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[Gavin Stevens]

Its only first party. No third party developers need to release for the old consoles.

yeah but this literally just affects first party games... no 3rd party dev needs to do this...

The fact that not only has this been repeated a dozen times in this thread alone, but that it’s been said on official MS channels, should show you what you are dealing with.

Some people really don’t understand, and that’s fine. But some do, and will just ignore these points to fit a narrative.

It’s all a bit naff really.

 

[EDMIX]

History tells us that Battlefield 4 was the most bugged launch a game ever had.

This 100%. I as much as I love BF4, that games launch is easily the worst launch of a BF title in the companies history. It took well over a year plus to even get it fully playable online without much issues. EA started to even boast about delaying their games to ensure people it wouldn't be a buggy launch as BF4 made a very bad name for the publisher with rushed launches just to hit numbers. So cross gen with titles like BF4 or Shadow Of Mordor or Watchdogs shows that you can't really have your cake and eat it too. More bad things come up then good and you end up just having this last gen title that looks slightly better on new systems, then a TRUE next gen title.

I have no clue why anyone would try to argue holding back an entire generation for several damn years to make games using the XBONE as a base, thats one of the craziest things I've ever seen debated on here in a very long time.

Whats the point of a new systems if games are not even being made to use it 100%, simply made to port from XONE? That didn't make XBONE X games "next gen" anymore then it did PS4 Pro, so if they are just going to make XONE games and simply try to scale them, imho.....those are last gen games, calling them "cross gen" to me is simply semantics.....they are LAST GEN GAMES!

By that logic, I guess every game on PS4 Pro and XB One X is "next gen". So I'm not spending money on a new system to just play games that already exist on a system I already own.....

D DaMonsta no it wasn't. I defend BF series on here like no other and I can tell you 100% that game had massive issues at launch and was no where NEAR Killzone SF in terms of a next gen game, it was a pretty port of a last gen game. The series didn't get a REAL next gen release until BF Hardline, BF1, BFV etc. It would be like trying to argue that game Gun on 360 is the same as Red Dead Redemption 1 or something. (ignoring Gun is a PS2 port)

Gavin Stevens Ok, but I haven't seen much on here of users thinking it means all 3rd party games, I think we know it means first party as its MS as a publisher doing this. I don't think it matters either way. The concern is still valid. Its a HUGE reason to not buy this system at launch.

 

[DaMonsta]

It's pretty sad you're using a dual account on Neogaf to console war.

The hell r u talking about. Lol

Seems like projection to me. Chill out buddy.

 

[DaMonsta]

This 100%. I as much as I love BF4, that games launch is easily the worst launch of a BF title in the companies history. It took well over a year plus to even get it fully playable online without much issues. EA started to even boast about delaying their games to ensure people it wouldn't be a buggy launch as BF4 made a very bad name for the publisher with rushed launches just to hit numbers. So cross gen with titles like BF4 or Shadow Of Mordor or Watchdogs shows that you can't really have your cake and eat it too. More bad things come up then good and you end up just having this last gen title that looks slightly better on new systems, then a TRUE next gen title.

I have no clue why anyone would try to argue holding back an entire generation for several damn years to make games using the XBONE as a base, thats one of the craziest things I've ever seen debated on here in a very long time.

Whats the point of a new systems if games are not even being made to use it 100%, simply made to port from XONE? That didn't make XBONE X games "next gen" anymore then it did PS4 Pro, so if they are just going to make XONE games and simply try to scale them, imho.....those are last gen games, calling them "cross gen" to me is simply semantics.....they are LAST GEN GAMES!

By that logic, I guess every game on PS4 Pro and XB One X is "next gen". So I'm not spending money on a new system to just play games that already exist on a system I already own.....

D DaMonsta no it wasn't. I defend BF series on here like no other and I can tell you 100% that game had massive issues at launch and was no where NEAR Killzone SF in terms of a next gen game, it was a pretty port of a last gen game. The series didn't get a REAL next gen release until BF Hardline, BF1, BFV etc. It would be like trying to argue that game Gun on 360 is the same as Red Dead Redemption 1 or something. (ignoring Gun is a PS2 port)

What is it that made Killzone more next gen than BF4? Bugs aside?

From what I see BF4 was the first to have some of the features that defined “next gen”

60 FPS, large player counts, destruction.

Killzone just had good graphics.

 

[EDMIX]

What is it that made Killzone more next gen than BF4? Bugs aside?

From what I see BF4 was the first to have some of the features that defined “next gen”

60 FPS, large player counts, destruction.

Killzone just had good graphics.

60 FPS was also because it was a port from last gen. Titanfall was made on Source engine and had a 360 version as to why it was running 60fps on XONE, it would be like trying to say The Last Of Us remaster is "next gen" ignoring its a port and not created for PS4 100% like The Last Of Us 2.

So running 60fps 1080p funny enough is a sign it was a last gen port in the first place...

Killzone SF tech was pushing the PS4 as to why it wasn't running those fancy numbers. The tech in that is what you see in Horizon Zero Dawn, Death Stranding etc.

 

[ethomaz]

What is it that made Killzone more next gen than BF4? Bugs aside?

From what I see BF4 was the first to have some of the features that defined “next gen”

60 FPS, large player counts, destruction.

Killzone just had good graphics.

You knows these "next gen" features you listed are in old-gen PS360 version of the game too.

 

[01011001]

You knows these "next gen" features you listed are in PS360 version of the game too.

they are not. last gen versions were 30 fps with reduced physics and reduced player counts. they also looked like complete ass because of how reduced they were graphically

 

[DaMonsta]

60 FPS was also because it was a port from last gen. Titanfall was made on Source engine and had a 360 version as to why it was running 60fps on XONE, it would be like trying to say The Last Of Us remaster is "next gen" ignoring its a port and not created for PS4 100% like The Last Of Us 2.

So running 60fps 1080p funny enough is a sign it was a last gen port in the first place...

Killzone SF tech was pushing the PS4 as to why it wasn't running those fancy numbers. The tech in that is what you see in Horizon Zero Dawn, Death Stranding etc.

What “tech” are you referring to?

You knows these "next gen" features you listed are in PS360 version of the game too.

no they aren’t.

 

[ethomaz]

they are not. last gen versions were 30 fps with reduced physics and reduced player counts. they also looked like complete ass because of how reduced they were graphically

You got me on the player count.
But the game did not run at 60fps on PS4 (perhaps XB1?)... I played it.

It fluctuate over 30fps with avg. at max 40-50fps.

It was blurry too... really blurry image quality.

What “tech” are you referring to?

The CBR that everybody is using in the industry now (nVidia DSLL) was fist done by Killzone Shadown Fall on MP.

PS. I don't like CBR and the implementation in Killzone was really bad making the MP unplayable to me.

 

[01011001]

What “tech” are you referring to?

it looks pretty... that's pretty much all it did... and wasn't even able to hold 1080p60 in multiplayer...

You got me on the player count.
But the game did not run at 60fps on PS4 (perhaps XB1?)... I played it.

It fluctuate over 30fps with avg. at max 40-50fps.

It was blurry too... really blurry image quality.

it wasn't perfect, but most games aren't so...

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

60 FPS was also because it was a port from last gen. Titanfall was made on Source engine and had a 360 version as to why it was running 60fps on XONE, it would be like trying to say The Last Of Us remaster is "next gen" ignoring its a port and not created for PS4 100% like The Last Of Us 2.

So running 60fps 1080p funny enough is a sign it was a last gen port in the first place...

Killzone SF tech was pushing the PS4 as to why it wasn't running those fancy numbers. The tech in that is what you see in Horizon Zero Dawn, Death Stranding etc.

Christ Almighty. Still looks impressive TODAY, no seriously, I'm shook, haven't seen that footage since about 2014. Yet people try to claim there was nothing that pushed the envelope at PS4 launch!! Crazy stuff.

 

[EDMIX]

Christ Almighty. Still looks impressive TODAY, no seriously, I'm shook, haven't seen that footage since about 2014. Yet people try to claim there was nothing that pushed the envelope at PS4 launch!! Crazy stuff.

Pretty much and I like BF4, but Killzone SF smoked that game in terms of actually being a next gen game at that time vs a port. It gave us a great taste of what we would be seeing going forward. Killzone SF, BF4 and Knack where my first PS4 titles, got one of them for free when Target had that buy 2 get 1 free sale before PS4 and XONE came out lol

Though I like BF4 better based on being a HUGE BF fan, Killzone and Knack where the 2 actual real next gen games I was playing that actually clearly could not be made on PS3 as to why they were not on PS3, yet BF4 was on PS3, 360 etc. The way I see it, like The Last Of Us....if it can run on last gen, it is last gen...., I adore the game, just like I like BF4, doesn't make them next gen games. So BF4 in terms of just tech doesn't hold a candle to BFV, BF1 or Battlefront 1, 2 etc no different then The Last Of Us port isn't going to come NEAR Uncharted 4 or The Last Of Us 2 or any of that nonsense, no different then Watchdogs 2 in terms of tech smokes Watchdogs 1. You can only go sooooooo far with a last gen port, it would be like trying to say GTA V on PS4 is the same as Red Dead Redemption 2 or something. So by no means do I hate those remasters or ports, but they are nothing more then remasters and ports, they are not current generation titles like Killzone SF, Knack, Driveclub, Watchdogs 2, Red Dead 2, The last Of Us 2, Death Stranding etc

 

[JLB]

Some people seem to not be understanding the main point here. Everyone knows games can be built to scale with hardware when it comes to things like resolution, lighting, shadows, AA, AO, all all the other whizz bang options. That's not the point being presented.

Look at Destiny, Anthem (heh) , The Division, or many games today that have all these artificial barriers, arbitrary load points, maximum tile size per zone or area, etc.. Designers after dreaming up their game have to build in these annoying immersion breaking gimmicks or just design their game to conform to whatever restrictions the hardware limits them to.

So lets say Bungie makes Destiny 3 in a whole new engine, a whole new way because PS5 and Series X and PC dont require these handcuffs to the old ways of level design. But by Microsoft insisting all games on their ecosystem must scale up and down existing Xbox SKUs they are limiting their developers from taking off those last gen handcuffs. You still have to design your game in a way XBox One can participate.

So yeah sure, your series X version will have 4k textures, god Ray's, high framerates, super high AA, better reflections shadows and a ray traced kitchen sink, but the game will still be just souped up incarnation of a game conceived and designed to play within the limitations of what a 2013 Xbox One can manage. Imaginations/creativity will still be limited by and subject to what the OG Xbox One can be programmed to draw or whatever. It's not the end of the world, but it is somewhat a limiting factor for Xbox creators out of the gates that Sony's developers wont have to consider.

yeah, i fully agree, although, and mixing what you said with booty’s comment I guess that there wont be many games during the first or second year of next gen that will implement such innovative ideas.
Assasins Creed Unity comes to my mind. Thats the first game, as far as i can tell that truly tried to do something different this generation in terms of a complex, crowded and immersive open world. Most probably Unity would be impossible to port to 360, ps4 or even Switch. I guess we wont see the next ‘Unity’ on next gen until 2021 or so.

 

[Humdinger]

They will transition it over to xcloud for the older platforms once it's ready. So they will still get access to new games on GamePass even if their hardware isn't capable of running it locally.

So let me see if I understand this right (I haven't been keeping up with Xcloud news). Are you saying that Xcloud will be capable of streaming truly next-gen games -- something built from the ground up to take advantage of the new CPU, GPU, SSD, etc. -- using old Xbox One S hardware?

 

[JLB]

So let me see if I understand this right (I haven't been keeping up with Xcloud news). Are you saying that Xcloud will be capable of streaming truly next-gen games -- something built from the ground up to take advantage of the new CPU, GPU, SSD, etc. -- using old Xbox One S hardware?

im pretty sure next gen games will eventually be streamable through xcloud even on smart tvs/mobile phones.

 

[Grinchy]

Christ Almighty. Still looks impressive TODAY, no seriously, I'm shook, haven't seen that footage since about 2014. Yet people try to claim there was nothing that pushed the envelope at PS4 launch!! Crazy stuff.

The multiplayer was a lot of fun, too. It was actually a great launch game for the PS4.

People who didn't like it either didn't play it or were more entranced by BF4's auto-aiming magnetism where you put the cursor somewhere in the vicinity of an enemy, hit L2, lock on, and spray R2. Killzone didn't use magnetism and it turned some people off.

 

[Humdinger]

im pretty sure next gen games will eventually be streamable through xcloud even on smart tvs/mobile phones.

I suppose anything could be streamed theoretically on any service, but I guess the question then is what sort of compromises are we talking about? I'm assuming we are not talking about a truly next-gen Halo game being streamed to a cell phone with zero compromises in performance and visual quality.

And I suppose that question extends to Xcloud streaming to the Xbox One S. I wonder what sort of compromises would be involved. I guess that's a hard question to answer in the abstract and this far out.

 

[JLB]

I suppose anything could be streamed theoretically on any service, but I guess the question then is what sort of compromises are we talking about? I'm assuming we are not talking about a truly next-gen Halo game being streamed to a cell phone with zero compromises in performance and visual quality.

And I suppose that question extends to Xcloud streaming to the Xbox One S. I wonder what sort of compromises would be involved. I guess that's a hard question to answer in the abstract and this far out.

well, the compromises you might expect from any streaming service: worst input lag, visual artifacts due to compression, always online requirement. But the hardware is not the key factor, proximity to a datacenter and a good, stable internet connection are.

 

[GHG]

So let me see if I understand this right (I haven't been keeping up with Xcloud news). Are you saying that Xcloud will be capable of streaming truly next-gen games -- something built from the ground up to take advantage of the new CPU, GPU, SSD, etc. -- using old Xbox One S hardware?

It will run on series X equivalent hardware on servers and be streamed to your TV via the Xbox One S. In the most simple terms, the Xbox One S is just the decoder in this equation, it doesn't do any heavy lifting.

They want xcloud to work across all currently available Xbox consoles and even mobile phones etc.

 

[Allandor]

Also ssd and raytracing core gameplay relevant uses would have to be abandoned.

There is still things that can be added in next gen, like destructible complex open world environments. With the added gpgpu and cpu power far more interactive environments may be possible.

actually it is quite easy. It is hard to optimize, yes but not that hard to strip something down.
Destructable environment ... dream on . Won't be happening so soon (not more than there is already on the market). The thing is, it won't be pretty, just like the witcher on switch.
Yes, there will be games that try to use the whole processing power, but that's needs time.

 

[Journey]

Anybody saying devs can just “scale” to old hardware have no idea how much time and resources take to do that.

Are you paying for this? Just curious why you're so concerned as if it were coming out of your pocket and why Xbox Game Studios shouldn't invest on the "Brand" which is what they're doing?

90% of you are just concern trolling. You have users like Neofirezero and Coulomb_Barrier (whom do not even plan on buying an Xbox Series X and are all in on PS5) high five'ing each other on how PS5 exclusives will look better because Sony is forcing gamers who invested in the PlayStation brand to now have to buy their new shinny piece of plastic in order to buy in to their new games that could've also worked fine on PS4. Probably the same guys who criticized BC and gladly paid for re-released remasters that Sony double dipped rather than having you play your already purchased titles for free via the BC built in to the PS4 that they were hiding.

This decision is good for anyone who invested in Xbox. I remember when Xbox 360 was launching and everyone was crying about how they cut the generation short and back-stabbed gamers. How dare MS abandon Xbox in just 4 years? then when MS supported 360 for 8 years, 1 year longer than PlayStation, it was too long, and now that they're not abandoning the previous generation, it's "Bad for gamers" somehow.

To bottom line is, some games will look good, some games will look amazing and others will look awful WHETHER OR NOT they're designed to support multi-platforms. Some of the best looking games this gen were designed with multi platforms in mind.

Historically launch titles haven't really showcased properly what a new console can truly achieve, why not take this time period to allow a smooth transition and give recent Xbox One S or X purchasers time to move on?

Do we really want to sacrifice the availability of a game to achieve Gundam Crossfire (PS3) or Godzilla(PS4)???

Only on PS3, yet looks like a PS2 or even a PS1 title, holy crap! Bingo, there's a complex set of wheels that need to be set in motion when it comes to game development and great visuals and gameplay mechanics, far beyond whether a game has to support just one console or many platforms.

Forcing a game to work on a single platform does NOT guarantee success.

Gundam Crossfire PS3

Godzilla PS4

 

[Humdinger]

It will run on series X equivalent hardware on servers and be streamed to your TV via the Xbox One S. In the most simple terms, the Xbox One S is just the decoder in this equation, it doesn't do any heavy lifting.

They want xcloud to work across all currently available Xbox consoles and even mobile phones etc.

That's interesting. I didn't realize that the hardware which received the stream played no real role in the quality of what the user sees.