True but my point is still viable:
I never said that PS5 is RDNA1.
Secondly Geometry Engine isn't NEW. Its NEW to PS5 and to XSX. Not new to RDNA 2.
Geometry Engine isn't some sony term. Its an actual graphics engine.
Its like saying compute shader or pixel shader is just a sony term.
Geometry Engine is in PS5 and XSX and is on the PC cards.
Its the foundation and backbone of RDNA 1 architecture. You almost literally can't take it out because you literally have to completely change the arch.
Its not something that you could or want to remove. Its like saying I want to remove async compute.
Now about primitive shader vs mesh shader. They are doing things fundamentally different but overlap in some things.
"The way geometry is handled has however become complex over the years. The mesh shaders of Turing represent the way forward for improving efficiency, and reducing bandwidth and memory requirements. Navi seems to be somewhere in the middle with its primitive shaders which were dysfunctional in Vega. " from /r/AMD
Here is an in-depth analysis of primitive shader vs mesh shader
Primitive Shader: AMD's Patent Deep Dive
Primitive shader was mentioned in The Road to PS5 video, many suspected it was just another term for Mesh Shader, some said they are different concepts and thus PS5 would not support mesh shader. AMD's own marketing did not help clear the confusion, so I decided to take a look at their patent...www.resetera.com
Mainly can’t not wait until these machines are out with the actual games to argue about.
They looked verd close at the videos/screenshots. This is like you using your eye or a lense in search of atoms.
If the concern soundbites are only about ambiguous details or possible missing features and it in turn garners clarification from the platform holder, then they should be encouraged to do it across all platforms.It’s fascinating that DF always has these “concern” sound bites, but they’ve only been in one direction. At least once a month a new “we should be concerned” thread is spawned on the PS5 that stems from something DF said. Then something will get clarified or squashed (like native 4K with ray tracing at the same time), and yet they’ll find something else to seemingly get the “hardcore” to propagate as “fact” or twist words to argue and spread “doubt.”
I have not once seen it in the other direction so far with these two boxes. Hell, I never see it from any of the other tech breakdown sites (NX/RedGaming). Even Linus had to apologize for being wrong when that certain group tried to push on him the feeding of BS info.
I did find it funny that Alex tried to plant the seed of the Blu-ray drive being “tacked on at the last minute”, but thankfully Richard squashed that because even that was too obvious of reaching for FUD.
I can’t wait for absolutely no “concern soundbites” in next month’s showcase.
Sackboy is now the most important game to certain people to measure the console’s prowess, not the native 4K & ray traced, impeccable IQ particle and object physics galore of the infinitely better looking R&C, Loading up the entire massive and complex levels in 1.5 second switching.
They patented their own use of mesh shaders, just like Sony or any other company with a stake in these techs. Even the wording "form of Variable Rate Shading" appears in that patent.
They really should have demoed the 4 player coop aspect more, I only noticed 2 players.
Why are there no concern soundbites about the xbox Velocity Architecture? The numbers suggest IO is simply much faster on the PS5 and all that vague talk about "bandwidth multipliers" (LOL) and the amazing BCPack compression is not getting any scrutiny from DF, ever. When it comes to Playstation, they always doubt PR and assume the absolute worst in lack of information. When it comes to Xbox, they always take PR at face value and assume the best in lack of information.It’s fascinating that DF always has these “concern” sound bites, but they’ve only been in one direction. At least once a month a new “we should be concerned” thread is spawned on the PS5 that stems from something DF said. Then something will get clarified or squashed (like native 4K with ray tracing at the same time), and yet they’ll find something else to seemingly get the “hardcore” to propagate as “fact” or twist words to argue and spread “doubt.”
I have not once seen it in the other direction so far with these two boxes with them. Hell, I never see it (“concern” speculation) from any of the other tech breakdown sites (NX/RedGaming). Even Linus had to apologize for being wrong when that certain group tried to push on him the feeding of BS info.
I did find it funny that Alex tried to plant the seed of the Blu-ray drive being “tacked on at the last minute”, but thankfully Richard squashed that because even that was too obvious of reaching for FUD.
I can’t wait for absolutely no “concern soundbites” in next month’s showcase.
Bullcrap? That's why Ps4 Pro could do FP16 instructions and Xbox One X not?
Yes but that is the same for a lot of rendering techs.
Agreed. I've been using Atmos the entire generation on Xbox One, which is why I never paid attention to any 3D audio talk in consoles. Atmos and DTS X are the best Hollywood and blu-ray sound formats. If Tempest is that great, let's see Sony release Sony Pictures movies in it. Pitching individual rain drop sounds to console players who don't know any better sounds like more "emotion engine" shenanigans to me.
MS patented their own (software logic) implementation of VRS in DirectX 12U (it is not even exclusive to Xbox One Series X$.Thank you for clearing my confusion. It is not clear when I started conflating the two, but the two demonstrations side by side made me realize my error.
Nvidia’s Turing Architecture Explored: Inside the GeForce RTX 2080
Nvidia's Turing architecture is loaded with new technology, plus features that improve performance in existing games. We step through the design's capabilities and introduce three Turing-based GPUs powering GeForce RTX graphics cards.www.tomshardware.com
If I understand correctly then, Variable Rate Shading is a general filtering technique that is applied by Adaptive Shaders, where filtering can be done based on content or motion.
Mesh shading actually is more akin to primitives shading, and both of them are doing geometry culling before the rasterization step.
Both filtering steps (either on geometry or rasterization) save processing time.
It still stands to reason that what MS patented was their own application of the VRS technique for the XsX.
But assuming that the PS5 GPU could not possibly have any form of VRS at all really sounds like a stretch.
| Hardware: | Compatible with: VR Ready Quadro and VR Ready GeForce Turing based GPUs. |
| Software: | Compatible with the following APIs: DX11, DX12, OpenGL, Vulkan. |
developer.nvidia.com
Hi ron. Nice seeing you here
Good point about the patent update; we've already found so many of their other patents the past year or so, by now we should've probably expected something on the GPU along that front. Maybe it'll be found at a later date, who knows
For RT I think, now going back to some of the earlier MS press info, they basically added some tensor core-like equivalents to the GPU for DirectML and DXR RT, to work alongside the general graphics CUs. So when they gave that "in addition to essentially 13 TF in RT performance" figure earlier I at first didn't think too much of it. But considering MS has a major focus on ML with the system, and they would obviously want equivalents to Tensor Cores in their hardware for such purposes, I think there's merit to that figure even if some types try running with it to claim 25 TF (which you can't do, since those other cores aren't intended for general graphics workloads, they have a specific use).
Good point about the patent update; we've already found so many of their other patents the past year or so, by now we should've probably expected something on the GPU along that front. Maybe it'll be found at a later date, who knows
For RT I think, now going back to some of the earlier MS press info, they basically added some tensor core-like equivalents to the GPU for DirectML and DXR RT, to work alongside the general graphics CUs. So when they gave that "in addition to essentially 13 TF in RT performance" figure earlier I at first didn't think too much of it. But considering MS has a major focus on ML with the system, and they would obviously want equivalents to Tensor Cores in their hardware for such purposes, I think there's merit to that figure even if some types try running with it to claim 25 TF (which you can't do, since those other cores aren't intended for general graphics workloads, they have a specific use).
I think this is possible. One thing of note though: I'm not sure if 4K/30 is necessarily Cerny's design target, as such choices generally come down to the development studios. He might see that as an optimal situation for game performance on the platform, but devs still get to choose what baseline native targets they aim for. Over the course of the generation as platform limits are pushed we could see more 1440p/30 scenarios (but in real-time gameplay) like the UE5 demo showed off, if it means devs reaching at least that level of visual fidelity, on PS5.
If the modifications to the GE and PS you suggest hold true, I wonder if it would still be compiler-controlled like Primitive Shaders were on RDNA1. Mesh Shaders changed that going forward, but I don't know to what extent that type of customization could've been done with PS on Sony's end. It's possible Sony wanted to move aspects of VRS-like techniques to different parts of the processing and rendering pipeline, so it'll be interesting to see how it plays out in practice.
IIRC VRS 2.0 cleans up a lot of the sacrifice in IQ VRS 1.0 had; how much so I wouldn't know. But I'm very interested to see the results of the "VRS" > Primitive Shader approach of PS5 compared to the Mesh Shading > VRS approach of XSX. And just how Sony's own takes on that compare with VRS 2.0 (a lot of it would come down to what level of support Vulkan has for it, I think).
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I could swear that high and stable framerates were one of the expected features for those next gen systems. Everybody shitted on the jaguar CPUs for 7 years and was looking forward to finally having decent frame rates on consoles. Visit the next gen thread on this very forum if you need a reminder of the hype that preceded the release of the PS5.
Phil Spencer has stated that he greatler prefers 60fps to 30fps and their recent 1st party has shown that to be true, even getting Gears 5 up to it with variable res techniques. I feel good about Xbox 1st party focusing on 60/120 (for mp) but the ubisofts and sony 1st party types will probably still focus on pretty 30 over less pretty 60.
You could technically do RT on Series X at.... 0.5fps second. The proof will be in the games when they release.
FUD: PS5 has no hardware accelerated ray tracing because 'verbiage' from what Cerny stated.
Goal: Sony's PS5 event shows games using ray tracing
FUD: PS5 isn't RDNA2
Goal: Sony and AMD's CEO say PS5 is RDNA2.
FUD: SSD is just for faster load times.
Goal: Insomniac shows a glimpse of what can be done with increased I/O with Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart. Warping to entirely different worlds in mere seconds.
FUD: PS5 is a 1440p+4K upscaling machine.
Goal: Sony's PS5 event shows most games running at native 4K
I think the RDNA1 narrative needs to stop, both MS and Sony started design on RDNA1 and moved to RDNA2, anything else is just plain FUD, and both will of known what was coming years in advance.
Both customised the RDNA2 with whatever they wanted from same menu of logic and functional blocks, thinking any different just shows naivity of semiconductor desigin.
Anything unique to Sony or MS will be patented HARDWARE design, but likely will be also owned by AMD as the design partner......
Both Sony and MS will have on the menu the logic functions for culling vertices not in view, lowering resolution in parts of an image, precedural shading, and they will have chosen what they thinks gives best performance and given each API a different name if they wish to
The only thing I have read that is unique is cache scrubbers and coherence engine so far.
