• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

DF Direct: The PS5

Trogdor1123

Member
Mar 2, 2012
7,230
1,201
855
Sorry, it wasnt aimed at you you. It was aimed at you gamers. The way this forum looks now is the pathetic thing. I guess its to be expected though, after the way xbots were treated this whole gen. I do think they are jumping the gun though. If xsx would churn out some real difference than the ps5 - that would speak volume much more than allthe memery thats going around here. I just wanna play sonys' 1st party games. I have my pc for everythong else.
I think you are correct and I do think people (myself included) are jumping the gun a bit. Let's see some actual games! Then lets decide.

Another reason I am a bit disappointed is that I decided I was going to either buy one system or build a new PC this year. I was heavily leaning to a ps5 but with the Sony games to PC and this somewhat deflating reveal it is making my decision harder.
 

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Feb 10, 2020
2,638
11,726
665
34
Salalah, Oman
Fundamentally, games on Xbox will be limited due to all their games also being PC compatible where practically everyone is still running mech HDs/slow SSDs. XSX devs will never be able to take advantage of the SSD properly, even in their exclusives. It's going to be at least 4-7 years before SSDs will become the standard in PC-land. Not to mention the Xbone which their games also have to run on.

Bottom line is only on PS5 will we see developers truly pushing the new game ideas and concepts that are made possible by blazingly fast SSD. Not saying XSX isn't capable of doing what PS5 will do, just that you won't see it due to the issues I mentioned above.
Yup, people will get embarrassed when PS5 1st party show up. Might end up being more athletic, Olympic and XSX be more of a bodybuilder type.
 
Last edited:

Neur4lN01s3

Neophyte
Mar 19, 2020
91
129
125
Yup, people will get embarrassed when PS5 1st party show up. Might end up being more athletic, Olympic and XSX be more of a bodybuilder type.
wishful thinking at its finest, they are in the same sport, and inferior athlete is still inferior athlete, anyway
 

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Feb 10, 2020
2,638
11,726
665
34
Salalah, Oman
I'm all about dat secret sauce

Just ask my local McDonald's burger artists
My sources provided me a closer look to that sauce, it's still in prototype phase:



Seriously though, the difference would still be minor in terms of GPU, API is another matter as Vulkan is superior to DirectX 12 BS. Sony might even go further with a better ray-tracing solution, the "elegant" way. SSD WILL BE a big difference in how power is consumed as it can put MUCH less stress on CPU and GPU. Let's not forget that XSX also has unbalanced bandwidth speeds.
 
Last edited:

ph33rknot

Banned
Jan 17, 2018
897
525
335
303
listening to this. it's nice. you will rarely find someone better than DF to give the technical lowdown on any given topic.

good to have the facts. interesting how today's speech was originally meant for developers at GDC. lol youtube was full of people going "ZZZZZZ boring!" and they were just ignorant that it wasn't directed at them. this wasn't meant to shadow drop some rad game. this was a technical presentation.
The people going ZZZZZ where the ones that got PS4 to 150 mill
 
  • Like
Reactions: GymWolf

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Feb 10, 2020
2,638
11,726
665
34
Salalah, Oman
The fanboys will claw at each other's eyes from now until Holiday 2020. I'm really waiting for the mega Digital Foundry comparison of CP2077, RDR2 and 1st party games. That's gonna be very juicy stuff.
Indeed, we are dry here for next gen games. And honestly, without photorealism, I can't see what's next gen is with current games. Current games are still taxing hardware with bland looks, Quixel managed to show photorealism in a freakin 1080ti, 4K:


Full physics as well!


How it's made, it's much easier to develop, much better graphics as well:


Watch them on a 4K screen, but your eyes might melt! Both consoles are gonna be great.
 

Real_Agent_K

Banned
Mar 17, 2020
29
82
170
Yup, people will get embarrassed when PS5 1st party show up. Might end up being more athletic, Olympic and XSX be more of a bodybuilder type.
I'm sorry that you live in a bubble, but not every gamer on earth cares or gushes over Sony made games like you do, and that's just reality. I literally do not care about TLOU, Uncharted or any of that, and call me biased all you want, i can't make my mind suddenly be interested in something unless i actually am interested. I grew up playing consoles in this order. Sega, Nintendo 64, PS1, PS2, Xbox, Xbox 360, Wii, Xbox One, X and now i'll be getting the SX. I have also grew up on Nintendo handhelds because what child born in the 90's didn't? I've had my fair share of all consoles so dont go there with bias accusations.

All that said, no, i will not get embarrassed because of a Sony game releasing. Good for Playstation fans, enjoy it i guess? The good thing about Xbox is that even YOU can enjoy Xbox games if you have a PC because why not? They aren't as greedy as they once were.

Looks like you will be missing out on the likes of this though, shame. Slower SSD or not, i see an unreal looking game there.

 
Last edited:

splattered

Member
Feb 8, 2012
1,179
809
680
This is the difference between RTX 2080 (10.1 TF) vs 2080 super (11.1 TF) vs 2080ti (13.4 TF)


Not to mention SSD advantages and "Secret Sauce" :messenger_sunglasses:
So where is the PS5 equivalent in that comparison? 2070 not shown...

As taxing as RT is, it remains to be seen what the CPU/GPU will actually run at considering there is a much lower base frequency that will boost where available.

So you're more looking at something between 2070 Super & 2080 vanilla with varying performance vs something in between the 2080 Super & 2080TI with locked performance.

Not to mention MS probably still has the ability to upclock anything they want at this point including a surprise Ram upgrade if they wanted to push the price a little.
 

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Feb 10, 2020
2,638
11,726
665
34
Salalah, Oman
I'm sorry that you live in a bubble, but not every gamer on earth cares or gushes over Sony made games like you do, and that's just reality. I literally do not care about TLOU, Uncharted or any of that, and call me biased all you want, i can't make my mind suddenly be interested in something unless i actually am interested. I grew up playing consoles in this order. Sega, Nintendo 64, PS1, PS2, Xbox, Xbox 360, Wii, Xbox One, X and now i'll be getting the SX. I have also grew up on Nintendo handhelds because what child born in the 90's didn't?

All that said, no, i will not get embarrassed because of a Sony game releasing. Good for Playstation fans, enjoy it i guess? The good thing about Xbox is that even YOU can enjoy Xbox games if you have a PC because why not? They aren't as greedy as they once were.

Looks like you will be missing out on the likes of this though, shame.

Will, that's the point, you choose what fits your preference. I have a high-end PC now with only needing to upgrade from Radeon VII to Big Navi to beat XSX by a big margin. But still, if I'm interested in XSX exclusives and don't have a PC, XSX is the most sensible choice. I would still continue gaming on PS5 like I did now, nothing really pushed me even to pay $10 and try Xbox crappy library for a month. Although I can play 3rd party games better on my PC, I'm just comfortable with console convenience.

The ones who will be embarrassed are the ones expecting a huge margin, not you. Enjoy. (y)
 

splattered

Member
Feb 8, 2012
1,179
809
680
I'm sorry that you live in a bubble, but not every gamer on earth cares or gushes over Sony made games like you do, and that's just reality. I literally do not care about TLOU, Uncharted or any of that, and call me biased all you want, i can't make my mind suddenly be interested in something unless i actually am interested. I grew up playing consoles in this order. Sega, Nintendo 64, PS1, PS2, Xbox, Xbox 360, Wii, Xbox One, X and now i'll be getting the SX. I have also grew up on Nintendo handhelds because what child born in the 90's didn't? I've had my fair share of all consoles so dont go there with bias accusations.

All that said, no, i will not get embarrassed because of a Sony game releasing. Good for Playstation fans, enjoy it i guess? The good thing about Xbox is that even YOU can enjoy Xbox games if you have a PC because why not? They aren't as greedy as they once were.

Looks like you will be missing out on the likes of this though, shame. Slower SSD or not, i see an unreal looking game there.

Truth in this...

One of my best friends is a super Sony diehard fan but absolutely HATES their 1st party games. All of them. He thinks they are trash.

But he gushes over every single Japanese SHMUP game that is released on it and is one of the few things he even plays on the system.
 

Dural

Member
Sep 18, 2006
607
400
1,210
Seriously though, the difference would still minor in terms of GPU, API is another matter as Vulkan is superior to DirectX 12 BS. Sony might even go further with a better ray-tracing solution, the "elegant" way. SSD WILL BE a big difference in how power is consumed as it can put MUCH less stress on CPU and GPU. Let's not forget that XSX also has unbalanced bandwidth speeds.
Wow, you are so far gone there's really no reason to even argue.
 

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Feb 10, 2020
2,638
11,726
665
34
Salalah, Oman
So where is the PS5 equivalent in that comparison? 2070 not shown...

As taxing as RT is, it remains to be seen what the CPU/GPU will actually run at considering there is a much lower base frequency that will boost where available.

So you're more looking at something between 2070 Super & 2080 vanilla with varying performance vs something in between the 2080 Super & 2080TI with locked performance.

Not to mention MS probably still has the ability to upclock anything they want at this point including a surprise Ram upgrade if they wanted to push the price a little.
2070 is 7.5 TF by the way, PS5 is 10.28 so it's slightly more than 2080. Varying has been explained by Cerny that would be 2-3% from each side, heat has nothing to do here as overall power consumption is capped.

So let's wait for the games and see how it pans out.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Cock of War

Flintty

Gold Member
Apr 24, 2014
3,544
1,294
815
UK
Fundamentally, games on Xbox will be limited due to all their games also being PC compatible where practically everyone is still running mech HDs/slow SSDs. XSX devs will never be able to take advantage of the SSD properly, even in their exclusives. It's going to be at least 4-7 years before SSDs will become the standard in PC-land. Not to mention the Xbone which their games also have to run on.

Bottom line is only on PS5 will we see developers truly pushing the new game ideas and concepts that are made possible by blazingly fast SSD. Not saying XSX isn't capable of doing what PS5 will do, just that you won't see it due to the issues I mentioned above.
I disagree with this. The likes of 343, Turn 10 etc. are going to squeeze every bit of capability out of the box. These games will be designed ground up for the XSX as a showcase. Anything less will be a mistake.
 
Last edited:

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Feb 10, 2020
2,638
11,726
665
34
Salalah, Oman
I disagree with this. The likes of 343, Turn 10 etc. are going to squeeze every bit of capability out of the box. These games will be designed ground up for the XSX as a showcase. Anything less will be a mistake.
Yeah, kinda forgot what Booty talked about: No exclusives for up to 2 years, all will work on Xbox One fat.

Tell me more about how is that "designed ground up for the XSX". By the time they make a true next gen game, it's time for mid-gen refresh models.

 
Last edited:

Flintty

Gold Member
Apr 24, 2014
3,544
1,294
815
UK
Yeah, kinda forgot what Booty talked about: No exclusives for up to 2 years, all will work on Xbox One fat.

Tell me more about how is that "designed ground up for the XSX". By the time they make a true next gen game, it's time for mid-gen refresh models.
I guess the proof will be in the pudding. Can’t wait to find out, to be honest!
 

Real_Agent_K

Banned
Mar 17, 2020
29
82
170
Yeah, kinda forgot what Booty talked about: No exclusives for up to 2 years, all will work on Xbox One fat.

Tell me more about how is that "designed ground up for the XSX". By the time they make a true next gen game, it's time for mid-gen refresh models.

I thought you were a PC guy though? PC's have far more advanced games that can scale across multiple different hardware sets without the issue of being "held back", it's actually the exact opposite. I honestly think you just use this to make a negative out of what, not ditching your millions of customers who will not instantly switch to the newer console? TIL that being pro cosumer is a negative.

It's almost as if we can't make 1080p textures and then make 4k textures :messenger_open_mouth:
 

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Feb 10, 2020
2,638
11,726
665
34
Salalah, Oman
I thought you were a PC guy though? PC's have far more advanced games that can scale across multiple different hardware sets without the issue of being "held back", it's actually the exact opposite. I honestly think you just use this to make a negative out of what, not ditching your millions of customers who will not instantly switch to the newer console? TIL that being pro cosumer is a negative.

It's almost as if we can't make 1080p textures and then make 4k textures :messenger_open_mouth:
Nah, I game for at least 8 hours straight when a good game hits, can extend for more than 24 hours for some great games. My PC while it's 100% optimized according to the book of ASUS motherboard without putting ANY part that's not approved by them, it crashes at least 2-4 times monthly, with generic usage. Convenience is the key here, I just can't see myself being PC gamer with all that hassle.

If my PC goal was 100% gaming, I'll be crying with all the master race guys around here that next gen consoles are shit :messenger_tears_of_joy: XSX is WAY more sensible than building a PC. But, big navi is INSANE for potential 8K or 4K raw video editing with 2TB/s bandwidth.
 
Last edited:

JTCx

is on threat of perm for trolling. Please report.
Feb 24, 2016
477
321
450
I grew up playing consoles in this order. Sega, Nintendo 64, PS1, PS2, Xbox, Xbox 360, Wii, Xbox One, X and now i'll be getting the SX. I have also grew up on Nintendo handhelds because what child born in the 90's didn't? I've had my fair share of all consoles so dont go there with bias
Like cool man can you send me your resume? Youre pretty badass with playing all those consoles in order.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Bladed Thesis

phil_t98

Member
Oct 10, 2014
2,205
1,500
490
Fundamentally, games on Xbox will be limited due to all their games also being PC compatible where practically everyone is still running mech HDs/slow SSDs. XSX devs will never be able to take advantage of the SSD properly, even in their exclusives. It's going to be at least 4-7 years before SSDs will become the standard in PC-land. Not to mention the Xbone which their games also have to run on.

Bottom line is only on PS5 will we see developers truly pushing the new game ideas and concepts that are made possible by blazingly fast SSD. Not saying XSX isn't capable of doing what PS5 will do, just that you won't see it due to the issues I mentioned above.
Well won’t 95% of games be limited then on ps5 as more games multi platform than exclusives so basicly in what your saying 95% of games on PS5 will be compromises because other platforms ssd not as good
 

hyperbertha

Member
Nov 24, 2018
661
1,606
385
No it's not. They explained how the ssd works but they never compared it to the xsx showing how the xsx is inferior in terms of games. Clearly, the ssd of the ps5 will offer faster loading times than the ssd of the xsx,. but as far as I can tell that's the only benefit that will be noticeable when comparing it to the xsx ssd. The current dog whistle and narrative is that the ps5 ssd tech is so amazing (I'm not saying it's not btw) but no one is explaining how it is so much more amazing than the xsx ssd and how the advantages will be shown is games...other than load time of course.
If the devs choose to use ps5's full 5gb/s bandwidth, then the scene in memory can have far more texture detail, shadow resolution, possibly polycount etc compared to the same scene in xbox seX. Its the equivalent of having much more memory. So no, its not just the loading screens.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 48086
Nov 5, 2016
21,960
39,420
1,085
One Big Room, Full Of Bad Bitches
If the devs choose to use ps5's full 5gb/s bandwidth, then the scene in memory can have far more texture detail, shadow resolution, possibly polycount etc compared to the same scene in xbox seX. Its the equivalent of having much more memory. So no, its not just the loading screens.
Don’t you need graphical processing power for that too though?
 

hyperbertha

Member
Nov 24, 2018
661
1,606
385
I disagree with this. The likes of 343, Turn 10 etc. are going to squeeze every bit of capability out of the box. These games will be designed ground up for the XSX as a showcase. Anything less will be a mistake.
not if they want to release those games on PC.
 

48086

Member
Jan 10, 2017
641
1,095
500
If the devs choose to use ps5's full 5gb/s bandwidth, then the scene in memory can have far more texture detail, shadow resolution, possibly polycount etc compared to the same scene in xbox seX. Its the equivalent of having much more memory. So no, its not just the loading screens.
Got it, thanks!
 

hyperbertha

Member
Nov 24, 2018
661
1,606
385
Don’t you need graphical processing power for that too though?
Certain aspects like texture resolution put very little burden on the GPU. However, other aspects like a higher polycount can strain fps, so theoretically, in terms of polycount, the PS5 will have an advantage over xbox only in scenes where the Xbox is limited by memory.
 

Krappadizzle

Member
Oct 4, 2011
12,877
1,699
1,080
No, but people are still trying to rationalize a way that makes it better than it is.

Amazing, stunning looking games were made with pretty weak hardware over the last 7 years. Even with PS5 being the weaker of the bunch, it's still gonna make incredible looking games. But people trying to say the PC will be playing catch up are delusional. A new SSD standard isn't gonna change how graphics are rendered to such a degree that it makes up for lesser hardware. The same people saying the PS5 will be a top dog because of an SSD are the same people that fell hard for all the bullshit leaks because it matches what they have in their mind, not what reality is. Cognitive dissonance at it's finest.
 

Kenpachii

Member
Mar 23, 2018
4,478
4,754
620
If the devs choose to use ps5's full 5gb/s bandwidth, then the scene in memory can have far more texture detail, shadow resolution, possibly polycount etc compared to the same scene in xbox seX. Its the equivalent of having much more memory. So no, its not just the loading screens.
That's not the case and that's not what cerny mentioned also. All the data has to go through the memory and that will be the limitation at all times on the screen. If you think u can throw far more detail into a scene then the memory can hold the framerate will utterly die out because SSD cannot be used as Ram. Then also all the stuff you mention will give a hit on the GPU and that's exactly where the xbox series x shine.

What the SSD as cerny mentioned is going to shine on is loading speed and maybe a reduction in ( well it will reduce ) the game size on a blu-ray disc for example because they no longer have to write lots of the same shit everywhere as lots of duplicates have to be made to improve streaming speed on current drives.
 
Last edited:

hyperbertha

Member
Nov 24, 2018
661
1,606
385
That's not the case and that's not what cerny mentioned also. All the data has to go through the memory and that will be the limitation at all times on the screen. Of you think u can throw far more detail into a scene then the memory can hold the framerate will utterly die out because SSD cannot be used as Ram.
The whole point of the new SSD is that its as fast as memory. Its exactly what Cerny explained. Of course any detail in the scene will still be limited to how much the gpu can render at acceptable frame rates.
 

Kenpachii

Member
Mar 23, 2018
4,478
4,754
620
The whole point of the new SSD is that its as fast as memory. Its exactly what Cerny explained. Of course any detail in the scene will still be limited to how much the gpu can render at acceptable frame rates.
U didn't look at the pressentation then if you come to that conclusion. The SSD is nowhere near as fast as memory.
 

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Feb 10, 2020
2,638
11,726
665
34
Salalah, Oman
Don’t you need graphical processing power for that too though?
Nope, it's like you go to a restaurant, and you can panic order appetizer, main dish, dessert at the same time with XSX, yet you'll just eat one at a time as you got one mouth, put PS5 cam order them one by one BLAZINGLY FAST that you don't need to have a "bigger" table to hold all of them at once.
 

Handy Fake

Gold Member
Mar 2, 2014
3,918
1,586
680
Sunderland
The whole point of the new SSD is that its as fast as memory. Its exactly what Cerny explained. Of course any detail in the scene will still be limited to how much the gpu can render at acceptable frame rates.
Aye, it negates a lot of things that have to be held in RAM at the moment, freeing up space. It's a bottleneck remover/RAM optimiser.

At least that's how I understood what he was saying.
 

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
Feb 10, 2020
2,638
11,726
665
34
Salalah, Oman
Looks like you will be missing out on the likes of this though, shame. Slower SSD or not, i see an unreal looking game there.

That'll on Big Navi with 80CU's, 24GB ram, and much better system when it hits :messenger_sunglasses: I hope Halo turns out to being a good game, don't wanna waste my $10.
 

Filippos

Banned
Mar 18, 2020
191
390
175
Nope, it's like you go to a restaurant, and you can panic order appetizer, main dish, dessert at the same time with XSX, yet you'll just eat one at a time as you got one mouth, put PS5 cam order them one by one BLAZINGLY FAST that you don't need to have a "bigger" table to hold all of them at once.


just stop. its getting embarrassing.
 

Kenpachii

Member
Mar 23, 2018
4,478
4,754
620
I implore you to go through that part of the presentation again.
Show me where he says it, i will wait. I watched the ssd part multiple times over and this is what he mentions.

1) boot game in a second ( faster loading )
2) no load screens ( faster loading )
3) faster loading in next area's without needing hold up content, because faster drive that can feed the memory. ( faster loading )
4) no publicated data on the SSD and DISC ( smaller space required then sony games do right now ) because u can stream data in more easier.
5) faster patch installs to the point they almost disappear and this is right because i have the same thing on my 3,5gb ssd, if you got enough speed u can do stuff all together instead of waiting on every task.

Then he goes into the material about a better costum chip for the SSD to optimize it and compression + hardware that is needed to get that ball rolling.

Edit

If you talk about the part where he comes forwards with next gen paradigm where he explains SSD functions in some ways more like ram, yes you could say it like that. But in no way it can function as ram even while in some ways it functions more like ram if you compare it towards the HDD he did just before hand. That's what he was mentioning.

Because if he would have said it, he would have been straight up lying as that's not possible even remotely technology wise.

That's the issue with any SSD, no matter how fast he makes it or not. It's kinda pointless because the things that need to be speed up the most isn't the gb's but the access time mainly and that's where SSD suck balls in for stuff u would want to have in ram.

Cerny is specifically talking about to speed up loading times as much as possible as they want to eliminate loading and that's exactly what they are trying to do and go out with a blazing fast SSD and costum hardware to get that ball rolling even further.

However his SSD will perform just as poorly as any SSD for ram purposes. That's also why he moved over that point and never came back towards it.

Will SSD improve ram management yes. But any SSD will do that as u can feed information faster into it. This is why on some PC titles u already need a SSD to get smooth performance.
 
Last edited:

CJY

Banned
Jan 8, 2016
2,563
5,614
725
Well won’t 95% of games be limited then on ps5 as more games multi platform than exclusives so basicly in what your saying 95% of games on PS5 will be compromises because other platforms ssd not as good
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And 100% of games on Xbox will be held back.
 

hyperbertha

Member
Nov 24, 2018
661
1,606
385
Show me where he says it, i will wait. I watched the ssd part multiple times over and this is what he mentions.

1) boot game in a second ( faster loading )
2) no load screens ( faster loading )
3) faster loading in next area's without needing hold up content, because faster drive that can feed the memory. ( faster loading )
4) no publicated data on the SSD and DISC ( smaller space required then sony games do right now ) because u can stream data in more easier.
5) faster patch installs to the point they almost disappear and this is right because i have the same thing on my 3,5gb ssd, if you got enough speed u can do stuff all together instead of waiting on every task.

Then he goes into the material about a better costum chip for the SSD to optimize it and compression + hardware that is needed to get that ball rolling.
Here is a ND developer's explanation since you won't believe me:
 
  • Fire
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

njean777

Member
Mar 12, 2009
9,821
286
1,025
Lets be honest with ourselves the SSD's in these systems will be just for faster loading times, that is about it. Just like they are used today on PC's (gaming wise). Developers (other than 1st party) are not gonna take the extra time to do most of this fancy stuff that people are parroting.

We will see less pop-in, and faster loading times. Thats is all you really need. The updated specs of both consoles will result in better resolutions and better performance (hopefully).
 
Sep 29, 2011
2,487
593
700
I think that, for most console-exclusive gamers, the improvements in graphics will be potentially far enough ahead of what they have come to expect that the differences won't be all that noticeable. They'll both produce games that look amazing, I'm sure. Maybe later on in the gen, when folks become accustomed and start to want more, they'll notice the XsX pulling ahead consistently in multi-plat graphics/fps.

Edit: It's a bit like taking people who are used to driving an acura and asking them if they are upset their next car is a ferrari instead of a lamborghini.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Mister D