rnlval
Member
XSS support could be causing game design issues for XSX i.e. the lowest common denominator problem. PS5's performance is the baseline when targeting the PS5 platform.
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Digital Foundry about XSX teraflops advantage : It's kinda all blowing up in the face of Xbox Series X
- Thread starter Bernoulli
- Start date
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
According to Digital Foundry, Microsoft told Digital Foundry this before the launch -- that Series S is Microsoft's next-gen console and Series X is the mid-gen refresh / the Pro version of Gen 9 console.
PaintTinJr
Member
I had it in my head that provided the ACE count per TF was balanced - like it is with the PS4/Pro - compute shaders could be used asynchronously with clever packing/unpacking to utilise the FP32 flops for RPM to a similar benefit, but I can't find any papers on that, so that's clearly wrong.
rnlval
Member
Xbox One has a custom DX12 micro coding front end along with the two ACEs and two GCP (Graphics Command Processor) units.
Microsoft's Andrew Goossen has been in touch to clarify that D3D12 support at the hardware level is actually a part of the existing Xbox One and Xbox One S too. "Scorpio builds on the Command Processor capability present in the original Xbox One," we're told. "Our implementation of D3D12 supports all Xbox Ones, and games have already shipped that use it. When a game using D3D12 starts up, we reprogram the GPU's Command Processor front-end. The 50 percent CPU rendering overhead improvement was reported by shipping games. The amount of win is dependent on the game engine and content, and not all games will see that size of improvement. Scorpio's Command Processor provides additional capability and programmability beyond what Xbox One/Xbox One S can do. We plan to take advantage of this in the future
There were hints back in the day from a slide of Frostbite Engine with a one-line statement with "Xbox One has command processor microcode support".
"The HWS (Hardware Workgroup/Wavefront Schedulers) are essentially ACE pipelines that are configured without dispatch controllers. Their job is to offload the CPU by handling the scheduling of user/driver queues on the available hardware queue slots. They are microcode-programmable processors that can implement a variety of scheduling policies. We used them to implement the Quick Response Queue and CU Reservation features in Polaris, and we were able to port those changes to third-generation GCN products with driver updates."
PC R7-265 has the luxury of a strong desktop X86 CPU.
MilkyJoe
Member
This gen doesn't need a pro, barely fucking anything has happened yet as it is
Physiognomonics
Member
Those trees are completely different on XSX. It's like those are'nt even nanite enabled. Same thing for basically most objects on the background at the house level. Difference of details is significant. I wonder if XSX simply uses XSS settings... So they would have optimized Fortnite on XSS and up the res on XSX and called it a day.
mansoor1980
Gold Member
any remnant2 differences between ps5 and xsx? that game is also pushing lods and nanites
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
XSX is literally missing an entire tree.
Less tessellation as well. Why are you doing this?
winjer
Gold Member
It's probably the nanite setting for triangle density per pixel: r.Nanite.MaxPixelsPerEdge
Why? Could be lower geometry throughput. Or lower draw calls, due to higher overhead. Or even the rasterization on nanite.
PaintTinJr
Member
Each ACE could handle 8 queues - both by AMD GPU info and PS4 tech specs wiki - so even though it wasn't optimised like the Liverpool use of ACEs to avoid contention,
The two ACEs were probably adequate for the X1 with the ESram/DDR4 being the main bottleneck, so it isn't like they could have benefitted from having more ACEs for higher throughput
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Good thing it will be optional then for people like yourself and I don't blame anyone who doesn't feel the need to buy it
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HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Yeah, the PS5 is clearly superior there.
Since you "lol"
DaGwaphics
, care to explain why? The images are clear about the distinction.
DaGwaphics
Member
It's Fortnite, which I don't play. Are the trees always in the same place? Did someone come by and chop that tree down? I don't know.
But, anyway, the images look practically identical under similar conditions without the zoom as expected. Which was my point to begin with that the painfully bad initial comparison made the XSX look comparatively worse than it should have.
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DaGwaphics
Member
Yeah, the PS5 is clearly superior there.
Since you "lol"
Anyone that thinks there is a meaningful difference between the shots (with the similar lighting) has a mental illness, full stop. LOL The shots with entirely different lighting really aren't very comparable.
That doesn't mean there are no difference it means there is nothing that anyone is going to notice while playing Fortnite on Xbox. It's like comparing a game that is 1440p on one system and 1800p on another, there will be a technical difference but in motion with no zoom, no one is noticing that if other settings are similar. These are differences that do not matter. If the XSX version didn't have trees or they were using cardboard billboards for them you'd be on to something.
There might be some people that count trees in Fortnite, but probably not that many.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Yes, the threes are in the same spots. No, it would have left a big stump.
And it looks just like the night shot. Lower tesselation (geometry) and less vegetation.
That is not the argument.
The thread topic was about how the mental gymnastics from DF and those who pretend to be experts, could not wrap their heads around the fact the two consoles have been trading blows and are more about the sum of their parts, depending on what rendering techniques are favored in the engines.
Something that was the opposite of what was being propagated by DF, fantards, etc.. Where as devs have stated this and were laughed or shrugged off.
It be what it be.
"A rising tide lifts all boats." "Pretty cool, right?"
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DaGwaphics
Member
I was commenting more on how an uglier angle had been chosen (because of the lighting) for the XSX in the initial images. I wasn't referencing the missing tree or triangles, just the fact that the lack of self shadowing on the Xbox shot was flattening the trees and the building that was there because it was from an "uglier time of day" for that specific spot. The first shot was creating a bigger visual difference because of the lighting changes.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
The problem is xss isn't the lowest denominator for every Xbox 'exclusive'.
Lysandros
Member
- Shouldn't those important GPGPU customizations also be present in PS5? Wouldn't they be required for BC at least? In a similar fashion to PS4 PRO's hardware ID buffer for which we have confirmation?
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
What you call a mental illness I call using what was provided to me in the womb. My eyes see a clear difference. Minimize it how you choose, that doesn't make you any less delusional.
The point is the XSX was supposed to show a notable advantage thanks to its superior graphics card. Most games do not show this disparity (and actually have favored the PS5 on plenty of occasions). Again, no way to minimize that unless you take a personal stake in this — and that is a you problem.
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Bogroll
Likes moldy games
What you mean like the tree missing on the left of the PS5 pic ?
Or the missing sign on the post to the left.
Played on Ps5 and SX. Ps5 seem to suffer from frame drops more often but then again that could have been number of players in the area.
The quality of Nanite in Fortnite (UE5) looks better in the PS5 version.
Or the missing sign on the post to the left.
This game is dynamic dependant upon the number of players in the area.I couldn't find it because the city was updated.Please check the image below instead.In this scene, the PS5 version was more rounded, and I could see more leaves.
The location is SLAPPY SHORES.
Played on Ps5 and SX. Ps5 seem to suffer from frame drops more often but then again that could have been number of players in the area.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Bullshit. I've seen both (my good friend plays on her X) and they both are locked at 60. Only drops I see is when they lower dance animations themselves, but the game is buttery smooth all the time.
Bogroll
Likes moldy games
Bullshit you. They do drop frames.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Bullshit your bullshit you.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Fair enough — but as an owner of both, I've not seen any difference between the two in that regard. Both have a hitch here and there.
Bogroll
Likes moldy games
Yeah right. Get in a car and drive is a easy one to see frame drops.
Bogroll
Likes moldy games
had it in fire fight in one town.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Just a reminder that with differences this close (and PS5 having any visual advantages at all), it's still a win for the weaker console. And that is the jist of this topic.
Bogroll
Likes moldy games
Sx is the weakest. TF don't mean anything. PS5 higher mhz clock etc.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Frame drops or streaming in assets? I never noticed the drops, really. On either one.
I noticed animations being halved.
Bogroll
Likes moldy games
I did think streaming assets at first but then I got in a car drove around a town. And the frames will drop. And when there was a few players having a shootout.
The area with the Purple squid, there is always a car to the left of it. One time it was there, a shootout started, went out of view for about 10 seconds car gone. Did the same again car reappeared. Game assets seem dynamic.
RobRSG
Member
About the missing tree, anyone who ever played Fortnite knows that any building or tree is farmable for materials.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Yes, and it leaves a stump. No stump present.
But it's probably dynamic like mentioned before if these shots weren't taken from the same game time through cross-play.
its the same clown show as always with these people.
they have an insatiable impulse for defending anything and everything microsoft related (for free as well, mind you)
i wouldn’t bother
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
I'm going to make sure we mark that, as you're obviously the only one who thinks this.
In reality, the SX's graphics card is more powerful, system has more CUs, and a higher texture rate. I said nothing about teraflops. Yes, the PS5 has advantages, but no one argued otherwise. The entire point of this thread is to highlight the fact that the Series X is overall more powerful, and yet, not to the degree that was earlier suggested.
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DaGwaphics
Member
Changed it for you. The GPUs in the systems are different, the wideness of the XSX can give it some resolution bumps and boost the frames at times, while the peak triangles available to PS5 GPU can give it some advantages and some fps wins of its own as can the IO difference. The question becomes whether or not the differences are substantive or not, I don't believe they are and you do that is the impasse.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
You can change what ever you'd like, but you're still lying to yourself. Your overall approach in fact is your problem. I'm simply going by the facts.
Fact: XSX has a stronger graphics card
Fact: Based on those pics, Fortnite looks better on PS5
What ever scale you use to judge the level of importance is irrelevant. I said I saw differences, doesn't matter how big or small. They're there.
DaGwaphics
Member
That right there is your fatal flaw. The XSX has a wider front-end, the PS5 actually has a more performant back-end (similar structure but faster). This is what makes your argument so poor.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Fatal flaw?
No. I couldn't care less which one has the advantage, but if we're going to now pretend that XSX hasn't been touted as the stronger of the two, and just lie to ourselves to attempt an argument victory (and, again, completely ignore the point of this thread), then hey, do you.
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Maybe. This is from Eurogamers 2020 interview with Mark Cerny.
PlayStation 4 Pro was built to deliver higher performance than its base counterpart in order to open the door to 4K display support, but compatibility was key. A 'butterfly' GPU configuration was deployed which essentially doubled up on the graphics core, but clock speeds aside, the CPU had to remain the same - the Zen core was not an option. For PS5, extra logic is added to the RDNA 2 GPU to ensure compatibility with PS4 and PS4 Pro, but how about the CPU side of the equation?
Advertisement
"All of the game logic created for Jaguar CPUs works properly on Zen 2 CPUs, but the timing of execution of instructions can be substantially different," Mark Cerny tells us. "We worked to AMD to customise our particular Zen 2 cores; they have modes in which they can more closely approximate Jaguar timing. We're keeping that in our back pocket, so to speak, as we proceed with the backwards compatibility work."
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive
On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …
www.eurogamer.net
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
So, if they go with a Zen 4 design for the Pro, everything will work out well.Maybe. This is from Eurogamers 2020 interview with Mark Cerny.
PlayStation 4 Pro was built to deliver higher performance than its base counterpart in order to open the door to 4K display support, but compatibility was key. A 'butterfly' GPU configuration was deployed which essentially doubled up on the graphics core, but clock speeds aside, the CPU had to remain the same - the Zen core was not an option. For PS5, extra logic is added to the RDNA 2 GPU to ensure compatibility with PS4 and PS4 Pro, but how about the CPU side of the equation?
Advertisement
"All of the game logic created for Jaguar CPUs works properly on Zen 2 CPUs, but the timing of execution of instructions can be substantially different," Mark Cerny tells us. "We worked to AMD to customise our particular Zen 2 cores; they have modes in which they can more closely approximate Jaguar timing. We're keeping that in our back pocket, so to speak, as we proceed with the backwards compatibility work."
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive
On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …
Belthazar
Member
And we probably won't at all
DaGwaphics
Member
Fatal flaw?
People can certainly misinterpret specs. And the XSX does have a relatively substantial GPU lead in terms of the peak output of the compute units and it shows in games that are stressing that part of the GPU, sometimes more noticeable than others. But, the PS5 has always had it's own statistical advantages (some of those equally substantial) and those advantages also bear fruit. Thus the game by game differences. You can go back to the very early posts in the tech thread, I've always assumed that the systems were going to trade blows, the opinions of others is outside my control.
DaGwaphics
Member
It seems like my post questioning the differences in object placement across the different platforms got removed (I guess off topic), but why?
We seriously need to get a cross platform match going around this location, someone needs to put a video together of both sides of a game (both PS5 and Xbox footage and Switch or anything else they put together). Like really, are people hiding behind objects that don't exist in all versions of the game? Or standing around hacking at air to gain resources from the perspective of Xbox players.
That would be too funny. There is potential views in this for some YT personality. LOL, someone get on that.
For all the time it's been out, this seems like something fundamentally broken in the cross-platform/cross-generational design of the Fortnite game. How are the basic structures of the game world not being included for everyone in a match, since people are saying there is no procedural processes involved with the map (for major objects that are large enough to hide players, sources of resources, etc. - not talking about the density of grass blades or anything superfluous like that - just the major objects that could occlude players or objects)?
We seriously need to get a cross platform match going around this location, someone needs to put a video together of both sides of a game (both PS5 and Xbox footage and Switch or anything else they put together). Like really, are people hiding behind objects that don't exist in all versions of the game? Or standing around hacking at air to gain resources from the perspective of Xbox players.
That would be too funny. There is potential views in this for some YT personality. LOL, someone get on that.
For all the time it's been out, this seems like something fundamentally broken in the cross-platform/cross-generational design of the Fortnite game. How are the basic structures of the game world not being included for everyone in a match, since people are saying there is no procedural processes involved with the map (for major objects that are large enough to hide players, sources of resources, etc. - not talking about the density of grass blades or anything superfluous like that - just the major objects that could occlude players or objects)?
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Mokus
Member
To my understanding, they will have to costumize the cores again with Zen 4 for the PS4 backwards compatibility.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Mokus
Member
Yes, in the spring of 2020 when some morons were spreading rumors that PS5 might only run about PS4 100 games. With proper hardware compatibility via processor (most important), Cerny was assuring us - "We're keeping that in our back pocket" - until officially they can confirm how many PS4 games will be backwards compatible on the PS5. They were still testing all the PS4 games for this purpose and possibly still working on the hardware and drivers - "as we proceed with the backwards compatibility work".
I don't want to suggest that Zen 4 won't be customized, only it won't be a simple jump.