that we got years of hype as a big new AAA dev for Microsoft including many, many LinkedIn stalker posts about Sony devs and animators going over there?

And now this is expected that they'd need help?

You couldn't make it up if you tried

 

[M1chl]

Who would want to admit to birthing Craig? Its probably in the contract after the July 2020 showing to not disclose what third parties are helping with Halo...to protect third parties.

If I remember it correctly, 3rd parties jumped there after Craig. Like Sabre Studios.

But co-developing is pretty normal, we got helped from Nixxes, Dumbuster Studios (past Crytek guys, on the top of it from publisher itself, so make sense), Hangar 13. It's all in credits. KC has none of it's model outsourced to China, India. Which is industry standard, all in house. Help was mainly technical. But yeah other studios were involved.

 

[reksveks]

FWIW, The Initiative's goal is to stay "small and agile" (from 2019 article):

Source: Xbox Game Studios 'The Initiative' talks 'staying small, staying agile'

Which means, they always intended to outsource/co-develop with other studios.

Didn't see this article before, I would be interested to see their open listings.

 

[Yoboman]

Eh it was shown off as a demo at the E3 before PS4 released i'm sure of it. It had tons of zombies and they were attacking like a wood mill in the countryside.
I'll see if i can find the vid.

EDIT. Yeah i checked their 2013 conference and didnt find anything. This is so weird as i also cant find the vid i meant. It had like a generic character, not the final character used in the finishd game, and he was like on the roof and zombies were flowing into the woodmill etc.
It must of just been some tech demo or somehting.

 

[Outrunner]

Isn't this the developer that we got years of hype as a big new AAA dev for Microsoft including many, many LinkedIn stalker posts about Sony devs and animators going over there?

And now this is expected that they'd need help?

You couldn't make it up if you tried

Yeah, apparently is absolutely normal and on the same level as outsourcing studios for assets.

 

[Chukhopops]

Just bringing some facts here sorry!

I feel sorry for people who did not enjoy those golden years of couch multiplayer games because they were either too young to play them or too insufferable to have friends.

 

[Dick Jones]

If I remember it correctly, 3rd parties jumped there after Craig. Like Sabre Studios.

But co-developing is pretty normal, we got helped from Nixxes, Dumbuster Studios (past Crytek guys, on the top of it from publisher itself, so make sense), Hangar 13. It's all in credits. KC has none of it's model outsourced to China, India. Which is industry standard, all in house. Help was mainly technical. But yeah other studios were involved.

It was more shitting on Bonnie Ross and the rest of 343 than anything else. I'm glad others have taken over control so hopefully the 18 months has fixed some of the issues.

 

[PropellerEar]

Just bringing some facts here sorry!

I feel sorry for people who did not enjoy those golden years of couch multiplayer games because they were either too young to play them or too insufferable to have friends.

Weak, that's such a millennial game.
Boomer/Gen-X or GTFO!

 

[sol_bad]

Hilarious.
What are you going to say when games like Fable, Avowed, ToW2, Hellblade 2, Starfield, Perfect Dark etc are out? All big budget single player titles coming in the next 2-3 years max.
But yeah, let's focus on Bleading Edge and Grounded, a couple of tiny projects developed by 15-20 people.

I am generally interested in Hellblade 2 and Fable but time will tell if they'll release within 2-3 years. Starfield I have no faith in after the last Fallout game. Not sure what ToW2 is.

 

[Riky]

Curious spending 7.5B buying an entire publisher to have "talent in house" and still having to hire another AAA studio, while on early development, to make their first party game for them.

Maybe the Zenimax studios have some other games to work on.

 

[Riky]

Just bringing some facts here sorry!

I feel sorry for people who did not enjoy those golden years of couch multiplayer games because they were either too young to play them or too insufferable to have friends.

It is one of the greatest games of all time still and at the time was a pretty incredible achievement.
Zero wasn't in the same league but was good online, enjoyed that multiplayer.

 

[Heisenberg007]

So if you dont announce you are working with someone on a project you arent co-developing, if you announce then you are?
Okay.
I wont be discussing it further as I see no point.
Transparency is a bad thing in the games industry it seems.

lol. They are partners co-developing the game now. That's literally what they themselves said when they announced it. If you say otherwise (that it's a normal outsource job), you gotta prove it.

 

[Silent Viper]

Why people come up with conspiracy theories with every Xbox news?

Initiative was formed in 2018 officially. Perfect dark was announced last 2020 VGAs.

Team is around 100 which is not enough for AAA and development time for most AAA games are 5 to 6 years when building from scratch.

If Darren called people from his old studios then how its a bad thing? As gamers we intersted in end product not how its made.

Coliation took help of Splash Damage with Gears UE and 4. 343 took help from Saber and CA with Halo MCC and 5. Its not first time MS took helped from other 3rd party studios. This time Darren Gallagher pulled his old studios people, so people coming up with conspiracy theories.

Also people care about Chinese labour who makes your PS and Xbox in Chinese factory? No you care about end product that you bought not people working on it.

 

[kuncol02]

Why does every xbox exclusive seem to be in development hell?

Why every XBox thread is full of trolls like you?

 

[oldergamer]

I like how they fail to mention they also worked on Avengers, lols.

That was the team in montreal. Not the same team. Also show a publisher that hasnt made a bad game

 

[Thirty7ven]

Whoa now this is interesting. So many people were trying to make it look easy, pretending The Initiative was already a huge studio and now look at that. Outsourcing an actual big studio!

 

[Heisenberg007]

yep u wrote it already and you were and are wrong
The initiative studio alone literally couldn't make any AAA game . Period. they needed always to outsource ... when the game went into full production. The good / new thing is that they took a full study to do it. And that they are probably finally in full production ... just because don't you hire hundreds of people paying them daily ... because you're bored.

Not true. Most studios make games alone, with simple outsourcing for assets if and when needed. They rarely bring in other studios co-developers. There are dozens of support studios out there that literally specialize in outsourced work.

And The Initiative was literally built to make a AAA game. Everything -- from project planning to hiring -- was done to achieve that goal. To say that they couldn't make a AAA game alone (without roping in another studio as a co-developer) is an insult to that vision and efforts.

 

[oldergamer]

Sony fans are shitting up this thread with sony studio discussion.

There was also a rumor last e3 that io was possibly purchased by MS.
Actually they arent part of CD anymore

 

[ParaSeoul]

Why every XBox thread is full of trolls like you?

How is it trolling? Perfect Dark.
Fable.
Starfield.
Unavowed.
All announced way too soon,you'd think publishers would know not to do this anymore.

 

[reksveks]

That was the team in montreal. Not the same team. Also show a publisher that hasnt made a bad game

Is this the Texas team?

 

[Calverz]

I think davidjaffe knows more about Xbox 1st party studio management than he is letting on. What’s this about photos??

 

[Riky]

Hopefully get the game in 2024 now it has such a large team.

2021 Halo Infinite, Forza Horizon 5
2022 Starfield, Forza Motorsport
2023 Fable, Gears Of War, Avowed
2024 Perfect Dark, Elder Scrolls VI

Looks good to me.

 

[oldergamer]

Is this the Texas team?

I doubt it. As that team is new and hiring.

 

[Loope]

Early development? WTF have they been doing at Initiative for past 3 years?



Welcome to Microsoft's studio management.

You should apply to MS and show those incompetents how it's done.

 

[Three]

I don't have any confidence in xbox development teams apart from playground games, I haven't for a long time.

Even turn 10 are now dragging their feet.

I don't think they're dragging their feet. I think they just have less support and pressure from MS nowadays. The big honchos already have their racing game and it seems Motorsport is sidelined for now.