Bernd Lauert
Banned
Very impressive. Can't wait until "RT only" becomes the standard. Team Sony will then also be on board with RT, I guarantee it 
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[Digital Foundry] Exclusive: Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition Analysis - The First Triple-A Ray Tracing Game
- Thread starter DonJorginho
- Start date
I bet the willVery impressive. Can't wait until "RT only" becomes the standard. Team Sony will then also be on board with RT, I guarantee it
I say again, again and again. Fanboys is CANCER.
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Negotiator101
Member
He said you have no clue, are you agreeing with him?
captainnapalm
Member
Great news - the visual upgrades are really striking. It's very exciting to think this lighting approach will be the future of gaming. Does anyone know how CP2077's RT approach compares to what's being done in Metro? Cyberpunk is already a feast for the eyes in terms of lighting.
Also, the Metro series is easily one of the most underrated series in modern gaming. Every game is superb. Can't wait to replay the whole trilogy when this drops.
Also, the Metro series is easily one of the most underrated series in modern gaming. Every game is superb. Can't wait to replay the whole trilogy when this drops.
rofif
Banned
The TAA ghosting is not often there but when there is some vegetation it can be terrible. Like IN Death Stranding example I like to use. The shrubs with TAA look terrible swaying on wind. DLSS looks pristine clean
Major_Key
perm warning for starting troll/bait threads
Very impressive. Can't wait until "RT only" becomes the standard. Team Sony will then also be on board with RT, I guarantee it
SSD > RT
/s
VFXVeteran
Banned
Next Thursday.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Not sure. I'd love to compare all the features from PC to the consoles. I'm sure DF will do a video on it.
Armorian
Banned
The best available image quality is supersampling/downsampling, but it cots a lot of course. DLSS can be used with DSR so you basically render game in native res internally and avoid all TAA minuses, plus it looks much better than native res. But some cost of DLSS is there.
Downsampling + DLSS (don't remember what setting LOL)
There are points in the recorded history of technology were suddenly everything changes, and it can be hard to notice what is happening when you are living in one of those moments.
Yesterday was one of those moments, and the Internet is recording for eternity the reactions from everyone posting in this thread.
You will tell your grand kids that you were here when the first real generational leap in realtime graphics in a consumer videogame happened in almost 30 years, but you will either never disclose your username from the shame of your arguments, or you will say it proudly. Imagine being the one saying for eternity, that he could not notice the difference...
Yesterday was one of those moments, and the Internet is recording for eternity the reactions from everyone posting in this thread.
You will tell your grand kids that you were here when the first real generational leap in realtime graphics in a consumer videogame happened in almost 30 years, but you will either never disclose your username from the shame of your arguments, or you will say it proudly. Imagine being the one saying for eternity, that he could not notice the difference...
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Oh shit, you're going to trigger a lot of people.
There is nothing to trigger. Technologically wise, this set a new benchmark everyone will have to follow to compete.
Lets just remember to distinguish technology from artistic design. This is the technologically best looking game ever made, but its also not the best looking game ever made.
Lets just remember to distinguish technology from artistic design. This is the technologically best looking game ever made, but its also not the best looking game ever made.
Watched this last night and it looks phenomenal. IMO a bigger difference than the tacked on RT was from the base lighting, and that was already a huge difference.
Personally I always thought the underlying graphics were a bit ropey, but even so, with this update it looks like a generation ahead of any PS4 era game.
I was watching it thinking, my god, how demanding is this gonna be? Infinite bounces on every light source?! And then it turns out to be less demanding than the original version! Wow.
So this sort of thing SHOULD be possible on the new consoles, then? Hey, maybe this isn't going to be a gimmick after all.
Personally I always thought the underlying graphics were a bit ropey, but even so, with this update it looks like a generation ahead of any PS4 era game.
I was watching it thinking, my god, how demanding is this gonna be? Infinite bounces on every light source?! And then it turns out to be less demanding than the original version! Wow.
So this sort of thing SHOULD be possible on the new consoles, then? Hey, maybe this isn't going to be a gimmick after all.
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4000?? I think you meant 10000€. Aim for the stars dude.
TheAssist
Member
I dont think I would notice most of the differences during gameplay. Its too minor too notice. Probably also speaks for the good job they did with the non RT lighting.
Also there is just too much stuff that detracts from the quality of the lighting. Like animation, faces, some textures, etc. The better the overall graphics get, the more important RT lighting becomes.
Not saying RT isnt the future, but I honestly couldnt tell you the difference in most of these shots (during actual gameplay, not standing in a corner and looking at side by side comparisions)
Also there is just too much stuff that detracts from the quality of the lighting. Like animation, faces, some textures, etc. The better the overall graphics get, the more important RT lighting becomes.
Not saying RT isnt the future, but I honestly couldnt tell you the difference in most of these shots (during actual gameplay, not standing in a corner and looking at side by side comparisions)
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Just watched properly and this is amazing stuff. I hope it comes to more games because it is truly next gen shit!
True, and it's really hard not to notice the fanboys stirring shit up and then acting all sanctimonious. Then in other threads they say with a straight face that it's the same across the board. It is pretty clear the particular subset of fanboys getting all worked up about this, but i guess that in 1 year or 2, RT will really be the shit. Until they say it isn't, then it isn't.
Shmunter
Member
Gotta be honest, wouldn’t know any different without the side by side comparisons. Proof in point; the 2019 version having similar level of fanfare.
Dev time is cut. More dynamic scene changes are feasible and it is more accurate, big positives no doubt.
But does it look better - sometimes yes, sometimes no and is the cost on balance worth it to me as a gamer? Not yet - the grunt could be used elsewhere for a better bang for the buck scenario.
The game still looks like COD. UE5 and similar next gen engines cant come soon enough.
Dev time is cut. More dynamic scene changes are feasible and it is more accurate, big positives no doubt.
But does it look better - sometimes yes, sometimes no and is the cost on balance worth it to me as a gamer? Not yet - the grunt could be used elsewhere for a better bang for the buck scenario.
The game still looks like COD. UE5 and similar next gen engines cant come soon enough.
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The tech is great... but what is the point of it when it covers everything with shadowy shimmering even on a top end PC? IQ just none existent with all of this "infinite bounce" overkill.
It is visible even in a youtube video in a not zoomed-in gameplay.
Now imagine consoles.
Now imagine Series S pushing all of the noize in the world making it look way worse then XBOX ONE version.
It is visible even in a youtube video in a not zoomed-in gameplay.
Now imagine consoles.
Now imagine Series S pushing all of the noize in the world making it look way worse then XBOX ONE version.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
He's right, but the truth of the matter is that most people won't consciously notice much of the effect, so its value is questionable especially when by its demanding nature its somewhat exclusionary in hardware terms.
Its all about the illusion.
Something like Control was a perfect example of how you showcase the most obvious benefits, but being honest while I was impressed it still seemed somewhat tech-demoey to me! So although on one hand I do applaud 4A for doing with appropriate subtlety, on the other I have to say it does seem less impactful.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
The PS5 I/O and SSD will push RT rendering to next level. /s
Rikkori
Member
The irony of people not understanding that DLSS is still TAA, but nonetheless praising it all the time. It's like saying you hate all sodas but love pepsi.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
It's incredibly advanced TAA and why people downplay it is beyond me.The irony of people not understanding that DLSS is still TAA, but nonetheless praising it all the time. It's like saying you hate all sodas but love pepsi.
Julius Ibidus
Member
yeah, wasn't doing anything with that second kidney, got two of the after all!
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
DLSS is not JUST TAA.The irony of people not understanding that DLSS is still TAA, but nonetheless praising it all the time. It's like saying you hate all sodas but love pepsi.
Someone correct me if I am wrong.
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DonJuanSchlong
Banned
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
It utilizes the same technique as TAA, but then applies ML on top of that.
#1) TAA has issues with motion, particularly certain types of motion, or certain types of objects in motion.. or things like shadows in motion over certain objects.
#2) You know how crazy google and other photo apps have gotten at detecting that a picture has a cat vs. a human vs. a bottle of anal lube?
That's utilizing ML; on the backend Google has trained on the billions of images people have uploaded to google photos, using humans to iteratively "train" their model (humans correcting wrong guesses over time are actually a lot of the "intelligence" to "Artificial Intelligence") until eventually the AI being built can do it themselves with great accuracy (by figuring out why it's guesses were wrong.)
DLSS 2.0 uses similar concepts as mentioned in #2 to detect parts of an image that would have issues as I mentioned above in #1. So things like a latticed fence, or a striped object that cause crazy jittering w/ TAA get "detected" using similar techniques as how Facebook detects that you were in your buddies photo, and then fixes the issue with that part of the image (by using a style of TAA on that part of the image that doesn't have these issues IIRC)
It's a great technique that has the perf improvement of TAA w/ the advancements of ML to help solve it's problems.
It's not perfect, but it can and will only get better.
(the above may not be a perfect description of the tech, I understand ML but am a layman when it comes to anti-aliasing, but have attempted to garner an understanding by reading articles/watching nVidia presentations)
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DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
In some alternate reality where Radeon 6000 series + PS5 had DLSS and NVidia didn’t, 100% of the people downplaying it now would instead be praising and hyping it to the heavens. I think that tells you all you need to know.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Oh I know that's what it is for some people; AMD fanboys + console fanboys (and people are often AMD fanboys because of said consoles.)
For instance a certain Brazilian someone who spammed the beginning of this thread is quick to bash DLSS because it's not an AMD tech, and that allegiance likely stems from Sony's use of AMD.
I should have said I don't understand why anyone rational and impartial would downplay it lol, but those people probably don't exist.
FWIW I PC game and have an RTX card but usually choose just rendering at a lower resolution than using DLSS 2.0 because my brain notices even the slightest image defects and it bothers me more than just gaming at 1080p. But the tech is really fucking cool and utilizes ML in a smart way.. those who downplay the ML aspects are either fanboys or just ignorant as hell.
edit: and I also absolutely love my PS5.. and think my XSX is the bees knees... territorial gamers make no sense to me.. all of these products are available to us all.. you haven't won a prize by choosing one and defending it endlessly, you have lost actually.
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Xdrive05
Member
So this is basically the future that we were told was coming but not possible to do just yet? This is the first example of "real time ray tracing handles ALL the lighting in AAA games" future that we've been told is not doable on 2000 and 3000 series RTX cards?
Because this lighting looks perfectly performant on the current RTX cards, even the 2060, and the results are indeed incredible!
I wonder how well PS5 and XBX would run this at the lower settings? I bet 1440p dynamic would be perfectly doable without needing to go under 1080p. And that is what should actually excite all of you. Because real time, real ass ray tracing like this will never become mainstream until the consoles can do it too. Let's see some new gen console games that do this, please! That will be the breakthrough we all need to usher this in at long last.
Because this lighting looks perfectly performant on the current RTX cards, even the 2060, and the results are indeed incredible!
I wonder how well PS5 and XBX would run this at the lower settings? I bet 1440p dynamic would be perfectly doable without needing to go under 1080p. And that is what should actually excite all of you. Because real time, real ass ray tracing like this will never become mainstream until the consoles can do it too. Let's see some new gen console games that do this, please! That will be the breakthrough we all need to usher this in at long last.
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Buggy Loop
Member
It’s not just TAA. They use the TAA’s motion vectors with their solution, that’s pretty much it.. both use motion vectors, that’s almost the only thing in common.
It’s like comparing an heuristic optimization algorithm like genetic algorithms vs a deep learning approach and then say “lol, both maths both same”.
Nvidia still use their neural network to train it on ideal images vs low resolution image on their super computer, and then implemented in a driver basis. It bitchslaps TAA’s heuristic approach and fixed almost all it’s inherent problems. Even this thread’s video has a very good comparison and DF does not mince words here, DLSS 2 is king.
DeaconOfTheDank
Member
VFXVeteran
looks like they've started adopting a temporal approach to amoritize the render cost of complex lighting effects - in this particular case, RTGI with infinitely many bounces. Alex goes into detail about the tell-tale signs of this approach starting around 27:40.I remember speculating about this with you a while back. Very excited to see this trick being applied to other historically expensive graphical effects. Just imagine real-time caustics
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Werewolfgrandma
Banned
I loved the maxx. Gonna have to give that a go tonight.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
DLSS as a whole will definitely get better, especially when DLSS 3.0 releases. It's kinda crazy that some hate on it, just cause AMD doesn't have an equivalent of because they are a console fanboy. That's fucking insane to think like that.
Tqaulity
Member
All good. Essentially, you're talking about next gen "graphics" whereas I'm interested in next gen "games". Fair enough
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
What games do you think are really pushing impossible ideas though?
I think Ratchet is the example used.. but we always could have had instantly changing worlds if that was actually some gameplay element that people wanted. You'd just be doing it with not as good graphics as you could w/ high i/o.
I think the PS5 is a fantastic machine, but also think so far we are just seeing really smooth awesome graphics and insanely low load times. And I absolutely LOVE the low load times.. but I find games that are doing cool simulations that are years old to be more advanced from a gameplay perspective than what I've seen "super fast I/O" being presented as bringing.
Not meant to be combative.. honestly wondering what is a "next gen game" and really the why you think it's "next-gen" worthy?
Andodalf
Banned
Imagine the gameplay implications of being able to have a pitch black room become instantly appropriately lit by a flashlight. You could use this as a detection system in a stealth game, or a defensive mechanic in a horror game, or the primary gimmick of a fun kiddy hide and seek game. Perfectly accurate and completely dynamic lighting is a game changer.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
But.. this is possible w/o RT.. it just won't look as cool.
RT creates more immersion to me.. that's the real benefit that isn't purely "pretty graphics." But gameplay wise, it's not going to do much for us... maybe more accurate audio is a real gameplay enhancement though.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Andodalf
Banned
Current effects can only bias existing lighting and make a single hard shadow for the objects hit. You aren't getting true bounces of light that accurately propagate in a room
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Ok? And what does that have to do with gameplay?
It makes things more immersive and cooler to look at.. but the same game could be made w/o it.
ethomaz
Banned
It is because they changed the lighting tone so the comparisons are useless.
The graphics seems pretty similar with the same issues as 2019.
A fair comparison should be the scene with that new RT with the same lighting tone as in 2019 version... so we could really compare the implementation.
In a lot of scenes in the video the dark tone of 2019 fells better imo... the atmosphere changed.
But devs choose a way lighter tone maybe because it causes a big impression change.
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rofif
Banned
True. Dlss still have some characteristics that beat even 8k on my 4k tv. Btw... Dark souls 3 in 8k runs 7fps but looks sublimeThe best available image quality is supersampling/downsampling, but it cots a lot of course. DLSS can be used with DSR so you basically render game in native res internally and avoid all TAA minuses, plus it looks much better than native res. But some cost of DLSS is there.
Downsampling + DLSS (don't remember what setting LOL)
Neo_game
Member
Very impressive. Can't wait until "RT only" becomes the standard. Team Sony will then also be on board with RT, I guarantee it
David cage did say some devs might target 1080P to have better implementation of RT. Though I think we may have to wait next gen for proper RT games on consoles.