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[Hoo-doo]

But if the end result is still fireteams stomp matchmakers, then the result is the same as raids. A poor experience. The fireteam gets no challenge and the matchmakers get stomped. Clearly that is a bad experience. We can't allow the possibility of that, so kill PvP matchmaking too. If people want to do PvP, they just need to go to the Tower and find other like-minded people to play with them or join their friends. That way, every single PvP match ever will be a well-rounded fireteam vs fireteam match.

If you had just looked up what mercenary gametypes were you could have saved yourself a post.

A mercenary gametype restricts premade groups for PVP. No advantages. There.
You can't apply such a thing to raids, not at all.

 

[SocksAndShoes]

But if the end result is still fireteams stomp matchmakers, then the result is the same as raids. A poor experience. The fireteam gets no challenge and the matchmakers get stomped. Clearly that is a bad experience. We can't allow the possibility of that, so kill PvP matchmaking too. If people want to do PvP, they just need to go to the Tower and find other like-minded people to play with them or join their friends. That way, every single PvP match ever will be a well-rounded fireteam vs fireteam match.

We get it. You don't like this decision.

You're comparing a 10 minute match with a multiple hour long raid.

The comparison doesn't work. Please stop using it.

 

[Perfect Cha0s]

But if the end result is still fireteams stomp matchmakers, then the result is the same as raids. A poor experience. The fireteam gets no challenge and the matchmakers get stomped. Clearly that is a bad experience. We can't allow the possibility of that, so kill PvP matchmaking too. If people want to do PvP, they just need to go to the Tower and find other like-minded people to play with them or join their friends. That way, every single PvP match ever will be a well-rounded fireteam vs fireteam match.

I think the main difference is that if your team is bad in a raid, you don't get stomped just once. You get stomped over and over and over again, on the same encounter. For a lot of people, getting stomped over and over again isn't fun with friends, let alone random people.

 

[Two Words]

Some random person who knows things

Because we can chew out the GAF randoms if they wimp out

Hah, nobody is going to clear a 16 hour raid, matchmade or friends.

We get it. You don't like this decision.

You're comparing a 10 minute match with a multiple hour long raid.

The comparison doesn't work. Please stop using it.

Yes, PvP matches are short. But you know what's still true? People drop out of matchmade PvP matches when their team is losing a lot of the time. So if people are leaving PvP matchmade groups, what does it matter if it is a short game?

I think the main difference is that if your team is bad in a raid, you don't get stomped just once. You get stomped over and over and over again, on the same encounter. For a lot of people, getting stomped over and over again isn't fun with friends, let alone random people.

I don't get how that really changes things. You'll keep getting stomped in PvP if you keep doing matchmaking against fireteams. Hell, Destiny keeps you matched against your opponent for the next fight automatically if you don't quit out.

 

[Bildocube]

Not sure how I feel about this. I see this as beneficial to people seriously wanting to finish a raid and not quit, but not beneficial to those without friends to play with.

Hopefully I can get together with some of DestinyGAF for the raids as I only got 2 friends to play with.

 

[Balmung421]

Too bad that this "pillar of the game" is held up by old raiding tropes.

Flex raiding in WoW has been the best system ever implemented into the game, since raids can dynamically scale from as little as 8 players to as many as 25. Would have been great if these raids in Destiny did the same (eg it scales from 3-6, or even max of 8 or 10 players, so that all party sizes can be accounted for/no one gets left out).

That would have been a great addition.

 

[Felessan]

WHAT is the harm in allowing matchmaking? How does it hurt ANYONE?

Maybe because it simply doesn't doable in "matchmaking" parties? It's not good to give hope when you have zero chances to win, it creates frustration out of thin air.
This is why the most hard hardcore content in MMO often locked out to premaid parties, as it ensure that a) you have at least some sort of cooperation in your party and b) you fully understands the consequences, that content you are going in are insanely hard and you might not pass it at all.

 

[ferrasvansen]

WoW had some pretty damn hard 5 man heroics that were not doable with randoms at the time.

How i miss those days, was such a blast heroics lasting hours. Crowd control etc essential ah well thanks for reminding me of good times.

 

[BokehKing]

But if the end result is still fireteams stomp matchmakers, then the result is the same as raids. A poor experience. The fireteam gets no challenge and the matchmakers get stomped. Clearly that is a bad experience. We can't allow the possibility of that, so kill PvP matchmaking too. If people want to do PvP, they just need to go to the Tower and find other like-minded people to play with them or join their friends. That way, every single PvP match ever will be a well-rounded fireteam vs fireteam match.

You wouldn't make it past the first boss with a random group, they're not giant bullet sponges like septic prime in a raid

 

[Perfect Cha0s]

Too bad that this "pillar of the game" is held up by old raiding tropes.

Flex raiding in WoW has been the best system ever implemented into the game, since raids can dynamically scale from as little as 8 players to as many as 25. Would have been great if these raids in Destiny did the same (eg it scales from 3-6, or even max of 8 or 10 players, so that all party sizes can be accounted for/no one gets left out).

That would have been a great addition.

And it arguably would have been much more doable in Destiny, too, since there are no strict roles.

 

[DNAbro]

Hah, nobody is going to clear a 16 hour raid, matchmade or friends.




Yes, PvP matches are short. But you know what's still true? People drop out of matchmade PvP matches when their team is losing a lot of the time. So if people are leaving PvP matchmade groups, what does it matter if it is a short game?

I don't think it's 16 hours in one go. It's 16 hours with multiple failings.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Hah, nobody is going to clear a 16 hour raid, matchmade or friends.

Im sure its much shorter than that if you played straight through. They just gave up after 16 hours of failing.

 

[see5harp]

How are GAF randoms, in practice, better than IRL randoms? I don't know 99% of this board.

Seriously. It's like these people live on a different planet.

 

[Xamtheking]

Hah, nobody is going to clear a 16 hour raid, matchmade or friends.

I think this was over multiple attempts

 

[crappybannedjunior999999]

get off your high horse bro

Why am on a "high horse"? I'm just imparting some valid observations I have made.

 

[NullPointer]

Because we can chew out the GAF randoms if they wimp out

Not sure if serious.

 

[BananasWithGuns]

I love how you just imply that Bungie did this because they just felt like it, and that they didn't spend weeks of playtesting, rebuilding, discussing, tweaking, and optimizing the shit out of this mode.

How much do you know about the game exactly? Enough to make a hard statement like that? I don't think you do.
You can merely speculate on what is and isn't better because you interpret three sentences in a certain way. I have some faith in the fact that Bungie knows what the fuck they are doing.

Honestly, I wasn't going to respond to this until Dienekes' ridiculous post. There's no sense in arguing with you, it's simply agree to disagree. Like I said in the post you quoted though, I don't need Bungie to protect me from what they feel is difficult.

There are a lot of people in these threads with their only sole purpose being to hate on the game. They don't like that they HAVE to ADS, or they don't like that "bungie screwed microsoft", or they are livid cause PS owners get something they don't, or the game is not big enough. 99 reasons to hate on Destiny.

Lots of ulterior motives regarding Destiny in these threads. Lots of entitlement and armchair devs. That 4.6 million number that was released today as far as Beta participation goes only served to make a lot of them angrier imo. LOTS of people WANT to see the game fail because of silly little console wars bullshit. Bungie has earned my money based on their track record and the beta.

I'm sure Bungie is going to put out a stinker as their first new IP in years. Yeah, right. I think the biggest population of haters are the Halo die hards. Destiny fucks them three ways, it's not Halo, It's not a Microsoft exclusive and it is a direct competitor to the franchise.

What a fucking joke this post is. I don't know if you're directly insinuating that I have some vendetta against Destiny but if you are then please realize just how stupid you are. I've posted here on GAF that I loved the beta. I have the limited edition on preorder. I've given Destiny tons of praise. So for you to twist my criticism of not having matchmaking for raids into some "ulterior motive" is just straight bullshit.

Quit acting like there's some campaign against Destiny just because people criticize certain things about it. Let alone trying to spin it into some console war shit.

 

[SocksAndShoes]

Hah, nobody is going to clear a 16 hour raid, matchmade or friends.




Yes, PvP matches are short. But you know what's still true? People drop out of matchmade PvP matches when their team is losing a lot of the time. So if people are leaving PvP matchmade groups, what does it matter if it is a short game?

You're talking about losing 10 minutes (in a PvP match) vs. losing hours (in a raid).

Again, this comparison doesn't work. I know you've really invested in this argument, but it doesn't make sense.

 

[Netherscourge]

I don't think Bungie should make raids that will last longer than the Dual Shock 4's battery life.

It would really suck to have the controller die on you in the middle of a big boss fight 4 hours into a raid.

Just saying...


(Think about it before you mock me!)

 

[TriniTrin]

Your point is valid and therefore I give an example

Scenario 1: Takes 2 minutes to find a Raid Group through matchmaking, and then the group just gives up after 2 hours of pure pain
Scenario 2: Takes 30 minutes to find a Raid Group through NeoGaf/in-game, and then the group finishes the damn thing

Scenario 3: Takes 2 minues to find a Raid Group through Matchmaking and then the group works together and completes the damn thing...


I do not see why it cannot be an option.... I guess if tons of players are complaining about the raids it makes Bungie look bad when random players get angry about it. Not that big of a reason to exclude the choice IMO.

 

[T.O.P]

I just get how people are saying "good" "it's better this way" "you already have destinygaf if you need friends"


You have hardcore people in your FL, do it with them

You don't, you're locked out of the content, simple as that

I wanna take the risk to do it with random people? then fuckin let me


Taking out options for the player is ALWAYS a bad thing, you can turn this shit every way you want

 

[David___]

How are GAF randoms, in practice, better than IRL randoms? I don't know 99% of this board.

Because unlike match-made randoms, we can actively avoid playing with people if

1) They don't communicate
2) They constantly bail
3) They grief

and we can let other people know about it.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Is it possible that the raid absolutely requires voice chat to complete? Like as in its impossible to complete without it. That could have a huge impact on a decision like this.

 

[Perfect Cha0s]

I don't get how that really changes things. You'll keep getting stomped in PvP if you keep doing matchmaking against fireteams. Hell, Destiny keeps you matched against your opponent for the next fight automatically if you don't quit out.

You don't get team against fireteams consistently. You aren't going to stumble into a Raid and find that it is randomly piss-easy. It's not an apt comparison.

 

[Two Words]

You wouldn't make it past the first boss with a random group, they're not giant bullet sponges like septic prime in a raid

Assuming the randoms had the right equipment and were allowed to talk to each other, I don't see why a group of random people with the right equipment and enabled to talk wouldn't be able to fare comparably.

 

[DNAbro]

Seriously. It's like these people live on a different planet.

cause you guarantee they won't leave after 10 minutes if they plan on being there and a mic will most likely be on so there will be communication.

 

[dragonelite]

You wouldn't make it past the first boss with a random group, they're not giant bullet sponges like septic prime in a raid

How do you know?

Septic prime was easy as fuck you can solo that thing.
The Devil walker gave a shitload more problems with its 2 ranged insta kill attacks in my experience.

Assuming the randoms had the right equipment and were allowed to talk to each other, I don't see why a group of random people with the right equipment and enabled to talk wouldn't be able to fare comparably.

I would imaging that at least one of the members knows what to at the boss.

 

[SocksAndShoes]

I just get how people are saying "good" "it's better this way" "you already have destinygaf if you need friends"


You have hardcore people in your FL, do it with them

You don't, you're locked out of the content, simple as that

I wanna take the risk to do it with random people? then fuckin let me


Taking out options for the player is ALWAYS a bad thing, you can turn this shit every way you want

It's specifically designed for those players though.

I don't see how this is any different from a game where it makes you play through a hard mode first to unlock a final difficulty. The people who are invested enough to do that end up doing it. The people that aren't invested enough cannot access that difficulty. Sorry. Maybe it changes in the future, but that's the way it is now.

 

[Stoze]

I think the real problem here is that there is no in-game clan implementation and no public chat. You should be able to easily form up a group that can communicate up for this in-game, and you really can't.

 

[Two Words]

You're talking about losing 10 minutes (in a PvP match) vs. losing hours (in a raid).

Again, this comparison doesn't work. I know you've really invested in this argument, but it doesn't make sense.

But nobody plays one PvP match. You play for hours. If you are playing for hours in PvP and you're constantly being matched against fireteams and getting stomped, how is that any different? And what is with this attitude that you can't have fun while failing in a raid? Maybe you join a public raid and only are able to make it half-way through the raid. So what? If it took you two hours to get that fair, maybe you at least had a lot of fun during that raid? Why is that so hard to think?

 

[Perfect Cha0s]

Assuming the randoms had the right equipment and were allowed to talk to each other, I don't see why a group of random people with the right equipment and enabled to talk wouldn't be able to fare comparably.

Three things this group is riding on: 1) everyone has the right equipment, 2) they all have mics, 3) they aren't completely incompetent.

That's a lot to leave up to chance.

Edit:

But nobody plays one PvP match. You play for hours. If you are playing for hours in PvP and you're constantly being matched against fireteams and getting stomped, how is that any different?

Because you aren't.

 

[viveks86]

I don't think Bungie should make raids that will last longer than the Dual Shock 4's battery life.

It would really suck to have the controller die on you in the middle of a big boss fight 4 hours into a raid.

Just saying...


(Think about it before you mock me!)

I'm almost certain it won't be that long. It will be that long if you keep trying and failing, but that goes for any game mode

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

At the end of the day, giving an option for matchmaking doesn't take away the option for team building, one doesn't hinder the other.

 

[Vandiger]

Here is what matchmaking would look like in a super hard raid

1 - 3 minutes - Finding a group

3 - 10 minutes - The 2 folks with mics are asking the 2 people without mics and the 2 people who are in a private party to join the chat. The other people can't hear them or don't care. The 4 people who can't hear are running a head and pulling mobs.

10 - 20 minutes - The group has wiped on the first set of trash mobs 2 times now and the 2 folks with mics are begging the other four to get on mic so they can time the pull and plan ahead, but alas they cannot hear or don't care. Meanwhile, folks without mics are quitting and the two who were in their own private party are complaining to each other how everyone else is a noob.

20 - 30 minutes - one by one folks begin to quit since you are wiping on the first trash pull. They are replaced by singles who then immediately quit as they see they are joining a group in progress that cannot even complete the first trash pull.

30 minutes later you and your friend both quit too and go to PVP, or Strike or give up on Destiny all together because you are frustrated you keep wasting your limited gaming time.

This is what the experience would be for matchmaking a hard raid. Are you sure you still want that option?

Exactly, why the fuck is it hard to comprehend that this hardcore mode requires pre-made groups. People love to complain and shit on Destiny in some way. Just deal with it.

 

[Duxxy3]

It's specifically designed for those players though.

I don't see how this is any different from a game where it makes you play through a hard mode first to unlock a final difficulty. The people who are invested enough to do that end up doing it. The people that aren't invested enough cannot access that difficulty. Sorry. Maybe it changes in the future, but that's the way it is now.

But it's not another difficulty mode, it's actual content. It's gear that may not be available anywhere else, if these raids are like every other raid in a game.

 

[commish]

But nobody plays one PvP match. You play for hours. If you are playing for hours in PvP and you're constantly being matched against fireteams and getting stomped, how is that any different? And what is with this attitude that you can't have fun while failing in a raid? Maybe you join a public raid and only are able to make it half-way through the raid. So what? If it took you two hours to get that fair, maybe you at least had a lot of fun during that raid? Why is that so hard to think?

My experience in MMOs says otherwise.

 

[ultron87]

One positive thing from this is that I'm quite interested to see how they made shooter bosses that are supposedly so difficult that "a top guild" couldn't beat it. Especially in a game where there really aren't obvious mechanisms like healing and aggro, from what I can tell. Hopefully it isn't just a ton of instant kill attacks that are difficult to dodge.

 

[T.O.P]

I think the real problem here is that there is no in-game clan implementation and no public chat. You should be able to easily form up a group that can communicate up for this in-game, and you really can't.

10x times this


Give us a LFG board, a chat, anything

Or at least come out and explain how hubs will work

I also wanna be able to talk to the people i'm playing with, as of now, it's just tedious

 

[see5harp]

Why am on a "high horse"? I'm just imparting some valid observations I have made.

How many people in this thread are participating in console wars? Most people critical of the issue had the same issue with ODST firefight.

AND AGAIN: Reach firefight having matchmaking had nothing to do with why that mode sucked. Anyone who played ODST firefight and went after those score achievements knows that the two modes were not at all similar.

 

[Two Words]

Three things this group is riding on: 1) everyone has the right equipment, 2) they all have mics, 3) they aren't completely incompetent.

That's a lot to leave up to chance.

Edit:
Because you aren't.

They don't all need to have mics. They don't all need to have the right equipment. And they don't all need to be completely incompetent. And I don't think those requisites are that hard to fulfill.

 

[Xamtheking]

How many people here are mad at the lack of Raid Matchmaking solely because there is an utter lack of easy public communication within the game?

They don't all need to have mics. They don't all need to have the right equipment. And they don't all need to be completely incompetent. And I don't think those requisites are that hard to fulfill.

So 6 randoms, with subpar voice communication, subpar gear, and subpar skill can do what a top-of-the-line Clan couldn't do in 16 hours?

 

[Twilight Gap]

One positive thing from this is that I'm quite interested to see how they made shooter bosses that are supposedly so difficult that "a top guild" couldn't beat it. Especially in a game where there really aren't obvious mechanisms like healing and aggro, from what I can tell. Hopefully it isn't just a ton of instant kill attacks that are difficult to dodge.

If I had to guess, the bosses could alter the geometry, physics or damage properties on the fly, and maybe in some cases disable moves.

 

[funkypie]

Why not just let people have the option, like the option to use mics with randoms in the other modes, quite pathetic tbh.

We already know the ai is terrible in this game.

 

[Two Words]

My experience in MMOs says otherwise.

So you are saying these raids will not be fun unless they are completed? There is no fun in maybe getting farther than you got last time? The actual mechanics of the gameplay in the raid are not fun? If that is the case, then where is the fun? Winning and getting fat loot is the only source of fun? That isn't really fun in my eyes and I definitely hope that is not what raids in Destiny are like.

 

[DNAbro]

They don't all need to have mics. They don't all need to have the right equipment. And they don't all need to be completely incompetent. And I don't think those requisites are that hard to fulfill.

Apparently you do cause 16 hours of an organized team failing doesn't sound easy.

And people saying that getting matched up against other teams in pvp need to play more online shooters cause that rarely happens.

 

[syko de4d]

Three things this group is riding on: 1) everyone has the right equipment, 2) they all have mics, 3) they aren't completely incompetent.

That's a lot to leave up to chance.

Edit:
Because you aren't.

Gear is pretty easy to solve. Just gave people a Gearscore, the better gear they have the higher the score. If they have a score over XXXX only then they can join the LFG tool. And then add a easy Raid mode for LFG, with worse loot, and only people who have finished easy mode can use the normal Raid LFG tool, so you only end with people in the team who know the mechanics of the raid.

 

[BokehKing]

I don't think it's 16 hours in one go. It's 16 hours with multiple failings.

Exactly, Deej on Guardian Radio podcast said the number "16" hours was false, it was much lower than that

 

[Dmonzy]

But nobody plays one PvP match. You play for hours. If you are playing for hours in PvP and you're constantly being matched against fireteams and getting stomped, how is that any different? And what is with this attitude that you can't have fun while failing in a raid? Maybe you join a public raid and only are able to make it half-way through the raid. So what? If it took you two hours to get that fair, maybe you at least had a lot of fun during that raid? Why is that so hard to think?

No one wants to put that much effort into something just to lose. It's common sense.

 

[ultron87]

How many people here are mad at the lack of Raid Matchmaking solely because there is an utter lack of easy public communication within the game?

The ability to actually find others and group up effectively with in-game means would certainly make this sting a lot less. Though if you add an "LFG board" that's effectively just the same as Matchmaking.

 

[Perfect Cha0s]

They don't all need to have mics. They don't all need to have the right equipment. And they don't all need to be completely competent. And I don't think those requisites are that hard to fulfill.

That's the thing though, Bungie is (supposedly) designing them so that you do need those things.

(I edited what I assumed was a typo in your post to what I think you were trying to say.)