I'll probably break, but I would like to know too. Tired of the industry bait and switch.
I've played and beaten Demons and Dark Souls and am even playing through Dark Souls again now just because I'm so excited for a new one, but as consumers we simply shouldn't allow these companies to preview content to us and then switch it at the last minute without telling anyone and still expect us to be mindless shills for the thing we love. Which many are doing.
I'm sure it's overblown, but after Wainwright/Doritosgate/years of industry shadiness, don't we as consumers deserve at least honesty? We should be demanding it.
I don't even expect it to be fixed, just be honest with me. Because I love you doesn't mean I'm an idiot.
I'm with you. Just cannot unsee at this moment. After seeing the demo build, the retail version seems so flat. It's just sad to see that comparison. As for the mirror knight boss, whatever is happening there with the light is just weird and hard to understand, because it switches between 2 completely different light setups.
The overall brightness of the environments and the green tint (or blue for that matter as I've seen in a screenshot of a
mummy knight
) reminds me of some unsuccessful use of day-for-night technique (where you shoot during the day and you tone it down in post and add a blue/green colour to it). This technique can also be very successful, but I haven't seen any exterior night as eerie as Darkroot Garden. Maybe I'm wrong as I've only seen a couple of screenshots.
Anyway...this is an example of an unsuccessful day-for-night scene (from a very good movie though):
At first sight the Mirror Knight Fight doesnt look that different, until you start looking at it more closely, dissapointment ahead.
1. Look at the weird Green hue in the stone in the Retail
2. Skybox is completely missing from retail, Demo has a beautiful cloudy sky
3. When the boss lands that jump, the Demo shows an awesome splash of water, missing from retail
4. The boss reflections are toned way down in the Retail version
5. When there is lightning, in the Demo version your characters gets showered with light, in the retail its still there but super toned down.
As someone who has been looking forward to this game ever since I beat Demon Souls and Dark Souls in 2013, I am extremely disheartened right now. Not like this, FROM, not like this....
Let me preface the rest of this post by saying I am not some random who came in here to talk shit about a game they really had no intentions of buying any way. I was hyped for this game, I couldn't wait. With all that all said, I am not buying this game.
Let me elaborate as to why in a few points:
1. As a consumer, I do not like to be fucking lied to and deceived. Period. The idea that a company thinks they can try and sell me one thing and then give me something else and I'll buy it any way is a complete slap in the face. I will not abide that shit.
2. I don't give a fuck about dark Souls having sub-par graphics or just being graphically mid-tier like DS1. I genuinely don't care. But don't try and sell me one thing and then give me something else. If DSII looked the way it does now at all those E3 events and media promotions I would still be ready and willing to drop dollars on this bad boy, no questions asked. But... if you're selling me a steak with a side of cut fries through your advertising, and I order that off the menu, then I expect to receive steak and fries. Don't come out of that kitchen with a ham sandwich on wheat-bread and a fun size bag of chips. I LIKE ham on wheat and a bag of chips. I'm totally content with that as a meal. However, that isn't what you advertised to me on that menu and it isn't what I was ready and willing to pay for.
3. I don't like having my fandom being taken advantage of. Through Demon/darksouls1 I have become a genuine fan. Every time I get a chance to talk about Dark Souls in any video game related conversation in my personal life it's always a great feeling. The more people know about this series the better is how I see it. It's especially great when you meet a fellow DS fan and geek out together.
What FROM has done here is take advantage of people who they know will buy their shit no matter what they do (just look at this thread) because they love this series so much, such as pretending their game looks a certain way for a very long time and then revealing to people at the last minute that it was all horseshit, knowing full well it will sell regardless because of the good will and word of mouth they have garnered over the years. That's just fucked.
4. Giving FROM a pass or purchasing this game means you're OK with companies stringing you along with bullshit false advertising. You're living proof that this type of tactic is an affective marketing strategy. It's your money, sure, but supporting it only gives companies more incentive to do it again.
I want to make this crystal fucking clear to the people who will defend FROM and this series to the death no matter what they do, this is NOT about graphical quality, this is about me as a consumer being lied to and a company trying to take advantage of my fandom. It's wrong. I will not stand for it.
There, I said my peace on the matter.
Don't bring up the PC version. My comp can't run it and I'm not upgrading.
You can be upset that the graphics were degraded, I can completely understand that. However, this whole idea that FromSoftware spent hours and hours creating this game with better graphics to mislead people is pretty silly.
I'm sure FromSoftware wanted to deliver the game with the amazing graphics that we saw in the early footage - but sacrifices had to be made. Their ambitions grew beyond what was reasonable and wouldn't work properly on the hardware they were developing for. It's simple as that.
You can be upset. You can be let down. I'm kinda bummed out myself. But, this idea that FromSoftware intentionally put all of this work into something to deceive their fans is absolute nonsense. Especially when the reason that people love these games has nothing to do with cutting edge graphics in the first place.
Indeed. That definitely seems to suggest that it was at least partly adjusted because of developer decisions changing in regards to how much they wanted to restrict shields, lighting, etc.
Even two areas that are pitch black is twice as many as Dark Souls. Maybe there's more than two? I guess we'll see soon.
Makes me think PC will have similar adjustments to the lighting, but keep the improved textures.
You can be upset. You can be let down. I'm kinda bummed out myself. But, this idea that FromSoftware intentionally put all of this work into something to deceive their fans is absolute nonsense. Especially when the reason that people love these games has nothing to do with cutting edge graphics in the first place.
Considering the press demos have been a separate branch of development that look and run better, yeah, it's intentional deception. They should have shown the actual game, not a tech demo.
Yeah like someone mentioned above, you're just used to the mechanics. Nothing has changed in Souls combat since Demon's really so you know how to get the better of most enemies before even attempting
I'm curious to see how new players to the series do in the game and how difficult they think it is.
Having to use the Torch for every area would be annoying as hell. But I would like a few Tomb of the Giants type of areas at least. From what I've heard the dungeons are still really bright and visible without the need to a torch anyway
What the torch combat did was cast crazy shadows everywhere that made you feel like there were enemies popping up when there weren't. It kept you alert and on your toes and you could mistake real enemies for shadows sometimes. That dynamic seems to be gone now
The Dark Souls defense force is getting ridiculous...
How can you just chalk this up as "it's just a change in art direction"?
Devs should be called out on this bullshit, not patted on the back.
With that said, I'm still going to get the game and will enjoy it regardless.
I don't play Dark Souls for the graphics and wonderful lighting, that's for sure.
You can be upset that the graphics were degraded, I can completely understand that. However, this whole idea that FromSoftware spent hours and hours creating this game with better graphics to mislead people is pretty silly.
I'm sure FromSoftware wanted to deliver the game with the amazing graphics that we saw in the early footage - but sacrifices had to be made. Their ambitions grew beyond what was reasonable and wouldn't work properly on the hardware they were developing for. It's simple as that.
You can be upset. You can be let down. I'm kinda bummed out myself. But, this idea that FromSoftware intentionally put all of this work into something to deceive their fans is absolute nonsense. Especially when the reason that people love these games has nothing to do with cutting edge graphics in the first place.
They intentionally put a lot of work into making a version that would never exist on previous-gen consoles. I guarantee we'll see a definitive edition, and that stings more than anything.
Considering the press demos have been a separate branch of development that look and run better, yeah, it's intentional deception. They should have shown the actual game, not a tech demo.
Or even if they assumed they could get that tech demo to work as retail and then realized they couldn't, they need to disclose that. Otherwise it's false advertising.
Unfortunately for us:
...advertisers still find ways to deceive consumers in ways that are legal, or technically illegal but unenforceable.
Honestly its always been like this, if anything it used to be worse back in the day.
I dont think FROM did this on purpose, they must have been given a huge budget for the Demo to impress Journos.
Think about it this way.
You have a word document, its all typed up, at one point, your boss says, I want page 100 through 200 in a separate file.
Then you get assigned to prettify this document because your boss wants to impress someone with it, other people keep work on the original document while you are working by yourself on the slice, you spend tons of hours into that small part of the whole document.
Eventually putting all those changes back into the master document is a nightmare and would look completely out of place with the rest of the document so it never makes it back, but it doesnt matter, because you impressed everyone with your curated slice.
It's hard to say, I mean not that Demon's Souls ever looked better than any of this, but I get the feeling stuff wasn't cut out of that so much so the way I look at it is different.
I think it's a little of both. Supposedly people played sections looking closer to the preview builds on PS3 in the beta.
So either there was some new technical limitation that wasn't evident in the beta that became a problem when finalizing the game, or they changed it for gameplay reasons because they didn't think the game should have that much darkness. Or, both (I think it's both).
Mainly because even back then in the older build, it still looked pretty rough at times. It was only when it got into dark shadowy specular territory or areas that it really shined (pardon the pun). In some areas of the older game it still looked a bit fuzzy or crappy texture wise and some people complained back then too about it but now the retail build is even worse? Kinda sad
I think it's a little of both. Supposedly people played sections looking closer to the preview builds on PS3 in the beta.
So either there was some new technical limitation that wasn't evident in the beta that became a problem when finalizing the game, or they changed it for gameplay reasons because they didn't think the game should have that much darkness. Or, both (I think it's both).
It's likely not true. The whole lighting system has been downgraded so it makes sense that the torches were reduced as a result rather than it being a game mechanic thing. If it was a design decision, they wouldn't have so many sconces as people who've played the game mentioned.
Looking at the retail areas from pics and videos, it almost looks like some parts aren't lit at all. Like they were supposed to be pitch dark, but when they scrapped that they just upped the overall ambient light and didn't bother to place torches or anything.
Looking at the retail areas from pics and videos, it almost looks like some parts aren't lit at all. Like they were supposed to be pitch dark, but when they scrapped that they just upped the overall ambient light and didn't bother to place torches or anything.
Looking at the retail areas from pics and videos, it almost looks like some parts aren't lit at all. Like they were supposed to be pitch dark, but when they scrapped that they just upped the overall ambient light and didn't bother to place torches or anything.
I wish the Demo build did not exist, as of right now its just a dream of what could have been, thats how it could have looked.
Its so obvious that the whole game was never going to look like that, it was literally a Tech demo of how much they could decorate the game with their new tech, dont know if I should blame them, just taking cues from the Big publishers.
Here are all the comparison GIFs so far. Left is DEMO, Right is RETAIL
To be honest, the retail version looks way better than I was expecting after the downgrade news broke. It obviously doesn't excuse From from leading us on in the first place (intentional or not), and I will be more cautious in buying from them in the future, but for now I'm relieved the game looks as 'good' as it does.
It's funny, when people were discussing the downgrade in the OT, some guys there were saying those people weren't real fans, shouldn't care about graphics, or make a new thread to talk about it and leave the OT alone.
Then they make a new thread only to discuss this, and people still come here just to say the same stuff.
You don't care about the downgrade, don't think it's bad at all and people who care are idiots? Fine, but this is a thread about the downgrade, and I talk from experience that entering threads just to say you don't give a shit about the subject is not very welcome.
It's funny, when people were discussing the downgrade in the OT, some guys there were saying those people weren't real fans, shouldn't care about graphics, or make a new thread to talk about it and leave the OT alone.
Then they make a new thread only to discuss this, and people still come here just to say the same stuff.
You don't care about the downgrade, don't think it's bad at all and people who care are idiots? Fine, but this is a thread about the downgrade, and I talk from experience that entering threads just to say you don't give a shit about the subject is not very welcome.
You can be upset that the graphics were degraded, I can completely understand that. However, this whole idea that FromSoftware spent hours and hours creating this game with better graphics to mislead people is pretty silly.
I'm sure FromSoftware wanted to deliver the game with the amazing graphics that we saw in the early footage - but sacrifices had to be made. Their ambitions grew beyond what was reasonable and wouldn't work properly on the hardware they were developing for. It's simple as that.
You can be upset. You can be let down. I'm kinda bummed out myself. But, this idea that FromSoftware intentionally put all of this work into something to deceive their fans is absolute nonsense. Especially when the reason that people love these games has nothing to do with cutting edge graphics in the first place.
They put the demo out in the public sphere as their showcase. Intentional or not, it's a bait and switch in the consumer's eyes. If they couldn't match their demo with a reasonable retail release, it would be a huge mistake to intimate that you could do it. You have to manage expectations rather than point at "A" and then deliver "B."
I work at a software firm, and we have to be very clear with prospective clients about the capabilities of our tools upfront. We don't lie and say, "Yes, it can do everything!" If we did, we would just get fucked in the development and then support stage.
Case in point, From put that demo out there, presumably believing that would be in the final product. Now they have to address the fact that the final product does not deliver it. Regardless of intentions, they have to address an issue of their very own creation.
Post-purchase rationalization, also known as Buyer's Stockholm Syndrome, is a cognitive bias whereby someone who has purchased an expensive product or service overlooks any faults or defects in order to justify their purchase. It is a special case of choice-supportive bias.
Expensive purchases often involve a lot of careful research and deliberation, and many consumers will often refuse to admit that their decision was made in poor judgement. Many purchasing decisions are made emotionally, based on factors such as brand-loyalty and advertising, and so are often rationalized retrospectively in an attempt to justify the choice.
I'm very familiar with the term, you see it many times with Alienware products or Headsets, where you have spent a great deal of money on a poor product.
I'm very familiar with the term, you see it many times with Alienware products or Headsets, where you have spent a great deal of money on a poor product.
I have to stand it every time I criticize the awfully uncomfortable Sony Elite headset in another forum I participate. Someone asks what people think about it, I say what I like and what I dislike about it, and it's my fault the headset is uncomfortable.
Reading what I wrote again, I think it could be easy to read it as me saying that there's absolutely no dark places in the game, which isn't true.
My first statement was talking about how the pre-release push seemed to be toward a game that would require the need of torches all throughout the game (at least, that was always the impression that I walked away from). And that, in the final game, the actual need for them is so small that, overall, they feel more like a feature that was intended yet never fully utilized (but not necessarily never existent). So, I was taking about the overall concept, not the exact fact of if there is now 0 or more than 0 times that you need to use a torch.
It kind of reminds me of the hunting aspect of the new Tomb Raider. Pre-release, hunting seemed like this major mechanic in the game. And then, when I played, it still existed, but felt like it had originally intended to be a much bigger part of the game but then got neutered at some point.
And I could only give one direct example of where I knew for certain things had changed between pre- and post-release for DS2, because that was the only part I had experienced from preview events where I knew for certain I has to use a torch before.
When is ENB commenting on this mess then. I thought it was going to be after the review embargo was up and thats well up.
Even just so much as a comment if the PC version looks dramatically different because this shit is really souring me on Souls as a whole now we're back into overbearing PR silence keeping me from making an informed decision.
Reading what I wrote again, I think it could be easy to read it as me saying that there's absolutely no dark places in the game, which isn't true.
My first statement was talking about how the pre-release push seemed to be toward a game that would require the need of torches all throughout the game (at least, that was always the impression that I walked away from). And that, in the final game, the actual need for them is so small that, overall, they feel more like a feature that was intended yet never fully utilized (but not necessarily never existent). So, I was taking about the overall concept, not the exact fact of if there is now 0 or more than 0 times that you need to use a torch.
It kind of reminds me of the hunting aspect of the new Tomb Raider. Pre-release, hunting seemed like this major mechanic in the game. And then, when I played, it still existed, but felt like it had originally intended to be a much bigger part of the game but then got neutered at some point.
And I could only give one direct example of where I knew for certain things had changed between pre- and post-release for DS2, because that was the only part I had experienced from preview events where I knew for certain I has to use a torch before.
Started playing this an hour ago on PS3, just got to Majula.
I'm really bothered by the whole torch business because it's clearly even more central to the game then I thought it was going to be. The ENTIRE starter/tutorial area is built around teaching you the value of using the torch and lighting sconces.
I didn't know you had a time limit on torch usage either, man, it really WOULD have given the game a survival horror feel. I'm seriously disappointed. All your ressources seem to be limited by design, including the amount of soul grinding/item farming you can do and amount of items you can purchase.
First side area that I check in Majula has a sconce right before the entrance, that place is supposed to be fucking pitch black with sconces that you permenantly light up on your first journey in there. This change is GIGANTIC, if we ever see a version of the game with the original lighting engine in place people will realize just how big of a deal this is.
I'm less than an hour in and the game feels heavily compromised already. The framerate is also really poor, Dragon's Dogma on PS3 is a very apt comparison.
Regardless, I'm enjoying the game and I don't necessarily regret buying it, but it's a truly sad state of affairs. One of the central core mechanics of the game has been rendered obsolete AND it makes alot of rooms/environments ugly as hell.
I'm even more disappointed because I can see just how special and unique this mechanic would have made the game feel compared to previous Souls games. It would have been fucking awesome! Sure some people wouldn't like it but whatever, the darkness was clearly an intrinsic part of the ENTIRE design.
If it's a technical issue then it's a real shame but we could atleast see the PC version bring back the game to its full potential. If it's a last minute backtrack based on feedback then they fucking blew it hardcore. Stick to your guns and if any issues arise find more creative solutions than gimping the entire experience.
Reading what I wrote again, I think it could be easy to read it as me saying that there's absolutely no dark places in the game, which isn't true.
My first statement was talking about how the pre-release push seemed to be toward a game that would require the need of torches all throughout the game (at least, that was always the impression that I walked away from). And that, in the final game, the actual need for them is so small that, overall, they feel more like a feature that was intended yet never fully utilized (but not necessarily never existent). So, I was taking about the overall concept, not the exact fact of if there is now 0 or more than 0 times that you need to use a torch.
It kind of reminds me of the hunting aspect of the new Tomb Raider. Pre-release, hunting seemed like this major mechanic in the game. And then, when I played, it still existed, but felt like it had originally intended to be a much bigger part of the game but then got neutered at some point.
And I could only give one direct example of where I knew for certain things had changed between pre- and post-release for DS2, because that was the only part I had experienced from preview events where I knew for certain I has to use a torch before.
There's the torch mechanic, then there's the lighting issue (and potentially textures, animations and more?) Seems people confusing them.
I know I'm supposed to be content with mods and Sweetfx or ENB or whatever, but that's not good enough. Bandaids, not solutions. Not sure why so many people think a graphics mod can replace a lighting engine.
Started playing this an hour ago on PS3, just got to Majula.
I'm really bothered by the whole torch business because it's clearly even more central to the game then I thought it was going to be. The ENTIRE starter/tutorial area is built around teaching you the value of using the torch and lighting sconces.
I didn't know you had a time limit on torch usage either, man, it really WOULD have given the game a survival horror feel. I'm seriously disappointed. All your ressources seem to be limited by design, including the amount of soul grinding/item farming you can do and amount of items you can purchase.
First side area that I check in Majula has a sconce right before the entrance, that place is supposed to be fucking pitch black with sconces that you permenantly light up on your first journey in there. This change is GIGANTIC, if we ever see a version of the game with the original lighting engine in place people will realize just how big of a deal this is.
I'm less than an hour in and the game feels heavily compromised already. The framerate is also really poor, Dragon's Dogma on PS3 is a very apt comparison.
Regardless, I'm enjoying the game and I don't necessarily regret buying it, but it's a truly sad state of affairs. One of the central core mechanics of the game has been rendered obsolete AND it makes alot of rooms/environments ugly as hell.
I'm even more disappointed because I can see just how special and unique this mechanic would have made the game feel compared to previous Souls games. It would have been fucking awesome! Sure some people wouldn't like it but whatever, the darkness was clearly an intrinsic part of the ENTIRE design.
If it's a technical issue then it's a real shame but we could atleast see the PC version bring back the game to its full potential. If it's a last minute backtrack based on feedback then they fucking blew it hardcore. Stick to your guns and if any issues arise find more creative solutions than gimping the entire experience.
