Support NeoGAF

[DNAbro]

Exactly, Deej on Guardian Radio podcast said the number "16" hours was false, it was much lower than that

16 in itself would be a nightmare. I'm going to guess it takes around 3-4.

 

[GECK]

This is a bad decision by Bungie. I can guarantee they will realize that fact eventually and add raid matchmaking .

Yeah, playing with randoms initially when nobody knows what they're doing will be a nightmare. But in a few months when most people are geared to the teeth pub groups will be able to smash the content more often than not.

 

[Two Words]

How many people here are mad at the lack of Raid Matchmaking solely because there is an utter lack of easy public communication within the game?

So 6 randoms, with subpar voice communication, subpar gear, and subpar skill can do what a top-of-the-line Clan couldn't do in 16 hours?

Is there only one difficulty to raids? If Raids are going to be this super challenge that literally only the best of the best of the best will be able to even survive a minute in, then I get this. If this is just supposed to be an even bigger challenge that offers higher difficulties, all the way up to "the best of the best of the best", then I disagree with their decision.

 

[Ascenion]

To be fair, the included mic with the PS4 is terrible and I didn't want to use that thing either.

Yeah it is terrible, I'm only still using it because I haven't found a better one I like yet. Still it would be a relatively safe assumption to think 75% of the total player base across all consoles should have a mic. I also like to hope given the game they purchased, should the need arise they'd be inclined to use it. This is truly an insult to the random clanless player. I mean what if I'm a 'beater' and I wanna wander on my own?

 

[BeforeU]

I am so surprised by the replies. How in the hell is this a good news? someone please explain this to me. That's like saying Halo firefight or COD zombie mode without matchmaking. I don't have friends who wants to play with me all the time I want. This is such a bullshit. Taking away option to play with other people. Come on now.

 

[Xamtheking]

This is a bad decision by Bungie and I can guarantee they will realize eventually.

Yeah, playing with randoms intially when nobody knows what they're doing will be a nightmare. But in a few months when most people are geared to the teeth pub groups will be able to smash the content more often than not.

Maybe they are intentionally leaving Matchmaking out early so it prevents random nightmares

I am so surprised by the replies. How in the hell is this a good news? someone please explain this to me. That's like saying Halo firefight or COD zombie mode without matchmaking. I don't have friends who wants to play with me all the time I want. This is such a bullshit. Taking away option to play with other people. Come on now.

People from DestinyGAF will play with you
Also, would you rather get into the Raid faster or have a better chance to clear the Raid

 

[TDawgTommy]

I have to admit that I am not really a fan of this news. But it would at least be acceptable if they would actually make clans exist in game and have some type of communication. Right now there might as well not even be clans.

 

[Nokagi]

Why not just let people have the option, like the option to use mics with randoms in the other modes, quite pathetic tbh.

Exactly. But according to some people here options are bad cause pugs run around in circles or something.

 

[commish]

So you are saying these raids will not be fun unless they are completed? There is no fun in maybe getting farther than you got last time? The actual mechanics of the gameplay in the raid are not fun? If that is the case, then where is the fun? Winning and getting fat loot is the only source of fun? That isn't really fun in my eyes and I definitely hope that is not what raids in Destiny are like.

I'm saying that getting a bunch of random people to work together to complete a task that takes multiple hours is usually an exercise in frustration. I'm not saying it can't be fun - who knows, we haven't played the Destiny raids - but constantly failing at the same point in a raid for hours on end because your teammates are dumb is not fun. I still have nightmares about people running INTO THE GOD DAMN FIRE during WoW raids.

 

[Netherscourge]

How many people here are mad at the lack of Raid Matchmaking solely because there is an utter lack of easy public communication within the game?

That is a big complaint of mine, but not just because of raids. Just in general.

We need some sort of "Zone Chat".

Most people don't use headsets at all. Not even during strike missions.

This is one of those instances where not having keyboard chat really hurts the game, IMO.

I hate wearing a headset and talking - I play mostly at night when my kid is a sleep. I can't be talking out loud and risk waking up a cranky 4 year old at 10PM!!!

lol

 

[Jest Chillin]

It´s only 6 people, that´s why i think it can´t really be that hard. Having 6 people knowing what to do and do it right isn´t that hard but i will definately follow how the destiny community are doing.

Well we can only assume that it's tuned to be difficult for 6 people. In general, less people means each person must pull more weight and is more critical to success. But as you said, all we can do to know for sure is wait and see.

Isn't this every raid until people find out how to do it?

True. However this can be said of any difficult thing. When having this discussion, the experiences before all solutions are found and spread is what is paramount.

Wait what? where did you get this?

It was something Urk or DeeJ said in an interview awhile back. I believe Urk also confirmed it in one of the previous Destiny threads. Either the Alpha thread or the Alpha withdrawal thread.

But if the end result is still fireteams stomp matchmakers, then the result is the same as raids. A poor experience. The fireteam gets no challenge and the matchmakers get stomped. Clearly that is a bad experience. We can't allow the possibility of that, so kill PvP matchmaking too. If people want to do PvP, they just need to go to the Tower and find other like-minded people to play with them or join their friends. That way, every single PvP match ever will be a well-rounded fireteam vs fireteam match.

A single succesfful Raid rewards success with gear. A single PvP match does not. "Ranked" PvP modes and tournaments with rewards always require pre-made teams. Your argument doesn't work.

That's a fair assessment. I haven't played many traditional MMOs so I'm not familiar with the shortcomings of those systems. Coming from Defiance I found very little of Destiny reminding me that it was an MMORPG. I was tackling this from an ME3 MP perspective. In that case the developers claimed the newest high difficulty mode would be extremely difficult. The masses found it difficult, but for some it was quickly mastered and pub grouping became a great way to keep things interesting. Groups were just there to speed run the instance or complete it with unique setups that increased the difficulty. In that case grouping was similar to Detiny GAF going into a PVP match thus removing all difficulty to quickly roll over the enemy and stat pad.

To me the only difference between the current Strike and Raid grouping is that Raiding is more cumbersome. If I wanted to Raid sometime today it's still very likely that one or two slots will be taken up by some random we don't know, but had to troll around outside the game to find.

Of course over time as the Raid is figured out, things will change but until that point, matchmade groups are far, far more likely to fail and be a source of frustration and anger. Once the Raid is discovered, people can still manually invite whoever they'd like from The Tower or other places anyways.

The system isn't perfect at all but the design intent does make sense.

 

[Two Words]

No one wants to put that much effort into something just to lose. It's common sense.

Why would you spend hours doing something in a game that will make all those hours deemed not-fun and wasted if you don't win? I played plenty of games growing up that had a "Run out of lives and you start the game all over" system. I could spend 2-5 hours playing them and hoping I might beat the game this time. If I failed, I didn't feel like that time was wasted. I had fun during that time. That's how games SHOULD be.

 

[Eusis]

But nobody plays one PvP match. You play for hours. If you are playing for hours in PvP and you're constantly being matched against fireteams and getting stomped, how is that any different? And what is with this attitude that you can't have fun while failing in a raid? Maybe you join a public raid and only are able to make it half-way through the raid. So what? If it took you two hours to get that fair, maybe you at least had a lot of fun during that raid? Why is that so hard to think?

The single biggest difference there is that a raid that fails half way through is a LOT of wasted time, Maybe you got some experience and some loot, but you have to redo the whole damn thing again, it's similar to losing a save in a game that was just warming up, or going through a protracted boss fight only to have bad luck destroy you halfway through or later. Meanwhile losing the PVP matches is just what happens in any match of skill, though if you had failure after failure you might be demoralized enough to just not care to play anyway.

 

[Hawaii Jeff]

randoms just quit anyway when they begin to lose.

 

[Oni Jazar]

This sucks for me two fold:

1) I hardly ever have "hours" to spend in one sitting.

2) If by some miracle I did have that much time, it would likely be when no one else would be available.

 

[Xamtheking]

randoms just quit anyway when they begin to lose.

Exactly

This sucks for me two fold:

1) I hardly ever have "hours" to spend in one sitting.

2) If by some miracle I did have that godly amount of time, it would be at a time where most likely no one else would be available.

Honestly?
Ouch

 

[dragonelite]

The single biggest difference there is that a raid that fails half way through is a LOT of wasted time, Maybe you got some experience and some loot, but you have to redo the whole damn thing again, it's similar to losing a save in a game that was just warming up, or going through a protracted boss fight only to have bad luck destroy you halfway through or later. Meanwhile losing the PVP matches is just what happens in any match of skill, though if you had failure after failure you might be demoralized enough to just not care to play anyway.

Depends how much you can gear up from the first couple of boss encounters.
At least i assume a raid has multiple bosses.

 

[Chittagong]

I do not know 5 people who would have the same console. Outside gaf I mean.

 

[Tidus_Great]

preorder cancelled.
what's with lazy devs these days, a game that is pretty much focused on online and you cant even have matchmaking for this. same crap ruined firefight for ODST

 

[Two Words]

I'm saying that getting a bunch of random people to work together to complete a task that takes multiple hours is usually an exercise in frustration. I'm not saying it can't be fun - who knows, we haven't played the Destiny raids - but constantly failing at the same point in a raid for hours on end because your teammates are dumb is not fun. I still have nightmares about people running INTO THE GOD DAMN FIRE during WoW raids.

Eh, Destiny has some similarities to Warframe. I often find myself friending people that I find to be very good in matchmaking. So even if I fail to complete a really difficult nightmare mode mission in Warframe, I might come across a random person I want to play with again. It's a great way to build a group to play with. That doesn't exist as a possibility in Destiny for Raids.

 

[Mindlog]

How many people here are mad at the lack of Raid Matchmaking solely because there is an utter lack of easy public communication within the game?

So 6 randoms, with subpar voice communication, subpar gear, and subpar skill can do what a top-of-the-line Clan couldn't do in 16 hours?

Do you believe what was tested is what will ship?
First Light is certainly getting a big overhaul before it ships.

 

[Nokagi]

randoms just quit anyway when they begin to lose.

Have the game auto look for a new player if one quits? Or is that also too hard?

 

[Netherscourge]

randoms just quit anyway when they begin to lose.

And get replaced by new randoms.

Eventually you find someone who has a clue.

If not, you try again another time.

If you're lucky to find good people, you Friend them and then NEXT TIME you can skip the matchmaking feature.

But it's good to have matchmaking there in the first place to get people started at least. That's how you find good, new people to play with, instead of having to join some cult gaming group with some crazy-ass initiation process.

 

[Two Words]

The single biggest difference there is that a raid that fails half way through is a LOT of wasted time, Maybe you got some experience and some loot, but you have to redo the whole damn thing again, it's similar to losing a save in a game that was just warming up, or going through a protracted boss fight only to have bad luck destroy you halfway through or later. Meanwhile losing the PVP matches is just what happens in any match of skill, though if you had failure after failure you might be demoralized enough to just not care to play anyway.

I don't play games with the mindset "If I'm not making progress, I'm not having fun." I play them with the mindset "I'm having fun if what I am playing is fun." I'm not going to worry about failing a raid multiple times as long as the raid is fun. Maybe I never complete it. Maybe it takes me forever. Who knows. I have plenty of games that I never beat because they had no save system, but they were fun to play and are still fun to play.

 

[Xamtheking]

preorder cancelled.
what's with lazy devs these days, a game that is pretty much focused on online and you cant even have matchmaking for this. same crap ruined firefight for ODST

Because Raids are so vital for Destiny that without them it turns into a giant marshmellow sundae
(They have matchmaking for everything else)

Do you believe what was tested is what will ship?
First Light is certainly getting a big overhaul before it ships.

IGN article certainly talked about how hard the Raids are going to be
Also, I think the guys tested it last month or so?

 

[cametall]

This sucks for me two fold:

1) I hardly ever have "hours" to spend in one sitting.

2) If by some miracle I did have that much time, it would likely be when no one else would be available.

Same here. I'd gladly take my chances with random players than not be able to do (try) the raid at all.

 

[Perfect Cha0s]

Why would you spend hours doing something in a game that will make all those hours deemed not-fun and wasted if you don't win? I played plenty of games growing up that had a "Run out of lives and you start the game all over" system. I could spend 2-5 hours playing them and hoping I might beat the game this time. If I failed, I didn't feel like that time was wasted. I had fun during that time. That's how games SHOULD be.

Raids aren't really like that, though. If you get stuck, you keep losing over and over in a short span of time, and have to decide whether to keep moving on, or to give up. And what makes you lose over and over might not even be you, but two other guys in your group.

 

[Danis]

If this is the route Bungie feels it needs to go, fine. But massive systematic changes need to be made to the communication systems in the game in order for this to work. My suggestions:

1. Public chat zone. Perhaps in the area where you spawn at the tower, where the ships are coming and going. Proximity public chat would be enabled here for all 16 guardians at the tower.

2. Fire team status icons. Give the players an icon above their head showing the status of their fireteam at a glance. Open/closed, and if open, what mode players are needed for. Open/raid could be the Raid icon with an open circle around it.

3. Better integration of player menus. When I R3 on a player to see their info, it SHOULD NOT open their PSN player card. It should open their Destiny player card with a single triangle press for "invite player to fire team".

These three changes, yes, Raids will be a huge success. Without them, I see it being tedious and not worth the effort for the majority of players.

 

[Sketchbag]

Makes no sense TBH. The game doesn't have that much (very little) in terms of communicating with random players outside of a headset. Not everyone uses a headset. Having an interface available to get groups would be better than... trying to find one in a console MMO. Heck, even in DCUO you have channels and what not to chat in to get groups (if you have a keyboard). Destiny seems like the type of game that needs a Looking-For-Group. This is beyond stupid. Not everyone will be playing with friends.

 

[The Lamonster]

When someone drops out of a strike, does the system matchmake a new player into their spot?

 

[Xamtheking]

When someone drops out of a strike, does the system matchmake a new player into their spot?

Si

 

[Twilight Gap]

If this is the route Bungie feels it need a to go, fine. But massive systematic changes need to be made to the communication systems in the game in order for this to work. My suggestions:

1. Public chat zone. Perhaps in the area where you spawn at the tower, where the ships are coming and going. Proximity public chat would be enabled here for all 16 guardians at the tower.

2. Fire team status icons. Give the players an icon above their head showing the status of their fireteam at a glance. Open/closed, and if open, what mode players are needed for. Open/raid could be the Raid icon with an open circle around it.

3. Better integration of player menus. When I R3 on a player to see their info, it SHOULD NOT open their PSN player card. It should open their Destiny player card with a single triangle press for "invite player to fire team".

These three changes, yes, Raids will be a huge success. Without them, I see it being tedious and not worth the effort for the majority of players.

Definitely agree that they need to work on their other systems for this to work. It's too cumbersome to invite players right now and the fact that you're knocked into orbit is a hassle.

 

[Calcium]

Yeah, this isn't good news for me at all. My schedule has always been a problem with MMO raiding which is why I loved the LFR system in WoW. I got to see the raid content when I had the time to do so. Bungie should have implemented a similar system and I think they'll realize that in few months when only a fraction of the player base is raiding on a regular basis.

 

[TriniTrin]

Exactly

You seem quite defensive about not enabling matchmaking for raids so I wonder...

Why do you feel there should not be an option for people to use matchmaking on raids if they want to? How would having this option affect you playing the game?

To me, options are good! And having matchmaking for Raids as an option does not harm the game or players. If you believe so strongly that PUGs will not be able to complete the contact, then the option to matchmake is obviously one that you wouldn't use. But there are other who would probably use it. I literally see no problems that come from having a choice.

 

[mtodavk]

Looks like I'll have to rely on the clan system and DestinyGAF pretty heavily if I want to complete this stuff. I can't say I'm disappointed though...I'm looking forward to making new friends playing the game!

 

[DudeWithNoName]

I echo the sentiment that I can't set aside several hours at a time for something like this. Nor can I line up enough peeps to do it with me.

That said, could they implement some sort of checkpoint system? Where one could play for say an hour or so to get to the first checkpoint, and quit. Then you could come back later to that checkpoint and drop in with another group playing through who is at that spot.

 

[KillerDark]

Too bad that this "pillar of the game" is held up by old raiding tropes.

Flex raiding in WoW has been the best system ever implemented into the game, since raids can dynamically scale from as little as 8 players to as many as 25. Would have been great if these raids in Destiny did the same (eg it scales from 3-6, or even max of 8 or 10 players, so that all party sizes can be accounted for/no one gets left out).

That would have been a great addition.

Agreed completely. That would be awesome if Bungie would implement something similar.

 

[ultron87]

True. However this can be said of any difficult thing. When having this discussion, the experiences before all solutions are found and spread is what is paramount.

I think this will really hurt the way that those solutions and strategies spread. Yes, if you let random parties get in there it'll be pretty tough at first. A lot of groups will fail. If they mean this content to be hard that should a totally fine outcome. However, organized groups and particularly dedicated PUGs might start to get bosses done. This will mean the strategies will get out there, and will get spread to other PUGs, and better gear will drop so that the general end-game population will be better equipped to take on the content. People could lead PUG groups and pass on the strategies until it becomes commonly known. (Though this would require some sort of "raid leader" role that can invite and boot people that aren't cooperating.)

If there are no ways for group of strangers to get together and raid all this knowledge sharing will have to happen elsewhere, and even if they learn that knowledge people won't be able to use it if they can't find five others. This will make developing a healthy end game population more difficult. In the worst case this could mean that developing raids at all becomes less and less of a priority as few people progress through them due to these restrictions.

 

[Netherscourge]

I can't help but think how much better the raid idea would be if this game supported keyboard chat.

Having a keyboard right in front of you would solve so many communication problems.

Is that even on the table? USB Keyboard support for Destiny?

 

[Caja 117]

Si

Whats going to happen on Raids if someone gets disconected?

 

[Eusis]

I don't play games with the mindset "If I'm not making progress, I'm not having fun." I play them with the mindset "I'm having fun if what I am playing is fun." I'm not going to worry about failing a raid multiple times as long as the raid is fun. Maybe I never complete it. Maybe it takes me forever. Who knows. I have plenty of games that I never beat because they had no save system, but they were fun to play and are still fun to play.

What can be fun is different for everyone though, and in general I DO want to feel like I'm making progress. Though I also rarely got through the no-save games unless they were REALLY good, had some secret to get ahead (hey Mario!), or used passwords instead which is more like a save system that depends on you to record the necessary data for the game rather than a battery keeping a bit of RAM alive.

 

[DNAbro]

preorder cancelled.
what's with lazy devs these days, a game that is pretty much focused on online and you cant even have matchmaking for this. same crap ruined firefight for ODST

They purposely left out matchmaking. It's not a "lazy dev" decision. They could probably easy put it in, but they went against it.

 

[Xamtheking]

You seem quite defensive about not enabling matchmaking for raids so I wonder...

Why do you feel there should not be an option for people to use matchmaking on raids if they want to? How would having this option affect you playing the game?

To me, options are good! And having matchmaking for Raids as an option does not harm the game or players. If you believe so strongly that PUGs will not be able to complete the contact, then the option to matchmake is obviously one that you wouldn't use. But there are other who would probably use it. I literally see no problems that come from having a choice.

IMO it's because Bungie wants to make a Raid an experience, not a repetitive matchmaking grindfest.

 

[NullPointer]

That's the thing though, Bungie is (supposedly) designing them so that you do need those things.

Killzone Intercept was supposed to be the same way but muted players can still hack it - and there are more strictly required class synergies in that game than what I've seen of Destiny.

I had an hour and a half match with one group of two players who didn't speak a lick of English. It was tough going at first but we figured it out and overcame.

They purposely left out matchmaking. It's not a "lazy dev" decision. They could probably easy put it in, but they went against it.

Not going to call it lazy but campaign missions don't have matchmaking either right? Whats the reasoning there?

 

[HiredN00bs]

When someone drops out of a strike, does the system matchmake a new player into their spot?

I think I recall it doing that, but it would seem kinda crappy to go into Strike matchmaking and join in progress, unless it helped you get drops faster and that's why you were there.

An experience that is cumbersome and difficult to access and will be largely ignored unless they improve player communication.

Fireteams have open voice chat.

 

[Xamtheking]

Whats going to happen on Raids if someone gets disconected?

Crying, I guess

 

[Danis]

IMO it's because Bungie wants to make a Raid an experience, not a repetitive matchmaking grindfest.

An experience that is cumbersome and difficult to access and will be largely ignored unless they improve player communication.

 

[ultron87]

When someone drops out of a strike, does the system matchmake a new player into their spot?

I joined a strike during the Alpha that was on the final boss.

 

[Xamtheking]

An experience that is cumbersome and difficult to access and will be largely ignored unless they improve player communication.

I already asked if people don't like the way Raids will work due to the lack of player communication, and many responded in the affirmative.

 

[Danis]

Has anyone figured out what happens if someone gets dropped or has to leave? Is the whole party booted? Can you try to make a go with 5 players? What if three quit?