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[RadioHeadAche]

I became engrossed in Heavy Rain and I actually cared about the characters. That made the whole game very intense and captivating, and I have never experienced anything like that with any game prior. It's definitely one of my favorite games from this generation.

 

[Ellis Kim]

I think the hate is there just because lots of people want to think that Heavy Rain is a second coming of Jesus for video game industry. I even saw comments that stated HR revolutionized/ressurected Point & Click adventure games; or comments that stated that you have to be emotionally mature to fully appreciate the game, that HR story is on par with the bests movie thrillers etc. Which, of course, is bullshit.

The game is fine, but nothing more. The story is weak and full of plot holes and stupidity, and the game itself is full of unnecessary fillers.

I'd like to ask what you mean by "unnecessary fillers."

If by that you're referring to mundane tasks, I'd like to refer you to my post above. If you mean segments of story that you subjectively feel to have marred pacing, then that's your opinion and I respect that.

 

[nib95]

David Cage has gone on the record saying brushing your character's teeth is in the game because it helps build a connection between him and the player. This is admittance to the attempted creation of Stockholm syndrome on Cage's part. He believes fluffing the game out with mundane events is an acceptable means of creating a bond with fictional characters.

It may or may not work, but it is a very crude and boring means of establishing characters. David Cage still has a lot to learn, and I'm not sure he'll ever get it right. Fortunately L.A. Noire looks to be executing on a similar set of ideas in the same console space at a much higher level. Maybe Cage can crib enough from that to make something passable next time around.

But he is right though. Not all games have to be at a Transformers level of entertainment. You can have the Collaterals and No Country for Old Men's too. It's ok to have the slow moving segments, so long as they give you a sense of reality and pacing, the way they do with the segments you described from Heavy Rain.

Brushing your teeth, shaving, showering etc, just draws you closer to that feeling of actually playing the life of a real individual. Experiencing his daily life, his house, his work, his family. If you didn't do those things, and were just plonked in his house then plonked back out, I don't think you'd have the same connection with the character or sense of reality. So yea, David Cage > You.

 

[StealthGoblin]

That tells me a few things: When he says that they "created the genre," he's not referring to interactive storytelling. He's very specifically thinking of all of the thinking and design that went into their gameplay model, and he sees the gameplay model as the genre. Everything from emulating the character's actions and stress (i.e. contorting your fingers all over the controller while climbing up a muddy hill, or carefully moving through a jungle of electric wires), to using cinematic narrative techniques like having you, the player, do incredibly mundane things like closing a fridge, brushing your teeth, drinking orange juice, in order to ground yourself and the character on a personal, relatable level.

We have a winner. Cage had even made remarks with regards to this before the games release. He said Heavy Rain could be used as a template. Not the story, but the way in which the story and the 'game' were woven together.

Farenheit made a good start, I think, on having players become aware of how their character was feeling, even if it was represented via little icons that would appear on screen to tell you how much of an increase/decrease in stress your character just felt. Heavy Rain took that a step further by having the choices going through your characters head circle the character in real time and by having the representation of those choices shake etc if the characters metal state changed.

Heavy Rain is by no means perfect, but I think its an important evolutionary step as a template for creating more story driven interactive gameplay.

 

[Vorg]

Haven´t played heavy rain, but farenheit was fucking terrible. If only I knew what the hell is going on most of the time.

 

[Ellis Kim]

David Cage has gone on the record saying brushing your character's teeth is in the game because it helps build a connection between him and the player. This is admittance to the attempted creation of Stockholm syndrome on Cage's part. He believes fluffing the game out with mundane events is an acceptable means of creating a bond with fictional characters.

It may or may not work, but it is a very crude and boring means of establishing characters. David Cage still has a lot to learn, and I'm not sure he'll ever get it right. Fortunately L.A. Noire looks to be executing on a similar set of ideas in the same console space at a much higher level. Maybe Cage can crib enough from that to make something passable next time around.

But he is right though. Not all games have to be at a Transformers level of entertainment. You can have the Collaterals and No Country for Old Men's too. It's ok to have the slow moving segments, so long as they give you a sense of reality and pacing, the way they do with the segments you described from Heavy Rain.

Brushing your teeth, shaving, showering etc, just draws you closer to that feeling of actually playing the life of a real individual. Experiencing his daily life, his house, his work, his family. If you didn't do those things, and were just plonked in his house then plonked back out, I don't think you'd have the same connection with the character or sense of reality. So yea, David Cage > You.

This, so much.

I'd also like to reiterate that Swery of Deadly Premonition fame also expressed the same narrative design techniques at his GDC postmortem panel:

http://gdc.gamespot.com/story/63022...adly-premonition/?tag=latestheadlines;title;2

On the first point, Swery said games that players don't remember when they're not actively playing them are effectively dead. What game designers want to do is to make the barrier between the game and the player's own life fade away as much as they can. For instance, smokers who played Deadly Premonition frequently told Swery that when they saw York light up a cigarette in the game, they got a craving as well. Lots of little actions in the game, like eating, drinking, and shaving, may be superfluous to the story, but they link the players' daily routine to the game, causing them to be reminded of it as they go about their lives.

Its no accident that both Cage and Swery express this sentiment, and executed them in the way that they did in their respective games. Its also no accident that for players who found themselves incredibly engrossed in the game's world on a deep emotional level. Anyone, such as Dance in my Blood, who were completely oblivious to this sensation, found this aspect of the narrative experience to be lost on them, and its both sad and a pity that they missed out for it.

 

[UrbanRats]

Oh really.

Willing to stick with that statement?

Absolutely.
Maybe not the worst ever, but may i remind you:
• secret hobo society.
• AI race.
• mayan gods.
• sub-par matrix fight with a mayan dude.
• giant fleas.
• necrophilia.
• Roswell-like site.
• one of the dumbest and tucked on love story ever ("i love you" even if it's the second time you see the dude? Come on, i know you wanted the sex scene in, but man..).

All in one game.
Yeah Gears does have a uber shitty story, but at least it has a bit of coherence, with what is trying to achieve (dumb fun).

 

[PuppetMaster]

I really want another David Cage game

 

[Ellis Kim]

Absolutely.
Maybe not the worst ever, but may i remind you:
• secret hobo society.
• AI race.
• mayan gods.
• sub-par matrix fight with a mayan dude.
• giant fleas.
• necrophilia.
• Roswell-like site.
• one of the dumbest and tucked on love story ever ("i love you" even if it's the second time you see the dude? Come on, i know you wanted the sex scene in, but man..).

All in one game.
Yeah Gears does have a uber shitty story, but at least it has a bit of coherence, with what is trying to achieve (dumb fun).

The most amazing part of this post is that it actually validates Swery's own game design theory on how to make your game memorable.

Just for fun, and if you're so willing, I'd like to ask that you make a similar bullet point list for Gears of War.

 

[dimb]

But he is right though. Not all games have to be at a Transformers level of entertainment. You can have the Collaterals and No Country for Old Men's too. It's ok to have the slow moving segments, so long as they give you a sense of reality and pacing, the way they do with the segments you described from Heavy Rain.

Brushing your teeth, shaving, showering etc, just draws you closer to that feeling of actually playing the life of a real individual. Experiencing his daily life, his house, his work, his family. If you didn't do those things, and were just plonked in his house then plonked back out, I don't think you'd have the same connection with the character or sense of reality. So yea, David Cage > You.

You are purposefully obscuring my statement into something it is not.

I'm not talking about pace. At all. Games can be slow or fast, but every single story regardless of medium has to be deliberate. High School creative writing courses even understand this, and it's one of the first things taught to anyone dabbling in storytelling. Every second, every word, every action has to have meaning or else it isn't worth showing.

As a human being in a first-world culture I fucking know that Ethan Mars (hopefully) brushes his teeth and takes a shower. This doesn't build up his character, it's some pitiful attempt to make the puppets Cage bounces around on screen actually seem human.

Your point is invalidated even within the context of Heavy Rain. Certain characters like Shelby largely avoid the trapping of having to follow a daily routine and come out as stronger figures than Ethan. Real character building comes from interpersonal relationships, reactions to the world, and interpretations of that surrounding environment. These can be shown and actually be meaningful content that pushes the plot forward while solidifying characters. It is not a crazy concept. If you ever read a book where the first three chapters were the average day in the life of someone you would just drop the book. Video games get off on this shit and try to pass it off as "art" or something. It's disgusting.

David Cage doesn't know shit. He thought he would quit video games forever if Heavy Rain was poorly received. Fortunately he was on the better end of the Sony hypemachine, his game released in a time period that was otherwise relatively dry for games, and he hit in a genre that has few rivals.

 

[UrbanRats]

The most amazing part of this post is that it actually validates Swery's own game design theory on how to make your game memorable.

Just for fun, and if you're so willing, I'd like to ask that you make a similar bullet point list for Gears of War.

Ah, if your point is to say that Fahrenheit's story is memorable, i could not agree more.
Gears' on the other hand is flat and simple (kill the aliens).
Does that makes Fahreheit's a good one? I really don't think so, unless it was going for the non-sense comedy gnre.

EDIT: Moreover, that's why i'd rather suggest playing Fahrenheit, rather than Heavy Rain.
Fahrenheit it's a "so bad it's good" kinda deal, while Heavy Rain it's just boringly bad.

 

[Dead Man]

This, so much.

I'd also like to reiterate that Swery of Deadly Premonition fame also expressed the same narrative design techniques at his GDC postmortem panel:

http://gdc.gamespot.com/story/63022...adly-premonition/?tag=latestheadlines;title;2

What game designers want to do is to make the barrier between the game and the player's own life fade away as much as they can.

Can I just ask why they want to do this, and why he thinks all game designers want the same thing?

 

[Ellis Kim]

Ah, if your point is to say that Fahrenheit's story is memorable, i could not agree more.
Gears' on the other hand is flat and simple (kill the aliens).
Does that makes Fahreheit's a good one? I really don't think so, unless it was going for the non-sense comedy gnre.

EDIT: Moreover, that's why i'd rather suggest playing Fahrenheit, rather than Heavy Rain.
Fahrenheit it's a "so bad it's good" kinda deal, while Heavy Rain it's just boringly bad.

You could really tell that the first half of Indigo Prophecy, as its called here, really wanted to try being an engaging crime serial-killer mystery drama. Obviously, the second-half of the game's story undid any good will that the first half, and that's directly contributed to what Cage admitted himself as buckling to his own weakness in having the confidence to tell a serious story in a medium where aliens and impossible feats are the norm.

I wouldn't say that it has a great story, but its certainly not the worst, as you would like to believe.

ReEDIT: I'm going to have to disagree. The replay value in Heavy Rain is far greater than Fahrenheit could be, and its personally engaging on an emotional level for me and many others in this thread who has responded to the posts of hate.

I can't help but wonder if people who went into Heavy Rain and came out with "ugh, its boring" to simply be the type of gamer who doesn't realize when an extremely hyped game isn't their cup of tea, and can't leave it at that. You go in with the wrong mindset into any sort of entertainment experience, and you'll always leave with a bad taste in your mouth.

Can I just ask why they want to do this, and why he thinks all game designers want the same thing?

I think he's specifically referring to game designers who focus on engaging players in having the player identify with their character in games, not necessarily ALL game designers.

There are several schools of thought on the concept of immersion and how to achieve it, but most stop at simply at least being able to engage the player in a meaningful way, if they can't immerse them entirely. This is usually achieved by making the player character endearing to the player, whether its through great writing/acting, or performing actions that the player values, like badassery (for guys).

 

[Vampire On Titus]

Interactive Storytelling genre? I feel like that label for Heavy Rain is just the outcome, largely, of the gaming press's inability to call a spade a spade, combined with the Heavy Rain marketing effort to dissociate with a genre that incorrectly carries the stigma of being dead/ past it's prime.

It baffled me reading preview coverage, listening to podcasts, and reading reviews how so many people struggled to define "what Heavy Rain is" as if it was some crazy grandiose entirely innovative concept that had never been seen before. The only one member of the press who I can recall deviated from the farce of the "interactive storytelling" label PR message, was Shane Bettenhausen.

He called Heavy Rain what it is, it's a fucking Adventure game. Might not be point & click (more direct & gesture) but there's a high focus on story and dialog, examining environments and puzzle puzzle solving. Some people seem to forget amidst the QTE's of Heavy Rain, that puzzles even exist, even in this thread. They are there.

Off the top of my head I can remember: the puzzle where you have to figure out the right sequence of electrified gates to get through, the one where have to edit footage together or something in the ARI to find a new lead and the puzzle where you have to find all the items you recently touched and remove finger-prints. There's literally even a scene near the end of the game where you "Use Flower" on "Old Lady". It's a fucking adventure game.

So as far as Adventure games go, I'd say that Capcom or Telltale is certainly closer to owning it than Quantic Dream is. Especially considering Telltale's output of quality games.

 

[WickedLaharl]

Also, if being the "best" in story-telling allows you to pull shit off like this then something is wrong with this industry.

that's almost as bad as the edge maverick cryfest in SO4.

 

[nib95]

You are purposefully obscuring my statement into something it is not.

I'm not talking about pace. At all. Games can be slow or fast, but every single story regardless of medium has to be deliberate. High School creative writing courses even understand this, and it's one of the first things taught to anyone dabbling in storytelling. Every second, every word, every action has to have meaning or else it isn't worth showing.

As a human being in a first-world culture I fucking know that Ethan Mars (hopefully) brushes his teeth and takes a shower. This doesn't build up his character, it's some pitiful attempt to make the puppets Cage bounces around on screen actually seem human.

Your point is invalidated even within the context of Heavy Rain. Certain characters like Shelby largely avoid the trapping of having to follow a daily routine and come out as stronger figures than Ethan. Real character building comes from interpersonal relationships, reactions to the world, and interpretations of that surrounding environment. These can be shown and actually be meaningful content that pushes the plot forward while solidifying characters. It is not a crazy concept. If you ever read a book where the first three chapters were the average day in the life of someone you would just drop the book. Video games get off on this shit and try to pass it off as "art" or something. It's disgusting.

David Cage doesn't know shit. He thought he would quit video games forever if Heavy Rain was poorly received. Fortunately he was on the better end of the Sony hypemachine, his game released in a time period that was otherwise relatively dry for games, and he hit in a genre that has few rivals.

Oh lol. What am idiotic post. Guess all the awards and critical acclaim it's received, even so long after it's release are also because of Sony's "hypemachine" and the lack of other good games?

I think I've read enough to know any post from you on the game or gaming in general should be taken with a pinch of salt.


Also, you completely glossed on my original post which actually already counters your new one. The things mentioned, whilst they might not move the plot forward, do bring you closer to the character (well they did me) and offer a better sense of realism and that is what Cage mentioned. He never said anything about it moving the plot forward but about building a connection between the gamer and the character, and that's exactly what it does. Also, what to you IS meaningful? Why aren't the said things meaningful enough? Does every action have to be exciting in order to build a relationship with the character?

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

The most amazing part of this post is that it actually validates Swery's own game design theory on how to make your game memorable.

Just for fun, and if you're so willing, I'd like to ask that you make a similar bullet point list for Gears of War.

Did you even play Gears of War? Because its story is not shitty at all by action fiction standards. It does everything an action blockbuster is supposed to do - and nothing more, but that's not the point here.

Fahrenheit had a great premise and a brilliant beginning, but then it fell apart completely. And by the way, Fahrenheit is one of my all-time favorite games, despite its undeniable flaws, while Gears isn't.

 

[The Technomancer]

Read the actual article. That's not what he said.

Okay, so he's not being an ass, he's just being delusional. Got it.

 

[Ellis Kim]

Okay, so he's not being an ass, he's just being delusional. Got it.

Rather, I think he had a few drinks and let it rip when the dude asked him an obviously loaded question.

 

[TheOddOne]

Fucking hell. The guy had just won three awards for his game and was asked a question. Do people really expect him to just stand there and say nothing?

Maby he should have been more humble about how he feels he contributed to evolve interactive story telling. With this statement -- it comes off as -- he's invalidating all the other developers who create games. Heavy Rain execution is a intresting one, but it has its flaws. If you look at the broad spectrum of games, its hard to see HR as a top tier title to showcase storytelling.

 

[daycru]

This is gonna be one angry weirdo thread.

 

[Ushojax]

T Heavy Rain, despite its faults, is an incredible step towards innovating the story-driven interactive entertainment genre.

In what way is the game innovative? It takes the gameplay template of Fahrenheit and smothers it in a story that is both nonsensical in it's construction and amateurish in it's execution. At best, Heavy Rain showed others how not to tell a story in this medium. It was a bad episode of Without a Trace stretched out over a videogame. I suppose it showed that there is an audience for a seemingly 'adult' game that focuses on story, but I think the quality of the game will have put the majority of purchasers off buying similar titles in the future. It was a bold move to try to make a game like this, but then it was a bold move to try to make a movie like Waterworld. They were failed experiments and nothing more.

 

[fabricated backlash]

To be honest, I didn't enjoy Heavy Rain at all. To me the story was nothing worth mentioning, and the delivery from the actors was terrible at best. Not to mention that the animation was so wonky at times the supposed immersion was killed over and over again.

I guess I should be happy to hear that no one else than them is trying to pursue this kind of videogame design. I think it's great that games and the definition of games has broadened so much in the last years, but I also think its terrible how games try to emulate movies more and more instead of becoming an unique medium to tell stories with their own unique toolset to do so.

 

[Dabanton]

That's such a disappointing statement to hear anyone make, especially someone who loves videogames, and I'd like to believe that everyone here does. Heavy Rain, despite its faults, is an incredible step towards innovating the story-driven interactive entertainment genre.

The haters are coming out in droves here, and I can understand the problems some people had with the game, including the problems with the writing, and ESPECIALLY the fact that they used non-American actors to be Americans (outside of Shelby, who was pretty incredible). But like Jeff Canatta has said several times on Weekend Confirmed, Heavy Rain is a very important reference point, a benchmark, for modern videogames, and it'll be referred to for years to come, and not by any sort of mistake.

If you (and by you, I mean all of the haters in this thread, not just Ushojax) can't appreciate that fact, then I think the medium is lost on you.

On topic:

I think Cage had a few drinks when this guy "interviewed" him for this small piece.

I also find it VERY odd that the OP didn't include a quote in the OP.



That tells me a few things: When he says that they "created the genre," he's not referring to interactive storytelling. He's very specifically thinking of all of the thinking and design that went into their gameplay model, and he sees the gameplay model as the genre. Everything from emulating the character's actions and stress (i.e. contorting your fingers all over the controller while climbing up a muddy hill, or carefully moving through a jungle of electric wires), to using cinematic narrative techniques like having you, the player, do incredibly mundane things like closing a fridge, brushing your teeth, drinking orange juice, in order to ground yourself and the character on a personal, relatable level. This technique is also used and was explained as much by Swery at his recent GDC panel regarding the mundane quirks of his characters in Deadly Premonition.

The other thing this tells me is that he's still very much focused on addressing the adult, mature audience with future titles, which will follow a similar framework to Heavy Rain in terms of the gameplay model.

OP is a sensationalist for making this thread the way he did.


[/B]Oh really.

Willing to stick with that statement?

Please I know Gears is some whipping boy for bad storylines but it's miles ahead of what Heavy Rain offered at least it achieved what it set out to do deliver a 80's action movie flavour.

Heavy Rain achieved nada. It's story is abysmal let down by bad voice acting and implausible logic and for a game that's touts being a interactive story, voice work should be incredibly important, the game lost any seriousness it thought it had in the first 20 mins and didn't recover.

The best thing about Heavy rain was it's DLC 'The Taxidermist'. Was everything the main game was not tense,exciting and at points genuinely scary.

Also HR is neither 'mature' or 'adult'.

 

[Kafel]

sorry David, Shenmue is still the QTE king

 

[nib95]

In what way is the game innovative? It takes the gameplay template of Fahrenheit and smothers it in a story that is both nonsensical in it's construction and amateurish in it's execution. At best, Heavy Rain showed others how not to tell a story in this medium. It was a bad episode of Without a Trace stretched out over a videogame. I suppose it showed that there is an audience for a seemingly 'adult' game that focuses on story, but I think the quality of the game will have put the majority of purchasers off buying similar titles in the future.

I think a lot of the flaws in Heavy Rain are technical though. As graphics technology ups a few ante's, games like Heavy Rain will be infinitely better realised. For example, just imagine the game with LA Noire's new facial scan technology. The game would have been been two fold better. The VA could have been better in areas, but overall it was still relatively convincing.

The actual atmosphere, cinematography, art direction, set designs, pacing, soundtrack etc, all sublime. Highly realistic and really well designed, thematic to the story at hand.

 

[Dabanton]

The actual atmosphere, cinematography, set designs, pacing, soundtrack etc, all sublime. Highly realistic and really well designed, thematic to the story at hand.

Those were very impressive. Some moments were very well done,but the actual game built around it was dreadful.

 

[GhaleonQ]

Cage's comments prove why Heavy Rain was a failure - if you have no awareness of the past, you cannot learn from it. He needs to study the genre he's working in instead of trying to shallowly ape Hollywood.

While I do genuinely hate the video game, the reason I talk about it (as opposed to Grand Theft Auto 4 or whatever) is because of this: he has a lack of intellectual humility despite not knowing much. I mean, I realized that I didn't REALLY know about video games 5 years ago once speciality websites, wikis, Hardcore Gaming 101, Action Button, Retronauts, auto-translated Japanese websites, and online blogs totally reshaped how I thought of them. I don't even make the things.

If glorified fansites can totally humble me intellectually, you'd think a man who rubs elbows with gaming royalty would recognize his vast ignorance. The fact that

But like Jeff Canatta has said several times on Weekend Confirmed, Heavy Rain is a very important reference point, a benchmark, for modern videogames, and it'll be referred to for years to come, and not by any sort of mistake.

was all done by Gabriel Knight: Sins Of The Fathers (you're even required to do the mundane and check the newspaper, your secretary's messages, and your answering machine messages every day, and the Schloss Ritter portion can be "common" for as long as you want it to be) 17 years ago (and better!) should affect public and self-perception of Cage's efforts.

Also, Tim Curry (who is otherwise the greatest man in history) and his Louisianian accent is only marginally worse than those in Philadelphia's French Quarter.

(Also, also, I reserve the right to drop the Lovedelic bomb, as I do so exasperatingly and irritatingly often.)

The hate for Heavy Rain and Indigo's Prophecy in here is just to much...

If it makes you feel better, I got yelled at by someone elsewhere on the Internet about it yesterday. *single tear*

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

Theres alot of haters in this thread. Im sorry heavy rain doesn't have a wepon class selection.

No wonder theres more dudebro games than ones original like HR. You guys would rather play the shit that is homefront.

 

[Ellis Kim]

In what way is the game innovative? It takes the gameplay template of Fahrenheit and smothers it in a story that is both nonsensical in it's construction and amateurish in it's execution. At best, Heavy Rain showed others how not to tell a story in this medium. It was a bad episode of Without a Trace stretched out over a videogame. I suppose it showed that there is an audience for a seemingly 'adult' game that focuses on story, but I think the quality of the game will have put the majority of purchasers off buying similar titles in the future.

I'm sorry, but did you play the game on "I've never played a videogame before" difficulty setting or something? Were the game's conveyance of the playable character's actions and struggles through the controller completely lost on you?

I'm not about to argue against someone's opinion on a game that they were clearly soured on, but I will argue for what Cage was actually talking about in the article that the OP linked to with little to no context and a clear agenda for sensationalistic hate.

Heavy Rain innovates in offering a step beyond the classic Adventure game genre, a lesson that even Telltale has learned and is incorporating into their next release, Jurassic Park. The innovation in question is the "ownership of the genre" that Cage describes in the quote.

Read: Engaging the player the best they can with the only human interface device they have, and weaving a story by having the player identify with the character on both an abstract physical and emotional level. The gameplay model is the innovation, not the quality of his narrative work.

If you can't understand that, then I have nothing more to say.

was all done by Gabriel Knight: Sins Of The Fathers (you're even required to do the mundane and check the newspaper, your secretary's messages, and your answering machine messages every day, and the Schloss Ritter portion can be "common" for as long as you want it to be) 17 years ago (and better!) should affect public and self-perception of Cage's efforts.

Also, Tim Curry (who is otherwise the greatest man in history) and his Louisianian accent is only marginally worse than those in Philadelphia's French Quarter.

(Also, also, I reserve the right to drop the Lovedelic bomb, as I do so exasperatingly and irritatingly often.)

Realistic graphics. That's all I can say. Verisimilitude is the key difference. Cage isn't claiming ownership of the narrative design in grounding the player with the character on a mundane and personal level: he's already said that he's taken that from cinema.

Or was that Swery... Probably both.

 

[jackb2424]

To me Heavy Rain was one the most refreshing and unique experiences I've had this generation. Yes it has a lot of faults but what game doesn't. We are so accustomed to shooting everything in sight in a video game but when somebody just wants to try something new he gets laughed at. Now I'm not saying he owns the genre but lets be honest I wish more developers would ditch the guns and profanity and at least try to tell a decent story.

 

[plagiarize]

To be honest, I didn't enjoy Heavy Rain at all. To me the story was nothing worth mentioning, and the delivery from the actors was terrible at best. Not to mention that the animation was so wonky at times the supposed immersion was killed over and over again.

I guess I should be happy to hear that no one else than them is trying to pursue this kind of videogame design. I think it's great that games and the definition of games has broadened so much in the last years, but I also think its terrible how games try to emulate movies more and more instead of becoming an unique medium to tell stories with their own unique toolset to do so.

then you won't want to look into Jurassic Park from TellTale which they admit openly has its design influenced by Heavy Rain and which is actually based on a film!

it looks good though if you ask me. mechanically Cage's games demonstrate a way of telling any kind of story interactively. once i've finished Heavy Rain i'll let you know if i thought the story was any good, but the gameplay mechanics work well if you ask me.

 

[Dabanton]

Theres alot of haters in this thread. Im sorry heavy rain doesn't have a wepon class selection.

No wonder theres more dudebro games than ones original like HR. You guys would rather play the shit that is homefront.

Why bring Homefront up? They are two completely different game experiences. HR has to stand on it's own merits surely.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

But like Jeff Canatta has said several times on Weekend Confirmed, Heavy Rain is a very important reference point, a benchmark, for modern videogames, and it'll be referred to for years to come, and not by any sort of mistake.

Yeah, it will be used to show what happens when you let someone who doesn't like games make games( if you want to break conventions, it helps to understand them).

The most amazing part of this post is that it actually validates Swery's own game design theory on how to make your game memorable.

Just for fun, and if you're so willing, I'd like to ask that you make a similar bullet point list for Gears of War.

Memorable doesn't mean good, & even if GoW has a poor story it has something to fall back on(its gameplay), Cages games have nothing other than the quality(or lack of) of the writing to rely on. If he had better writers then perhaps future titles may be worth something but I think his ego wouldn't allow that.

 

[nib95]

Those were very impressive. Some moments were very well done,but the actual game built around it was dreadful.

I disagree but different strokes for different folks.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

This is gonna be one angry weirdo thread.

Well, the Molyneux hatred thread can't go on forever.

 

[The Technomancer]

Theres alot of haters in this thread. Im sorry heavy rain doesn't have a wepon class selection.

No wonder theres more dudebro games than ones original like HR. You guys would rather play the shit that is homefront.

*laughs*

*falls over laughing*

You really think thats my problem with the game? Ohhhhh broad generalizations are fun.

I'm one of the biggest proponents of the ideas of games as an interactive medium. I've written posts at length defending it against the "games are all about gameplay, screw the story hurr" But Heavy Rain was pretty shit. Its story was nonsensical and full of holes, and its atmosphere was indeed very immersive in all but one area: the voice acting. A terrible plot and voice acting that pulled me right out of the experience. Spent four hours trying to get into it at a friends house, trying to give it a chance because I wanted it to be good, because if it was pulled off correctly it could have been awesome, and eventually I was just like "dude...lets play Mario Kart"

I'm not going to make the same broad generalization about "people who enjoy Hevay Rain have never played another good adventure" but when quotes like this come up:

To me Heavy Rain was one the most refreshing and unique experiences I've had this generation. Yes it has a lot of faults but what game doesn't. We are so accustomed to shooting everything in sight in a video game but when somebody just wants to try something new he gets laughed at.

No. No, we really aren't accustomed to that. Not unless you play an incredibly narrow segment of released video games, the kind of segment that would lead you to find Heavy Rain "refreshing"

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I honestly don't see how he thinks QTE gameplay helps these types of games in any way. There is already a major connection between the player and the character's actions with traditional controls and perhaps even more because there isn't a symbol constantly showing up to show you that you're playing a game. I also don't see how he could possibly claim being able to set up mundane things to get you more into the world or to heighten the tragedy later on. I mean, all video games can easily, easily do that and a lot have. He is seriously delusional.

 

[∀ Narayan]

Mr. Cage, before making such ridiculous claims, maybe you and your studio should actually develop a decent game in the "Interactive Story-Telling Genre".

 

[nib95]

*laughs*

*falls over laughing*

You really think thats my problem with the game? Ohhhhh broad generalizations are fun.

I'm one of the biggest proponents of the ideas of games as an interactive medium. I've written posts at length defending it against the "games are all about gameplay, screw the story hurr" But Heavy Rain was pretty shit. Its story was nonsensical and full of holes, and its atmosphere was indeed very immersive in all but one area: the voice acting. A terrible plot and voice acting that pulled me right out of the experience. Spent four hours trying to get into it at a friends house and eventually I was just like "dude...lets play Mario Kart"

Were you embarrassed playing it or something? Too slow, too emotional? Not exciting enough lol? In any case, it was never going to appeal to everyone.

On a side note, I've heard that the story was full of holes twice in this thread now, but with no elaboration or explanation. Care do go in to more detail and outline these "holes"? Surprised you managed to pick any out, especially in just 4 hours....

 

[The Technomancer]

Were you embarrassed playing it or something? Too slow, too emotional? Not exciting enough lol? In any case, it was never going to appeal to everyone.

On a side note, I've heard that the story was full of holes twice in this now, but with no elaboration or explanation. Care do go in to more detail and outline these "holes"? Surprised you managed to pick any out, especially in just 4 hours....

Eh, read my edits or I'll say it again here: I wanted it to be good. I liked everything I heard from previews, about choices being important.
Too slow? I play adventure games all the time. I played and loved 999, and that game is paced like a glacier at some points.

Let me quote Amir0x's review, which as a whole perfectly describes my feelings for the game:

At one moment, they're monitoring a building where Ethan is. One character enters the building on a motorcycle which all the police clearly see and helps Ethan escape (why the building wasn't surrounded, who knows!), and of course they never think to detain the motorcycle to run plates or anything. Later on the police corner Ethan at a hotel and chase him from room to room and onto the roof. How does Ethan escape? He does a bunny hop off the roof and in front of the police helicopter hijacks a taxi. No one pursues him. Let me emphasize this. He escapes an entire force of police including a police helicopter by committing another crime in front of an aerial unit and still escapes with no one in pursuit. Yeah. Fucking christ.

 

[twofold]

*laughs*

*falls over laughing*

You really think thats my problem with the game? Ohhhhh broad generalizations are fun.

I'm one of the biggest proponents of the ideas of games as an interactive medium. I've written posts at length defending it against the "games are all about gameplay, screw the story hurr" But Heavy Rain was pretty shit. Its story was nonsensical and full of holes, and its atmosphere was indeed very immersive in all but one area: the voice acting. A terrible plot and voice acting that pulled me right out of the experience. Spent four hours trying to get into it at a friends house, trying to give it a chance because I wanted it to be good, because if it was pulled off correctly it could have been awesome, and eventually I was just like "dude...lets play Mario Kart"

I'm not going to make the same broad generalization about "people who enjoy Hevay Rain have never played another good adventure" but when quotes like this come up:

No. No, we really aren't accustomed to that. Not unless you play an incredibly narrow segment of released video games, the kind of segment that would lead you to find Heavy Rain "refreshing"

I had the same experience. I think I lasted three hours before I couldn't stand it anymore and turned it off. The terrible voice acting, poor script and plodding nature of the story took me out of the game completely. It felt like an interactive version of "The Room".

 

[Ellis Kim]

I honestly don't see how he thinks QTE gameplay helps these types of games in any way. There is already a major connection between the player and the character's actions with traditional controls and perhaps even more because there isn't a symbol constantly showing up to show you that you're playing a game. I also don't see how he could possibly claim being able to set up mundane things to get you more into the world or to heighten the tragedy later on. I mean, all video games can easily, easily do that and a lot have. He is seriously delusional.

Ok. Let me just stop you right there. The game wasn't just "QTE" gameplay. To call it QTE is a huge disservice.

QTE is Resident Evil 4, Shenmue, Yakuza, and God of War. Random as fuck buttons appearing on screen in an attempt to keep you attentive.

Heavy Rain's use of on-screen buttons is so far beyond that that I'm not even going to validate the rest of your post.

 

[nib95]

Eh, read my edits or I'll say it again here: I wanted it to be good. I liked everything I heard from previews, about choices being important.
Too slow? I play adventure games all the time. I played and loved 999, and that game is paced like a glacier at some points.

Haven't played 999 so can't comment. But yea, about those plot holes?

 

[TheOddOne]

Ok. Let me just stop you right there. The game wasn't just "QTE" gameplay. To call it QTE is a huge disservice.

QTE is Resident Evil 4, Shenmue, Yakuza, and God of War. Random as fuck buttons appearing on screen in an attempt to keep you attentive.

Heavy Rain's use of on-screen buttons is so far beyond that that I'm not even going to validate the rest of your post.

Those a "small" part of those games.

 

[plagiarize]

I honestly don't see how he thinks QTE gameplay helps these types of games in any way. There is already a major connection between the player and the character's actions with traditional controls and perhaps even more because there isn't a symbol constantly showing up to show you that you're playing a game. I also don't see how he could possibly claim being able to set up mundane things to get you more into the world or to heighten the tragedy later on. I mean, all video games can easily, easily do that and a lot have. He is seriously delusional.

personally i enjoy 'walking in the shoes' of these characters for a while. it does make me care more about them. they aren't particularly interesting characters, so i do wonder how i would feel about a well written character that i got to know through similar techniques.

hell one of my biggest issues with Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy was that after spending all this time putting us into the minutia of these peoples lives, that it then skipped ahead in time and had two charactes fall in love off screen in the interim.

i wanted to experience that. i wanted to go on that awkward first date.

 

[daviyoung]

about choices being important.

This was my main gripe with the marketing of it. In all honesty, they weren't. If they'd hushed up about how everything you do affects the outcome there would be less hatred for it.

 

[dimb]

Oh lol. What am idiotic post. Guess all the awards and critical acclaim it's received, even so long after it's release are also because of Sony's "hypemachine" and the lack of other good games?

I think you are misinterpreting the Sony hypemachine as a bad thing. It's marketing dollars and buzz, and Sony pushed and handled the game extraordinarily well and wound up selling a lot of copies.

It doesn't take much digging through the history of Heavy Rain to see that it was picked up by Sony purely out of luck. Sony had nothing else to show early on for the PS3, so Heavy Rain got heavier billing than it might have otherwise. It was in the right place at the right time, and it preformed better at stores because of that.

And I don't think critical acclaim or awards from the video game sector or worth very much. At least to me personally, after seeing the positive reception to Dragon Age 2 I find it hard to take the press very seriously.

BAFTA has been and continues to be a joke by claiming Heavy Rain has the best story of the year. This is further complicated when it is on the same list of nominees as Fallout: New Vegas, a game that offers arguably greater choice while delivering a much stronger story with universally better characters.

Sales and critical acclaim are not necessarily a good measure of the quality of a game. Twilight was a huge success and has entire college courses geared around it. That doesn't make it good.

Also, you completely glossed on my original post which actually already counters your new one. The things mentioned, whilst they might not move the plot forward, do bring you closer to the character (well they did me) and offer a better sense of realism and that is what Cage mentioned. He never said anything about it moving the plot forward but about building a connection between the gamer and the character, and that's exactly what it does. Also, what to you IS meaningful? Why aren't the said things meaningful enough? Does every action have to be exciting in order to build a relationship with the character?

I didn't gloss over your post at all. If you find this device effective I would be interested to know what aspect of making a character take a shower connects them to you.

Good books and movies just know better than to include mundane activities to try to create a bond between their audience and the characters. Meaningful content is, as always, deliberate content in a larger narrative that drives the plot forward. You're confusing deliberate with exciting.

As I've already said, the general means of doing so are as follows:

Real character building comes from interpersonal relationships, reactions to the world, and interpretations of that surrounding environment.

Just as a general example that most people would be familiar with, The King's Speech is something where every scene is deliberate in terms of expressing the situation at hand, every scene gives a tied lead in to the next, and strong characters are established without lazily falling back on forcing viewers to watch them perform mundane activities.

 

[Peff]

Were you embarrassed playing it or something? Too slow, too emotional? Not exciting enough lol? In any case, it was never going to appeal to everyone.

On a side note, I've heard that the story was full of holes twice in this thread now, but with no elaboration or explanation. Care do go in to more detail and outline these "holes"? Surprised you managed to pick any out, especially in just 4 hours....

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23087356&postcount=155

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23089620&postcount=232

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23090963&postcount=255

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23091125&postcount=266

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23092088&postcount=300

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23804512&postcount=23

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23805375&postcount=45

http://www.gamecritics.com/daniel-weissenberger/heavy-rain-is-in-many-ways-not-well-written-part-1

http://www.gamecritics.com/daniel-weissenberger/somehow-heavy-rain-continues-to-worsen

http://www.gamecritics.com/daniel-weissenberger/hopefully-heavy-rain-gets-better-from-here-part-3

http://www.gamecritics.com/daniel-weissenberger/heavy-rain-to-the-bitter-end-part-4

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24302542&postcount=313

 

[Powercast]

I'll be there day one for his next game.