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[TrackZ]

Who would want to buy a closed system that will be outdated every 24 months. The point most people buy a console is that it'll last for "one generation". PC components, on the other hand, have to be upgraded every 24 months or so. And if you choose to invest the price of a scorpio every two years into your gaming setup, you will always be top notch.

So why would you want to invest that money into a completely new but closed system every two years?

I really hope that that's not the future of console gaming but rather the indication that current consoles were weak hardware-wise when released (they were, right?)

Me.

It's not outdated though. Even if they rev every 2 years, more than likely new games would support 3 revisions back. If you don't upgrade, you still get 6 years worth of games. What's the problem with that?

Buying a new Scorpio every couple years (while selling your old model) will still cost much less than keeping a gaming PC up to date with latest hardware.

I absolutely hope this is the future of console hardware. No generational cliff, back/forward compatibility. It's amazing. All in simple plug-and-play devices that can be better kept up to date with latest technology.

 

[Septic360]

Man Sony just come out and spill the beans ffs. Another few months of this speculation? It's too much p_p

 

[Averon]

From OsirisBlack's posts, it sounds like Sony haven't even locked down the hardware yet. Option A is the 4.2 TF option widely rumored, and option B is a super expensive ~5.5 TF option. I'm going to guess Sony will ultimately stick largely with option A, maybe incorporating some elements of option B where they can.

A >$499 console is dead in the water, and Sony knows it from past experience (PS3).

 

[Samurai G0SU]

If they don't show any in-engine real time gameplay utilizing the scropio... dead in ze water.

this new convo about a sony option b is quite interesting! I wish they said something at e3, i do like their Media support more.

 

[Lys Skygge]

From OsirisBlack's posts, it sounds like Sony haven't even locked down the hardware yet. Option A is the 4.2 TF option widely rumored, and option B is a super expensive ~5.5 TF option. I'm going to guess Sony will ultimately stick largely with option A, maybe incorporating some elements of option B where they can.

A >$499 console is dead in the water, and Sony knows it from past experience (PS3).

Yep. No way a console that costs over $500 will sell well. Sony learned that the hard way. If Microsoft can offer what they're pitching for under $500, then damn, my hats off to them. Otherwise, the only people that will buy a Scorpio are enthusiasts that have the money to spare.

 

[crab rangoon]

So a 40% better GPU is now better by a wide margin, but it was pretty negligible between the PS4 and XB1 for DF.

The difference is measured in flops, not percentages. Computing doesn't give a shit about percentages. PS4's advantage translates into a few more frames per second here and there, a bit better res in some games. That's typically about it. The delta between PS4K and Scorpio is almost 4 times as large as between PS4/X1.

Now that MS is talking about "those sweet uncompressed pixels", I don't think we're too far off from DF making a big deal about resolution again, "that it matters" again...... and 5-10 fps differences matter and will be a 'world of difference" again.

What? They have always talked up res differences. Even when the difference in angular resolution (which, btw, is what actually matters to the eye) between 900/1080p when sitting 6-8 feet from your TV is negligible.

I just don't understand how these guys even put their speculation pieces together.

Well they did actually bring out some meaningful speculation about RAM amount that is pretty important imho. So that's a nice catch by them.

Surely, speaking about all that power, you would want to showcase it with exclusives since MS maintains it's up to developers if they want to have their game only on Scorpio.

No, MS is absolutely not 'maintaining' that message. They have literally said the polar opposite. Go check that thread to catch up (read the OP).

Interestingly, October 2016 falls just in-line with Sony's rumoured Neo release...

...rumored by whom? Osiris's info was Q1 2017 iirc. Got a link by chance? Also, you seem eager to paint Neo as having Vega and Scorpio as having Polaris. Why?

I'm also pretty sure that the Vega 10 GPU's would also easily exceed 6TF of power even at lower clockspeeds, since Vega has an even higher performance per watt ratio over polaris.

Ha, ok actually nevermind my previous question. I think I see why you are twisting things around to support a strange scenario. You seem to want to cling to the idea that Neo will somehow end up more powerful thanks to some utterly massive upclock and a Vega architecture while Scorpio's capabilities are being embellished and is likely using inferior architecture to Neo. That's the impression your post gives. :[

There's no way these devs can speak of 60fps...

Excuse me, but wtf? There is literally no more qualified group of folks to talk on this matter than actual devs targeting Scorpio. Thank god you are here to clear up the nonsense coming from these devs. /s

I'll tell you something, it's not happening with Jaguar CPU's, but that statement form Bethesda is certainly ironic with their output in recent years.

He is referring to Fallout VR coming to Scorpio I think.

 

[JaggedSac]

At the price point they currently have for it.... not very.

We talkin $600?

 

[crab rangoon]

From OsirisBlack's posts, it sounds like Sony haven't even locked down the hardware yet. Option A is the 4.2 TF option widely rumored, and option B is a super expensive ~5.5 TF option. I'm going to guess Sony will ultimately stick largely with option A, maybe incorporating some elements of option B where they can.

A >$499 console is dead in the water, and Sony knows it from past experience (PS3).

Have a link to his post regarding the 5.5 TF figure specifically? Thanks in advance!

EDIT: Nevermind! Just saw it.

 

[bidguy]

i doubt scorpio will be over 450 they wont make the same mistake again ....

 

[Quazar]

So how is it that we are so sure on neo even is 4.2? Was this confirmed? What if neo isn't even that high? Or higher?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Option B, >$500 and still below Scorpio. Sony have lost their minds if that is their plan, IMO.

Assuming option B is Zen and option A is Jaguar then is it realistic that Sony had AMD have both designs made? And in the meantime Sony made and sent out option A dev kits while they chose which to go for?

If, on the other hand, both options are different clock speeds for a single Jaguar option SoC, then the pricing makes no sense. High-end model or not, $500-$600 would be crazy.

*Something* clearly has changed very recently though with Sony pre-announcing no Neo at E3. I have no idea why they did that.

 

[DeepEnigma]

This is sort of correct, but you're saying it incorrectly. The game's assets are rendered at 4K and then outputted to the TV at whatever resolution output you have selected on your console. If you choose output at 1080p, it's downsampled from the original 4K render. The TV is a slave to whatever resolution is fed to it, unless it has some proprietary upscaling engine that fakes a higher resolution.

Right on. Only time the TV takes over is if you have a 4K TV scaling the 1080p output from the consoles now.

 

[Trup1aya]

Can anyone provide any insight on how much it would cost to build a Scorpio equivalent PC off the shelf?

Also when can we expect the 4K tv market to achieve mass appeal? At the present it seems the extra processing power would be better used to improve the pixel quality of 1080p games rather than targeting higher resolutions.

Also am inb4 people suggesting that MS announcing new console hardware is actually a sign that they are leaving the console market? Lol

 

[saskuatch]

If Sony is struggling to meet Scorpios specs at 500 then Microsoft must be using its deep pockets and planning on selling Scorpio at a large loss in order to gain market share back.

 

[jimbobsmells]

*Something* clearly has changed very recently though with Sony pre-announcing no Neo at E3. I have no idea why they did that.

Variety of reasons: Could force Microsoft's hand, getting them to announce too to stop the perception that they are falling behind. Stops the media asking questions about Neo at E3, which allows them to focus on their conference and PSVR. Trying to calm the rampant speculation online.

 

[Wagram]

The 60hz line was one of the few at E3 I chuckled at.

60hz is a major feature in 2016 folks.

 

[vpance]

This is 2016/2017, $499+ is acceptable if the tech is fresh, and it is. These are for the core buyers, people. Both still have their low end models to count on for their bread and butter anyways.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Fuck 4K. Let me play at 1080p with super graphics.

.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Variety of reasons: Could force Microsoft's hand, getting them to announce too to stop the perception that they are falling behind. Stops the media asking questions about Neo at E3, which allows them to focus on their conference and PSVR. Trying to calm the rampant speculation online.

Well that didn't work...

It was the fact by doing it they confirmed Neo. Normally they just stay silent or when asked just respond with the standard 'we do not comment on rumours'.

 

[jimbobsmells]

This is 2016/2017, $499+ is acceptable if the tech is fresh, and it is. These are for the core buyers, people. Both still have their low end models to count on for their bread and butter anyways.

$499+ is a different proposition when there is a lower priced but equally capable* console available too.
*apart from the compressed pixels

 

[BleedOrange]

This is 2016/2017, $499+ is acceptable if the tech is fresh, and it is. These are for the core buyers, people. Both still have their low end models to count on for their bread and butter anyways.

$499 is well outside of mainstream though. At that price you cant count on rapid or wide acceptance.

 

[geordiemp]

From what I am hearing even if Sony opts for option B the Scorpio will still be the lead console in terms of raw power.

Maybe, but if sony do opt for option B, it will more likely meet the performance gamers and developers need to be happy.

Lets face it, nearly every poster wants 1080p60, games like Fallout 4 or Witcher 3 in 60 FPS if a Neo mode is offered.

As long as option B delivers on 60 FPS gaming for complex games, it will sell well.

If scorpio goes more than Sony Option B and can do 4K at 30 FPS but not 60....its kinda wasted and nobody would care for the difference.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Assuming is their option B is Zen and option A is Jaguar then is it realistic that Sony had AMD have both designs made?

It's likely Sony commissioned two designs, and also AMD likely already knew something iterative was coming and designed things specifically so they could offer more solutions for both MS and Sony.

 

[CrispyBoar]

This is 2016/2017, $499+ is acceptable if the tech is fresh, and it is. These are for the core buyers, people. Both still have their low end models to count on for their bread and butter anyways.

$499+ isn't on the mass market level, though. Average consumers aren't going to shell out that much money just for an upgrade of PS4 or Xbox One when they can just simply shell out $300 - $350 just for PS4 or Xbox One themselves.

 

[Averon]

I could see Sony going with option B if their aim is to market and position the Neo as a super premium "enthusiast" option while keeping the OG PS4 as the standards bearer for the PS4 brand until the PS5.

 

[Trup1aya]

If Sony is struggling to meet Scorpios specs at 500 then Microsoft must be using its deep pockets and planning on selling Scorpio at a large loss in order to gain market share back.

well there is up to a 1yr gap between these console launches. Maybe the xb1 sounds really expensive to make now, but will be less so then.

OR maybe selling at or near profit is important to Sony more so than matching MS hardware.

OR maybe MS doesn't expect Scorpio to be a mass market product, and is trying to create a premium class of console.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Well that didn't work...

It was the fact by doing it they confirmed Neo. Normally they just stay silent or when asked just respond with the standard 'we do not comment on rumours'.

Yet look at all the gamers hyped about their games. Worked how they wanted it to.

 

[vpance]

$499+ is a different proposition when there is a lower priced but equally capable* console available too.
*apart from the compressed pixels

Not sure I get you. If it's about Scorpio, that has no price yet either.

$499 is well outside of mainstream though. At that price you cant count on rapid or wide acceptance.

Well, yeah. That's what the low end model is for. Scorpio and Neo won't be 20M sellers until a price cut or two, 3-4 years down the line.

 

[crab rangoon]

If scorpio goes more than Sony Option B and can do 4K at 30 FPS but not 60....its kinda wasted and nobody would care for the difference.

Loads of people cared (deeply and irrationally in some cases) about the half a TF difference between PS4/X1. It's highly unlikely devs wouldn't scale up effects, lighting, etc. to soak up that 0.5 TF gap. Devs do it today even with res parity on X1/PS4. Dunno why they would suddenly stop

 

[Bsigg12]

If scorpio goes more than Sony Option B and can do 4K at 30 FPS but not 60....its kinda wasted and nobody would care for the difference.

There is a very vocal minority that absolutely make a large deal about that. There's a reason Digital Foundry is growing, it's because people really do look for those differences.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

So the Scorpio will feature a GPU almost on par with the upcoming 1070? That is tagged at 500$?

Plus 12 gig Ram and a current CPU, this thing will be pretty expensive, 500 to 700$. And to be honest. This is not a home console anymore, this is just a PC with a really bad OS and limited usage features....

No, not even close to the 1070 and even with the "Founders Edition" bullshit it's not 500USD.

I don't understand why so many people seem negative about Scorpio. It seems like it's going to be a beast of a console, similar to what Xbox and 360 were at the time of their release. I love the Xbox live ecosystem, and after learning their lesson from an underpowered xbone they seem to be delivering big time. I can't wait to get my hands on this thing!

It's not in the XB360's wheelhouse in 2005, it's a low mid-range AMD GPU by 2016 standards, lower by the time 2017 rolls around.

 

[ResoRai]

The 60hz line was one of the few at E3 I chuckled at.

60hz is a major feature in 2016 folks.

I mean, a lot of console games don't run at 60 fps.

Having Forza Horizons 3, Scalebound, Gears 4 (not just mp) run at 60 fps would be awesome, especially with "uncomprimised" or increased visual fidelity.

 

[Proelite]

No, not even close to the 1070 and even with the "Founders Edition" bullshit it's not 500USD.

It's not in the XB360's wheelhouse in 2005, it's a low mid-range AMD GPU by 2016 standards, lower by the time 2017 rolls around.

Is the 390x mid ranged for AMD in 2016? I am thinking Scorpio would be high end by 2016 amd standards. And mid range by 2017 standards.

 

[geordiemp]

Yep. No way a console that costs over $500 will sell well. Sony learned that the hard way. If Microsoft can offer what they're pitching for under $500, then damn, my hats off to them. Otherwise, the only people that will buy a Scorpio are enthusiasts that have the money to spare.

Why ? Ps3 was allot and sold reasonable. You have to remember Neo is the elite model, if they can sell 10-15 million of them and keep the ENTHUSIASTS with disposable income happy, then job done.

Remember the standard Ps4 is still $ 350 and will probably drop to $ 300, so an enthusiast model should be peforming well above it..

I dont see the point of a $ 499 enthusiast model that struggles to run games at 60 FPS - can you imagine Witcher 3 capping out at 55 FPS (if it gets a Neo mode). It maybe be cheaper but whats the purpose ?

A $ 550 Ps4 that plays Witcher 3 or Souls or Bloodborne at 60 FPS locked at 1080p will be attractive, and more importantly will maybe tempt those consumers who might switch to Scorpio.

No way Does Sony want consumers with high spending habits, possibly buy lots of games every year, to switch to Scorpio.

 

[Pop]

Games will not be native 4K. Bunch of buzzwords is all Microsoft used. No way will this system cost more than $500.

 

[DesertFox]

So a 40% better GPU is now better by a wide margin, but it was pretty negligible between the PS4 and XB1 for DF.

TIL 0.52 TFlops = 1.8 TFlops.

 

[Gamesadict]

Sony should just delay the Neo IMO and wait for better pricing on Option B (maybe even OC it to 6TF and release it along Scorpio). I have been thinking about it, and I'm pretty sure MS didn't simply blindly reveal Scorpio, but they aimed for specs based on what they might have been hearing about Neo. Even if Scorpio is coming a year later, its Holiday release and the fact that people already know what to expect from it will put Neo in quite an awkward spot to be if they finally decide to release it this year/early 2017.

Besides, giving devs only 2 tiers to aim for will make things better for everyone, instead of 3 (1.2-1.8TF, 4TF, 6TF).

 

[gatti-man]

From OsirisBlack's posts, it sounds like Sony haven't even locked down the hardware yet. Option A is the 4.2 TF option widely rumored, and option B is a super expensive ~5.5 TF option. I'm going to guess Sony will ultimately stick largely with option A, maybe incorporating some elements of option B where they can.

A >$499 console is dead in the water, and Sony knows it from past experience (PS3).

A 4.2TF system against Scorpio will either even the generation sales wise or give it back to MS. That's a huge power disparity and it will be obvious on every game.

Sony should just delay the Neo IMO and wait for better pricing on Option B (maybe even OC it to 6TF and release it along Scorpio). I have been thinking about it, and I'm pretty sure MS didn't simply blindly reveal Scorpio, but they aimed for specs based on what they might have been hearing about Neo. Even if Scorpio is coming a year later, its Holiday release and the fact that people already know what to expect from it will put Neo in quite an awkward spot to be if they finally decide to release it this year/early 2017.

Besides, giving devs only 2 tiers to aim for will make things better for everyone, instead of 3 (1.2-1.8TF, 4TF, 6TF).

Agreed. I mean I'd prefer a 5.5TF system right now but if it means 4.2TF or waiting just wait.

 

[Terbinator]

More salt flowing than a chippy.

 

[OsirisBlack]

Games will not be native 4K. Bunch of buzzwords is all Microsoft used. No way will this system cost more than $500.

Scorpio will be able to run SOME games at native 4k. Doubt any of them will be 60fps unless were talking indies.

 

[DeepEnigma]

TIL 0.4 TFlops = 1.8 TFlops.

0.52TFloppys or something.

 

[jroc74]

I dont get why some are hung up on Neo not being as powerful as Scorpio.

I dont think the Neo was supposed to be Sony's next gen console. I assume the Scorpio is for MS. I would hope the Scorpio would leapfrog the Neo if this is MS's next gen console.

Even if it isnt as powerful.....so what..lol.

And has it been confirmed that Sony was supposed to introduce the Neo at E3? Because it seems to me them bringing out VR was their hardware part of their show.

 

[Stevey]

I guess no one can say for sure but if I buy a Scorpio and hook it up to a 1080 TV, will I get better framerate, or will it just downsample from 4K?

 

[ninjablade]

Why ? Ps3 was allot and sold reasonable. You have to remember Neo is the elite model, if they can sell 10-15 million of them and keep the ENTHUSIASTS with disposable income happy, then job done.

Remember the standard Ps4 is still $ 350 and will probably drop to $ 300, so an enthusiast model should be peforming well above it..

I dont see the point of a $ 499 enthusiast model that struggles to run games at 60 FPS - can you imagine Witcher 3 capping out at 55 FPS (if it gets a Neo mode). It maybe be cheaper but whats the purpose ?

A $ 550 Ps4 that plays Witcher 3 or Souls or Bloodborne at 60 FPS locked at 1080p will be attractive, and more importantly will maybe tempt those consumers who might switch to Scorpio.

No way Does Sony want consumers with high spending habits, possibly buy lots of games every year, to switch to Scorpio.

i agree with you you here, if sony is gonna make a enthusiast model, they should do it right, with neo specs right now, the upgrade is just not worth it right now, and there is now way wither will even run at 55fps with the weak cpu in neo.

I dont get why some are hung up on Neo not being as powerful as Scorpio.

I dont think the Neo was supposed to be Sony's next gen console. I assume the Scorpio is for MS. I would hope the Scorpio would leapfrog the Neo if this is MS's next gen console.

Even if it isnt as powerful.....so what..lol.

And has it been confirmed that Sony was supposed to introduce the Neo at E3? Because it seems to me them bringing out VR was their hardware part of their show.

i don't care about it not being as powerful as scorpio, its just the upgrade is not all the great, its really small upgrade for a enthusiast model.

 

[haveheart]

Me.

It's not outdated though. Even if they rev every 2 years, more than likely new games would support 3 revisions back. If you don't upgrade, you still get 6 years worth of games. What's the problem with that?

Buying a new Scorpio every couple years (while selling your old model) will still cost much less than keeping a gaming PC up to date with latest hardware.

I absolutely hope this is the future of console hardware. No generational cliff, back/forward compatibility. It's amazing. All in simple plug-and-play devices that can be better kept up to date with latest technology.

You can sell pc parts so that's no argument. And how will they do "backwards compatibility" (which isn't that because it's the same upgraded system, not a new generation of systems). Will games run like shit on old Scorpios/Neos? Will you be able to adjust graphics to your console revision? Like there are three setting for One, S, Scorpio?

It's fine that you like it, I, personally, just see it as a closed PC system without all the benefits of a PC.

 

[Proelite]

I guess no one can say for sure but if I buy a Scorpio and hook it up to a 1080 TV, will I get better framerate, or will it just downsample from 4K?

Depends on the devs. It might not even look different from Xb1 if the devs don't do the optimization.

 

[geordiemp]

Scorpio will be able to run SOME games at native 4k. Doubt any of them will be 60fps unless were talking indies.

The extra power is pointless then isnt it, console power is needed to hit a threshold, so without 60 FPS at 4K, consumers to a T would want 1080p60.

Just hope sony are smart enough to pick the option that allows Horizon and GOW at 60 FPS at 1080 without compromise (and all 3rd party games if devs give that option)

They could market it as 60 FPS capable enthusiast model, hell thats what everyone really wants.

I have not seen any posts where gamers would prefer 4K at 30 FPS.

 

[DesertFox]

0.52TFloppys or something.

Ah, fixed!

 

[saskuatch]

The extra power is pointless then isnt it, console power is needed to hit a threshold, so without 60 FPS at 4K, consumers to a T would want 1080p60.

Just hope sony are smart enough to pick the option that allows Horizon and GOW at 60 FPS at 1080 without compromise (and all 3rd party games if devs give that option)

They could market it as 60 FPS capable enthusiast model, hell thats what everyone really wants.

I have not seen any posts where gamers would prefer 4K at 30 FPS.

I prefer 4k at 30fps for most non fps games, that's what I do on PC, rather have the eye candy. Only for multiplayer do I go for 60

 

[Fisty]

So maybe MS was trying to force Sony's hand, make them regroup and push the Neo out later to get a more powerful box cheaper in late 2017. 9-12 month headstart for Sony is exactly what MS doesnt need right now.

Im not sure Sony fell for it though. Honestly its probably just MS jumping in to show everyone how forward-thinking and innovative they are, even though they are once again lttp. They might not be first to do it, but dammit theyre going to tell everyone it was their idea.