Support NeoGAF

[Sad Affleck]

Why do people say this when we already have 1080p@60 games on PS4/Xbox

Those games were designed from the start with the limitations of the Jaguar CPU in mind. Brute forcing 60 fps with the XB1X won't be possible for the vast majority of XB1 30 fps titles.

 

[EvB]

not sure now!

 

[peppers]

I'm actually kinda worried that even if the 1X packs that fancy VRR tech, devs might not include a V-sync toggle to actually get above 30 fps. I mean Gears 4 in campaign mode holds the steadiest 30fps, which means it could perform above that metric...

Edit: ^Lol at Battlefront 1 720p/140fps that's what I mean boi

 

[Ehker]

Its not like there's any bottlenecks in the CPU, its just the CPU is shit.

There's not any bottlenecks in the CPU, but the CPU is shit? The claim was Scorpio would remove previous CPU bottlenecks, so not seeing how that claim was close to right. I'm confused.

 

[leeh]

Again, please quote me where I said it was anyone in this thread.

I never stated it was anyone in here.

So again...

?

Why even come in here and post that then?

 

[ZeroPain]

I want to preorder it already!

 

[borges]

Ya'll acting like this thing will be hard to get or something.

Ya'll acting as if this hurts you. Whats wrong if people is interested on buying a device? Are you stock holder of the competition of sth? Let people enjoy the hype, theres nothing wrong with that.

 

[Raide]

Except this graphs shows games running at 1080p have the capability to run with double or triple the framerate of the original game....

Certainly an interesting chart. It shows great FPS increases on the small range of titles tested, but I am unsure if it's basically saying without changes, the 1X is running the same resolution but at way higher framerate, is that right?

 

[Chû Totoro]

Xbox now in its final form. Well done Microsoft

 

[EvB]

Certainly an interesting chart. It shows great FPS increases on the small range of titles tested, but I am unsure if it's basically saying without changes, the 1X is running the same resolution but at way higher framerate, is that right?

Kind of, it would still need to have the 30 or 60 FPS cap (if one is in place) removed but these frametimes show the machine is capable of rendering the frames fast enough to hit those framerates.


Unless I've missed something, then this is pretty huge right?
It shows the game running on Xbox One, the game running on X in Backwards compatible mode and then the game having been updated to the latest XDK version that supports X

 

[LukasTaves]

Kind surreal how compute is scaling well. They are taking a 900p, compute bound game at 1.3TF, to 4K being bandwidth bound (even with 326GB/s) with 6TF.

That's a 5.7 increase in resolution, with 4.6 increase in processing power, and still the bottleneck is now memory rather than processing.

 

[Raide]

Unless I've missed something, then this is pretty huge right?
It shows the game running on Xbox One, the game running on X in Backwards compatible mode and then the game having been updated to the latest XDK version that supports X

Some crazy increases. So many games could lock 60fps at high resolution if they patched them. I really wonder if MS will have the option to keep to regular Res and let the FPS lock at 60 for the 30fps games?

 

[Liabe Brave]

Wait a second...both of the sports/racing games are listed as 1080p/60 and "In Development" and "In House"???


Horizon is normally 30fps....so what is the second racer?

"In house" does not mean "first party", it just means the studio isn't using an engine they licensed instead of developed, like Unity/Unreal/Lumberyard. So all EA games would be "in house" because they're on Frostbite, etc. The second racing game could be The Crew 2 or NFS: Payback, for example. Are either of those 60fps? Or maybe it's Project Cars 2; do Slightly Mad have their own engine?

 

[LukasTaves]

Certainly an interesting chart. It shows great FPS increases on the small range of titles tested, but I am unsure if it's basically saying without changes, the 1X is running the same resolution but at way higher framerate, is that right?

Yeah, same resolution, just to show the sheer amount of performance games can get just from being recompiled towards the new SDK.

 

[LukasTaves]

Wait, which engine Ark uses? I'm guessing that's the game I?

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Fuck....

"Under the later XDK, every new Xbox One title will automatically gain Xbox One X performance improvements, seemingly even if the developer does not have access to an Xbox One X devkit and is targeting no bespoke improvements"

So lovely to see stuff like this. Also, there's some legitimately amazing information contained in here. Take, for example, the incredible Gears 4 info, showcasing that it's highly likely that the frame time results we're seeing STILL heavily underestimates the performance gains possible with Xbox One X. Gears 4 showed very little rendering time improvement, and yet Gears 4 is confirmed on Xbox One X to have added all kinds of major graphical enhancements, a level to which simply makes no sense for the minor improvement for the small gain in render time displayed. What this means is that when a developer more specifically targets Xbox One X, like Coalition has obviously done, the performance gains can be much larger.

Arguably more fascinating is Gears of War 4. There is overhead in the leap to 4K based on the benchmarks, but not a huge amount of it - not compared to Forza, at least. However, The Coalition announced upgrades for the game at E3 including higher resolution textures, higher polygon counts, longer draw distances, upgraded dynamic shadows and improved reflections. It's hard to believe that all of those could be accommodated in the relatively small render time improvement seen here, suggesting that more intensive optimisation for Xbox One X improves upon the raw benchmark result significantly.

And if that's the case, two of the three 900p titles tested here could conceivably attain native 4K resolution upgrades - Title A is just 1ms away from parity with base Xbox One, while Title E is just 2ms off pace, frame-times increasing by around five to six per cent in both cases.

I need to be able to pre-order this thing like yesterday...

And, honestly, look at those massive ass FPS boosts on the latest XDK, essentially raw ports. I now believe far less that Destiny 2 somehow really can't run on this system at 60fps. Perhaps not 4K native or even checkerboard 4K, but it can't do a lower resolution or even 1080p with 60fps? I just don't buy it after seeing these results, and I didn't even buy the claim before seeing these results. Only now I have more raw data to support that belief.

 

[peppers]

Kind of, it would still need to have the 30 or 60 FPS cap (if one is in place) removed but these frametimes show the machine is capable of rendering the frames fast enough to hit those framerates.


Unless I've missed something, then this is pretty huge right?
It shows the game running on Xbox One, the game running on X in Backwards compatible mode and then the game having been updated to the latest XDK version that supports X

I understand it this way as well, plus the fact that it's only properly optimised when it's running on Xbox One since that's the only version they actually coded for.

It seems really easy to get the game running on the latest XDK so I really really hope we get some surprises with Ryse or Quantum Break at least. Do Insomniac even have (or need) the Scorpio devkits if they aren't making a game for Xbox anytime soon?

 

[Black Mantis]

yes, but nothing they've shown so far is significantly better looking.

It's not just graphics that will see the benefits of the extra power, the Sumo dev was clearly talking about the performance aspect of CD3;

"We’ve got something like 15K simultaneous props moving around in our game [Crackdown 3]. Now the Xbox One X just eats them for breakfast."

http://wccftech.com/sumo-digital-xb1x-15k-props/

I don't know if you've played Crackdown, but it can get pretty crazy when things kick off and in the vids we've seen of CD3 after the poor showing during the MS E3 conference, it looks like they're definitely upping the ante.

 

[Shin]

Certainly an interesting chart. It shows great FPS increases on the small range of titles tested, but I am unsure if it's basically saying without changes, the 1X is running the same resolution but at way higher framerate, is that right?

It's only logical, Xbox runs at 525Mhz faster than xb1s after all.

 

[Backfoggen]

Wait, which engine Ark uses? I'm guessing that's the game I?

UE 4

 

[Giftofgab24]

Whats wrong with people on Youtube? How this comment is the top 1 on the article?

There were Trump supporters yesterday that thought that NPR was attacking Trump with tweets. They were tweeting out the Declaration of Independence. They share it in some form every year for the last few years.

We're obviously not dealing with the sharpest crayons in the box.

 

[LCGeek]

Such a bummer the CPU is holding this beast back

Yet no complaints about them using the crap windows kernel scheduler which can't take on other OS.

Without a redo we gamers are wasting time with an os that eats overhead, has performance drift the longer it is used, and has been shown not to be real time or multithreading friendly like linux.

Why comlpain about any cpu when the OS being used to maximize it is a pos?

 

[ronaldthump]

It's not just graphics that will see the benefits of the extra power, the Sumo dev was clearly talking about the performance aspect of CD3;

"We’ve got something like 15K simultaneous props moving around in our game [Crackdown 3]. Now the Xbox One X just eats them for breakfast."

http://wccftech.com/sumo-digital-xb1x-15k-props/

I don't know if you've played Crackdown, but it can get pretty crazy when things kick off and in the vids we've seen of CD3 after the poor showing during the MS E3 conference, it looks like they're definitely upping the ante.

Something something the power of the cloud... :/

Ill believe it when i see crackdown3

 

[LukasTaves]

So lovely to see stuff like this. Also, there's some legitimately amazing information contained in here. Take, for example, the incredible Gears 4 info, showcasing that it's highly likely that the frame time results we're seeing STILL heavily underestimates the performance gains possible with Xbox One X. Gears 4 showed very little rendering time improvement, and yet Gears 4 is confirmed on Xbox One X to have added all kinds of major graphical enhancements, a level to which simply makes no sense for the minor improvement for the small gain in render time displayed. What this means is that when a developer more specifically targets Xbox One X, like Coalition has obviously done, the performance gains can be much larger.



I need to be able to pre-order this thing like yesterday...

The footage they had on E3 for Gears 4 were equal to the PC version, but had depth of field and motion blur (both present on xbone) completely disabled.

That would fall in line with the headroom not being as big to accommodate all the upgrades, perhaps they are reworking on those two effects to reduce their footprints.

 

[Harp]

Other than false marketing the true 4k vs checkerboard is not that big a deal. The ultimate goal is a crisp clean image. The good thing is both the pro and the x will use checkerboarding so developers are can focus on the game engine and not figuring out how to checkerboard and render natively.

 

[EvB]

Some crazy increases. So many games could lock 60fps at high resolution if they patched them. I really wonder if MS will have the option to keep to regular Res and let the FPS lock at 60 for the 30fps games?

Presumably they would just need to change an ini file somewhere that has capped framerate at 30, if this is the case.

Game A is blatantly Recore and it can hit frame times capable of driving a 30fps experience, digital foundry shows that the framerate is locked at 30fps.
So in theory they just need to patch it to move that cap to 60fps


This is what I think the games are.

A: Recore
B: Forza 7
C: Gears 4
D: Assassin's Creed
E: Crackdown 3
F: F1 2017
G: Halo Wars 2
H: Battlefront 1
I: Scalebound?

Armature games are holding out on talking about the definitive edition and MS have said they will talk more about support for older games, so maybe they were keeping the 60fps surprise for a gamescom moment?

 

[Ehker]

It's not just graphics that will see the benefits of the extra power, the Sumo dev was clearly talking about the performance aspect of CD3;

"We've got something like 15K simultaneous props moving around in our game [Crackdown 3]. Now the Xbox One X just eats them for breakfast."

http://wccftech.com/sumo-digital-xb1x-15k-props/

I don't know if you've played Crackdown, but it can get pretty crazy when things kick off and in the vids we've seen of CD3 after the poor showing during the MS E3 conference, it looks like they're definitely upping the ante.

Tossing around terms like it "eats for breakfast" 15K props isn't very techincal, especially for a game running at 30. Need more details on how it compares to XB1 at least, but this sounds like an empty hype statement.

 

[Monkeyball]

These midgen upgrades seem like a big hassle, how do they even make money with them?

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Certainly an interesting chart. It shows great FPS increases on the small range of titles tested, but I am unsure if it's basically saying without changes, the 1X is running the same resolution but at way higher framerate, is that right?

It's the same game without changes, but if the same game without changes on Xbox One X is getting in instances 3 to 4 times superior framerate performance, you mean to tell me that they can't slip in some visual boosts on top of all that to bring FPS down to normal Xbox One performance? This looks to me like every Xbox One title as a barebones port, meaning the exact Xbox One version of the game, assuming same graphics, same native res, same everything, on the latest XDK can have its FPS doubled, tripled or quadrupled on Xbox One X. That's fucking impressive.

 

[Raide]

It's the same game without changes, but if the same game without changes on Xbox One X is getting in instances 3 to 4 times superior framerate performance, you mean to tell me that they can't slip in some visual boosts on top of all that to bring FPS down to normal Xbox One performance? This looks to me like every Xbox One title as a barebones port, meaning the exact Xbox One version of the game, assuming same graphics, same native res, same everything, on the latest XDK can have its FPS doubled, tripled or quadrupled on Xbox One X. That's fucking impressive.

If they could 1080p with extra effects and locked at 60 easily, I would love to see that as a option. Nudge it a bit to 1440 and still keep 60? Sign me up!

 

[Black Mantis]

Something something the power of the cloud... :/

Ill believe it when i see crackdown3

Sumo aren't working on the MP portion, just the SP, so wouldn't be using the cloud.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Whenever they open up preorders I'll preorder mine

 

[Colbert]

Somebody asked for a TL;DR

• Games with a 1080p target on Xbox One can be native 4K with some performance headroom on Xbox One X
• Games with a 900p target on Xbox One can reach native 4K with some optimisation on Xbox One X
• Games with a 720p target on Xbox One can not reach native 4K but quite easily 2160p CBR on Xbox One X
• Unpatched Xbox One games compiled with any XDK before Release July 2017 can make use about 3TF of the Xbox One X which will lead to locked frame rates and highest possible target resolution if it was not CPU bound
• Just a recompile of older titles will give the game full access to the 6TF of the GPU which will result in a patch

This is really good news and some of the questions for the future will be:

1. How many games of the current catalog will get just that simple recompile patch?
2. How many titles will get a full patch with an increased frame buffer to 4K?
3. How many titles with a 900p target on Xbox One will eventually be indeed native 4K on Xbox One X when released/patched?

 

[Gowans]

This is really good news and some of the questions for the future will be:

1. How many games of the current catalog will get just that simple recompile patch?
2. How many titles will get a full patch with an increased frame buffer to 4K?

They are dripping in

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1392285

 

[DESTROYA]

So what can people with 1080p tv's that really don't see the need/simply can't afford or are just perfectly fine with there "old" tv expect?
Locked or steady 60FPS ? PS4 Pro like boost mode?
I really can't justify getting a new 4K tv just for gaming since I rarely watch TV anymore.

 

[Lister]

1. How many games of the current catalog will get just that simple recompile patch?
   

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "simple recompile" to a new SDK is probably not simple.

I guess if nothing breaks it will be simple. But I'd wager that things will break and will nee dot be addressed. It's WHY they can't just allow full hardware performance on older titles. They will BREAK if you do.

 

[LelouchZero]

Why do people say this when we already have 1080p@60 games on PS4/Xbox

Of-course, but there are also games which will struggle to hit a consistent 60 fps due to CPU limitations unless optimizations are made to improve the performance of the software, this could be done by producing higher performing code and tackling things which slow it down, or even by alleviating some of the CPU load and offloading things such as physics processing to the GPU.

Except this graphs shows games running at 1080p have the capability to run with double or triple the framerate of the original game....

Not to discredit these benchmarks but we don't have the minimum frame rate numbers, we also don't know much about how these benchmarks were conducted. The scenarios which were tested could be predominately GPU bound, whilst other scenarios may be CPU bound and showcase lower performance.

Ideally for consistent performance you'll want your minimum frame-rate closer to the frame-rate target. A game in one of those graphs could be pushing over 60 fps at one point and dropping down to the 40s or 50s in more CPU intensive scenes. As a result the game has variable performance and isn't sticking consistently to the 60 fps target.

That's not to say that all of the 30 fps games in the graph will be unable to make the jump to 60, some may be GPU limited so the CPU isn't much of a problem.

 

[RoninChaos]

... so what do all those graphs mean exactly?

 

[cackhyena]

... so what do all those graphs mean exactly?

Scorpio

 

[Colbert]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "simple recompile" to a new SDK is probably not simple.

I guess if nothing breaks it will be simple. But I'd wager that things will break and will nee not be addressed. It's WHY they can't just allow full hardware performance on older titles. They will BREAK if you do.

One of the things that sureley is handled diffrerently in the new versions of the XDK is the handling of ESRAM. In BC mode we already know that the MMU is just pointing to a subset of the GDDR5 memory instead of the ESRAM on the Xbox One X. I am sure XDKs after July have additional feastures to handle the different hw setups including the ESRAM.

From an API standpoint if the API interfaces are unchanged in regards of calls and return values I don't see any issues for a recompile. If APIs has changes in it it depends how far they go. At least recomiling would lead to error messages or warnings that points to the your code where you have to change things. I am almost 100% sure that those changes are minimal.

Edit:
Btw when I write simple it is effort less 2 workdays for a single person which includes the lead time to setup your development environment for the new XDK version.

 

[Christocolus]

Somebody asked for a TL;DR

• Games with a 1080p target on Xbox One can be native 4K with some performance headroom on Xbox One X
• Games with a 900p target on Xbox One can reach native 4K with some optimisation on Xbox One X
• Games with a 720p target on Xbox One can not reach native 4K but quite easily 2160p CBR on Xbox One X
• Unpatched Xbox One games compiled with any XDK before Release July 2017 can make use about 3TF of the Xbox One X which will lead to locked frame rates and highest possible target resolution if it was not CPU bound
• Just a recompile of older titles will give the game full access to the 6TF of the GPU which will result in a patch

This is really good news and some of the questions for the future will be:

1. How many games of the current catalog will get just that simple recompile patch?
2. How many titles will get a full patch with an increased frame buffer to 4K?
3. How many titles with a 900p target on Xbox One will eventually be indeed native 4K on Xbox One X when released/patched?

This is really good news. They surely put a lot of thought and effort into the 1X hardware. Playful Corp The devs of Super Luckys tale said it's the most developer friendly console they've ever worked with and many others are saying same..this bodes well for future Xbox hardware.

 

[Lister]

From an API standpoint if the SPI interfaces are unchanged in regards of calls and return values I don't see any issues for a recompile. If APIs has changes in it it depends how far they go. At least recomiling would lead to error messages or warnings that points to the your code where you have to change things. I am almost 100% sure that those changes are minimal.

How could you possibly know that? Unless you know what those API changes are and how they might affect a particulr engine or game? It would be great if this is true, but I think you're jumping the gun. We need to see what developers outside Microsoft are saying when it comes to updating their games.

 

[Trup1aya]

So what can people with 1080p tv's that really don't see the need/simply can't afford or are just perfectly fine with there "old" tv expect?
Locked or steady 60FPS ? PS4 Pro like boost mode?
I really can't justify getting a new 4K tv just for gaming since I rarely watch TV anymore.

With a 1080p TV, you'll still benefit from the steadier performances, textures, and they added clarity due to better AA and supersampling.

The system is always in "boost mode" - but it throws offers the entire gpu to xb1 games rather than simply overclocking half of the gpu like the ps4 does.

It also appears that if developers wanted to patch support for higher framerates at 1080p than the original games offered, many games would be able to hit 60fps or higher.

 

[LukasTaves]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "simple recompile" to a new SDK is probably not simple.

I guess if nothing breaks it will be simple. But I'd wager that things will break and will nee dot be addressed. It's WHY they can't just allow full hardware performance on older titles. They will BREAK if you do.

Each xbone game ships with its own OS version bundled for compatibility purposes. Might be that simple the older OS can't access all the new console features, while the newer SDK allows that.

I doubt that it would be any API breaking changes. Ms usually deprecate the old apis but keep it for support even on newer SDKs.

 

[Colbert]

How could you possibly know that? Unless you know what those API changes are and how they might affect a particulr engine or game? It would be great if this is true, but I think you're jumping the gun. We need to see what developers outside Microsoft are saying when it comes to updating their games.

I derive that info from a simple thing: This is how it works for every API out there, in any programming language, on any operating system. Thats the reason APIs exist as they provide a well defined interface for input and output for a given life cycle. If APIs usually gets a overhaul it is common practice to keep exisiting API calls unchanged and introduce new calls to the APIs for providing new capabilities.

 

[mas8705]

Microsoft continues to make it difficult for me to not want an Xbox One X with each passing day. Still not planning on getting it at launch, but still it is a definite possibility in the future.

 

[Liliana Eileen]

Somebody asked for a TL;DR

• Games with a 1080p target on Xbox One can be native 4K with some performance headroom on Xbox One X
• Games with a 900p target on Xbox One can reach native 4K with some optimisation on Xbox One X
• Games with a 720p target on Xbox One can not reach native 4K but quite easily 2160p CBR on Xbox One X
  [*]Unpatched Xbox One games compiled with any XDK before Release July 2017 can make use about 3TF of the Xbox One X which will lead to locked frame rates and highest possible target resolution if it was not CPU bound
• Just a recompile of older titles will give the game full access to the 6TF of the GPU which will result in a patch

This is really good news and some of the questions for the future will be:

1. How many games of the current catalog will get just that simple recompile patch?
2. How many titles will get a full patch with an increased frame buffer to 4K?
3. How many titles with a 900p target on Xbox One will eventually be indeed native 4K on Xbox One X when released/patched?

Holy. Shit.

This is amazing news. People made a massive deal about PS4 Boost mode and what this offers for every unmatched older XB1 game is almost 50% more better than that.

And aside from that, the entire list is awesome and very good news.

Funny seeing a few people on the first few pages not read the OP and try to pull the faux concern card. What a backfire, lol.

 

[Okami Haundo]

Microsoft continues to make it difficult for me to not want an Xbox One X with each passing day. Still not planning on getting it at launch, but still it is a definite possibility in the future.

That's the dilemma that I'm facing. Right now I've convinced myself that I don't need one, but my resolve weakens every day.

This article definitely doesn't help my case. Seeing that current games could see such a dramatic improvement while running unpatched is... woo. *wipes sweat*

 

[Popsickles]

... so what do all those graphs mean exactly?

Nothing without context, just hype building

 

[Liliana Eileen]

Which is sad because it was nothing but a salty troll lol. Kind of sums up GAF these days though.

What an ironic post, looking at your post history.

And why do you constantly keep asking for threads to be closed, mods to issue bans, question moderation policy and keep badmouthing GAF? Because you were banned a few times and don't like positive Xbox news? Your shtick is extremely obvious.