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[velociraptor]

This is how I feel. I don't have much of an interest in 4k when I'm not buying a new TV any time soon and current consoles can't even hit 60fps/1080p reliably across all games.

Let's do that first. Give me 60fps rock solid 1080p. I'm good there.

This is exactly what I want.

I'm currently playing Halo 4 on the X1 and it still looks pretty good despite being a 360 port, and critically, it plays well (although the game is somewhat dire). Why? 1080p60.

Let's be honest - we all forget about pretty graphics after 5 mins of playing a game. If it runs like shit, it doesn't matter how good it looks.

60FPS should be the priority.

 

[zackmorris]

I just don't believe that this will be capable of true 4K gaming. 1080 at 60 across the board, sure. But there are more powerful machines now that can't pull 4K at 60. Maybe it's different when games are optimized for this specific machine (the way UC4 pulled off its graphics) but I'm skeptical.

 

[Quotient]

At the end of the day I own a PC and a PS4, which is what I think is the best bet going forward. I'm gonna get a Neo because I really want to play games like Horizon, Last Guardian, Days Gone, God of War IV in the highest possbile quality. Also multiplayer- most of my friends own PS4's so there's that.

PC for everything else.

After this E3 i think the PC + PS4 combination is probably going to be the strategy going forward for a lot of gamers, especially with Microsoft ready to move onto new hardware in 18 months time.

 

[Josh378]

Give me one reason why I should buy the new Xbox and spend $500 instead of just getting the latest 12 teraflop GPU for my PC when it comes out and play exactly the same game but with twice the quality. See, this is the Dilemma Microsoft has opened up. New Xbox or buy superior GPU + Xbox controller?

 

[nelchaar]

Sony's spec advantage will go away in 18 months from today.

And return in 12 months past that.

And disappear 12 months after that.

And return in 12 months past that.

Then disappear again.

Then return again.

Today's console arm race ladies and gents. So much truth in this.

 

[IvorB]

Well whatever my thoughts on this mid-gen refresh madness, it is heartening to see a console maker return to an all out arms race in terms of power. That's better than delivering some middle-of-the-road, budget boxes and calling it a day.

 

[Proelite]

Give me one reason why I should buy the new Xbox and spend $500 instead of just getting the latest 12 teraflop GPU for my PC when it comes out and play exactly the same game but with twice the quality. See, this is the Dilemma Microsoft has opened up. New Xbox or buy superior GPU + Xbox controller?

No reason. I am guessing MS is happy either way, unless you game on mac or Linux.

 

[IvorB]

Give me one reason why I should buy the new Xbox and spend $500 instead of just getting the latest 12 teraflop GPU for my PC when it comes out and play exactly the same game but with twice the quality. See, this is the Dilemma Microsoft has opened up. New Xbox or buy superior GPU + Xbox controller?

Don't they win both ways? That new PC will surely be running Windows.

 

[Beerman462]

I don't see why the scorpio would be so expensive 18 months from now.

It won't. I can build an 8 core AMD/480 system for $600 next month easily. Thats with 8GBs of system ram, but another 8GBs is $25. So how anyone could think this system would be anywhere near that 18 months from now is beyond me.

An example from the beginning of last gen.

The AMD 270 released 11/13/13 for $179 @ 2.3TF. That around the time of the PS4. 3 months later the AMD 265 released for $149 @ 1.84 TF.

The 7850 released 2 years earlier for $250. My guess is we will have a $150-179 6TF card when the Scorpio releases.

This means $599 is not happening. My guess it will be $399.

 

[thuway]

yea i see where you're coming from, but wouldn't you rather have all those game run 60fps for a 100$-149$ more, aside from that i wouldn't have to build a pc, and save tons of money because neo is not being held back by a shiity cpu for thirdparty games.

Did Microsoft officially announce they were going with Zen CPU cores? Or is that all speculation? Because Zen is a very hot part. I think you'll see less and less bottlenecks as devs do more GPGPU work. Something's gotta give :/.

 

[ninjablade]

Don't they win both ways? That new PC will surely be running Windows.

yea but the xbox one version is a locked version, you can't buy games on steam or download emulators.

 

[...Scatter...]

Did Microsoft officially announce they were going with Zen CPU cores? Or is that all speculation? Because Zen is a very hot part. I think you'll see less and less bottlenecks as devs do more GPGPU work. Something's gotta give :/.

95w rumored, for 4 full power cores. Not to too bad. I expect console versions to be downclocked.

 

[dragonelite]

I dont get why adding CPU, drives, casing etc increases the price of a downclocked $229 card to $499.

Game is hard.

Need to recovery R&D cost for tech and operating system development.

 

[Nephtes]

Need to recovery R&D cost for tech and operating system development.

Subtract the OS cost out of there. There's pretty much no chance Scorpio and Neo dont use the existing platform OS's...

 

[On Demand]

You guys should pay more attention to Sneakers.

 

[Hawk269]

This is how I feel. I don't have much of an interest in 4k when I'm not buying a new TV any time soon and current consoles can't even hit 60fps/1080p reliably across all games.

Let's do that first. Give me 60fps rock solid 1080p. I'm good there.

That is what you will get if a developer decides to use the extra power that the Scorpio provided. Phil Spence himself said that it would be up to developer to use the power of the system. I would venture to guess that we will get a lot of games that are 1080p or even downsampled from 1440p to 1080p to improve IQ even more with all the other graphical things like AF, AA, Draw distance etc.

 

[Crayon]

It won't. I can build an 8 core AMD/480 system for $600 next month easily. Thats with 8GBs of system ram, but another 8GBs is $25. So how anyone could think this system would be anywhere near that 18 months from now is beyond me.

An example from the beginning of last gen.

The AMD 270 released 11/13/13 for $179 @ 2.3TF. That around the time of the PS4. 3 months later the AMD 265 released for $149 @ 1.84 TF.

The 7850 released 2 years earlier for $250. My guess is we will have a $150-179 6TF card when the Scorpio releases.

This means $599 is not happening. My guess it will be $399.

Yes this is how I'm thinking and im betting on 399. More expensive versions with bigger hdd and elite contoroller, sure. But 399 to start off with.

 

[geordiemp]

You guys should pay more attention to Sneakers.

Which page, cannot find Sneaker in this thread. Is that SneakerSO ?

 

[Trup1aya]

Give me one reason why I should buy the new Xbox and spend $500 instead of just getting the latest 12 teraflop GPU for my PC when it comes out and play exactly the same game but with twice the quality. See, this is the Dilemma Microsoft has opened up. New Xbox or buy superior GPU + Xbox controller?

This isn't a "dilemma". They don't care whether you choose to play their games on PC or on console... So long as you are buying their games.

 

[geordiemp]

95w rumored, for 4 full power cores. Not to too bad. I expect console versions to be downclocked.

Is 4 cores enough for the console comparability even if down clocked ?

 

[On Demand]

Which page, cannot find Sneaker in this thread. Is that SneakerSO ?

Yes.

Not in this thread.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Man some really want so hard that Sony wins this dick contest of flops...

Sry but i doubt that they havent locked down the specs etc yet. This is just wishful thinking.


If what Shinobi heard is true, Sony will show Neo at Paris Game week. Release? probably Early 2017 or even this year.

It's not about winning a contest. If you only game on console, you want to have the best possible tech in an upgraded ps4. I mean I would rather have Sony get to the point where the difference is negllible and charge top dollar for it, versus an upgrade that will be significantly outshined a year later. I don't care what it costs really, I'll get it when it's affordable.

 

[martino]

There is no point in an enthusiast model at $ 399 if core ps4 is $ 350 at the moment.

Especially if its gimped and cannot run games at 60 FPS in 1080.

What is the purpose of the 399 box ? To run 30 FPS games at 45 FPS ?

Are ps4 game 900p at 45 fps ? And if it is more stable 30 fps with better shader / IQ / draw distance ?
Not the same reasoning. Not trying to downplay the difference here and most of all a more probable one....

 

[Synth]

Yes.

Not in this thread.

I haven't been paying much attention to his recent posts... but my last memory of him, was him arguing with me claiming that the new Xbox couldn't be BC without having the exact architecture of the original XB1, or relying wholly on a software emulation solution...

 

[Journey]

Serious question: I'm considering getting the Neo and Scorpio except I don't have a 4k TV and I don't plan to get one any time soon, obviously the improvements will still benefit one with a 1080p TV right?

Absolutely, in fact I do think the focus will be to hit 1080p rather than 4k. It's really up to devs, you can expect some games that aren't as intensive, like Ori and the Blind Forest, a game like that can support 4K on Scorpio, while a game with a more complicated engine like Battlefront will focus on 1080p with the visuals cranked up to 11.

If you had a 4K TV you would also benefit from HDR, even if the game is only rendered at 1080p. Both Xbox S and Scorpio can take advantage of the high dynamic range capability of these displays... and of course 4K blu-ray playback, which is nice and makes me want to upgrade my TV now

 

[Josh378]

So basically Microsoft really doesn't care if the Scorpion doesn't put them in first place in the console sales. Because I'm really confused on their strategy I'm trying to take over the console Market using the Scorpio. Microsoft need to differentiate themselves from the PC and the consoles. I'm really confused on their marketing strategy right now. This is like 2014 all over again.

 

[Syrus]

I just don't believe that this will be capable of true 4K gaming. 1080 at 60 across the board, sure. But there are more powerful machines now that can't pull 4K at 60. Maybe it's different when games are optimized for this specific machine (the way UC4 pulled off its graphics) but I'm skeptical.

It depends on the game. Indies and low budget games it can probably do 4k since alot arent intensive graphics.

Like The Banner Saga would be an easy 4k but xcom wouldnt etc.

I dont expect native 4k for AAA

 

[Syrus]

So basically Microsoft really doesn't care if the Scorpion doesn't put them in first place in the console sales. Because I'm really confused on their strategy I'm trying to take over the console Market using the Scorpio. Microsoft need to differentiate themselves from the PC and the consoles. I'm really confused on their marketing strategy right now. This is like 2014 all over again.

Options are bad? Ok. This is the best news theyve put out in years.

Ill be buying a 4k TV maybe this holiday or early 2017 now.

 

[Hip Hop]

Give me one reason why I should buy the new Xbox and spend $500 instead of just getting the latest 12 teraflop GPU for my PC when it comes out and play exactly the same game but with twice the quality. See, this is the Dilemma Microsoft has opened up. New Xbox or buy superior GPU + Xbox controller?

I'm sure that's a dilemma to some, but most will stick to what they know, and that's console gaming. I don't see them hurting that much in that front.

I just don't believe that this will be capable of true 4K gaming. 1080 at 60 across the board, sure. But there are more powerful machines now that can't pull 4K at 60. Maybe it's different when games are optimized for this specific machine (the way UC4 pulled off its graphics) but I'm skeptical.

It can definitely be pulled off, depending on the graphics.

 

[...Scatter...]

Is 4 cores enough for the console comparability even if down clocked ?

Phil said 8 cores so we'll see. 4 cores of Zen would absolutely beast out on 8 Jaguar cores though. I'm thinking AMD is making custom Zen for APUs.

 

[gamz]

So basically Microsoft really doesn't care if the Scorpion doesn't put them in first place in the console sales. Because I'm really confused on their strategy I'm trying to take over the console Market using the Scorpio. Microsoft need to differentiate themselves from the PC and the consoles. I'm really confused on their marketing strategy right now. This is like 2014 all over again.

What are you confused about? Options? You have a choice of a cheaper xbox one s or a more expensive powerhouse. That's it.

 

[Proelite]

What are you confused about? Options? You have a choice of a cheaper xbox one s or a more expensive powerhouse. That's it.

Hmm u lost me there.

 

[Giant Panda]

Digital Foundry brings up a good point about hard drive speeds possibly becoming a bit of a bottleneck in keeping the system fed. SSDs need to drop in price soon so that next gen can experience them in all their glory.

 

[Silphonica]

If Sony is struggling to meet Scorpios specs at 500 then Microsoft must be using its deep pockets and planning on selling Scorpio at a large loss in order to gain market share back.

So this is exactly what I thought would be the case. This is exactly what sony did with the ps3 after an absolute abysmal console launch.

Personally, I've preferred xbox, even a less powerful xboxone over ps4. I dont have any interest in ps4 exclusives and the controller quality is night and day.

Scorpio for me is a bonus surprise.

 

[Sarobi]

Sony's spec advantage will go away in 18 months from today.

And return in 12 months past that.

And disappear 12 months after that.

And return in 12 months past that.

Then disappear again.

Then return again.

Basically. The power argument will grow old in the next few years because we'll know what to expect from every new box that releases.

 

[thuway]

You guys should pay more attention to Sneakers.

This man is accurate.

 

[geordiemp]

Found 'something'

Neo is launching this year. $399. Tons of devs got kits, fall games are currently going to be supporting it. You'll be hearing about all this towards August/Sept. The Neo + VR combo is probably going to launch at the end of next year, when they introduce their VR-centric controller that they've been working on.

So if correct it looks like $ 399 and Eurogamer published specs, no changes to what has been leaked already..

 

[Proelite]

Found 'something'



So if correct it looks like $ 399 and Eurogamer published specs, no changes to what we know..

Hmm. If true. Wtf is OsirisBlack on about lol.

$399 is a worthy proposition next to the XboneS. It is 3 times more powerful with a more diverse library.

 

[blastprocessor]

Give me one reason why I should buy the new Xbox and spend $500 instead of just getting the latest 12 teraflop GPU for my PC when it comes out and play exactly the same game but with twice the quality. See, this is the Dilemma Microsoft has opened up. New Xbox or buy superior GPU + Xbox controller?

I've been saying a similar thing given their exclusive games are coming to PC. But if you're on a budget the console must be much cheaper than a PC for it to appeal.

 

[Quotient]

Hmm. If true. Wtf is OsirisBlack on about lol.

$399 is a worthy proposition next to the XboneS. It is 3 times more powerful with a more diverse library.

I remember reading something about october being the deadline for all PS4 games to include a neo mode, i.e. all games released after october must support both PS4 and Neo, that would strongly indicate to me that Sony are launching it for the holiday season this year.

 

[Sarobi]

Give me one reason why I should buy the new Xbox and spend $500 instead of just getting the latest 12 teraflop GPU for my PC when it comes out and play exactly the same game but with twice the quality. See, this is the Dilemma Microsoft has opened up. New Xbox or buy superior GPU + Xbox controller?

This is literally asking "Should I upgrade my Xbox, or should I buy a new Xbox"

 

[geordiemp]

Hmm. If true. Wtf is OsirisBlack on about lol.

$399 is a worthy proposition next to the XboneS. It is 3 times more powerful with a more diverse library.

$ 399 it would almost be phasing out the old ps4 for most new sales, whats the point for 50 bucks ?

Also different views, maybe one is commercial and one from the dev kit viewpoint ?

 

[Quotient]

This is literally asking "Should I upgrade my Xbox, or should I buy a new Xbox"

Since all games will also be released on PC, it is now "Should I upgarde my Xbox, buy the new Xbox, or upgrade my GPU"

$ 399 it would almost be phasing out the old ps4 for most new sales, whats the point for 50 bucks ?

I suspect Sony will drop price on the PS4.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

That it is confirmed that Scorpio is a 8-core CPU all but guarantees it being mobile class. Be that under the Jaguar or Zen Lite name. Even a down clocked Zen desktop CPU would use too much power. It also assumes Zen would be BC and given it is said to be a massive change for AMD compared to their previous chips...

I also think Sony are targeting a similar power usage as PS4 with Neo i.e 150W at the wall or lower. Microsoft might up their's a bit. Either way this means the SoC's alone will need to be in the 75-100W range. Add on BD drive, HDD,WiFi/Bluetooth chips, companion chip+RAM, 8-12GB GGDR5(X) RAM (biggest power hog) PSU losses etc and you soon come up to a 150W-180W wall figure.

 

[Hawk269]

Give me one reason why I should buy the new Xbox and spend $500 instead of just getting the latest 12 teraflop GPU for my PC when it comes out and play exactly the same game but with twice the quality. See, this is the Dilemma Microsoft has opened up. New Xbox or buy superior GPU + Xbox controller?

Ummm, wouldn't the PS4k (NEO) be the same thing? Do you ask yourself the same question when it comes to the NEO?

Wouldn't this be the same dilemma as you put it for Sony as well? I know it may shock you, but the majority of casual, let say that once more "casual" console gamers are not interested nor do they play PC games. Many people's gaming is primarily console, so for them a 12TF GPU is pointless.

 

[mrklaw]

Neo would still punch in under the Scorpio but not by much.

Edited to add:
For the sake of keeping confusion down 5.5 was the exact number I have heard floated about option b but the price is pretty steep. I do have a number but cannot share it yet I'm waiting on someone else to post the actual data (Should be soon) before I do another long post.

This would also suggest that Scorpio would also be an expensive machine.

Unless Sony we're looking at a more powerful machine but in a similar timeframe to neo - I.e. 6 months or more earlier than Scorpio, when yields would be worse and prices higher.

 

[Yoday]

$599 lol. NO CHANCE.

Maybe if it was coming this year and with those specs. An extra year gives the new 14nm tech time to mature and makes a world of difference to pricing.

The Scorpion is nice but come Holiday 2017 it ain't gonna be anything special.

Yeah, people are overestimating the pricing quite a bit. I will be shocked if the Scorpio is more than $400. By the time they start production the yields on 14nm will likely let them produce an APU about the same size or slightly larger than the XBO APU for the same price or slightly more than the XBO APU at launch. I have no idea why people keep throwing $500-$600 out there. For that big of a price Delta youre talking about a dedicated CPU and GPU, not a SoC. A $200-$300 SoC would be gigantic. Could you imagine a SoC twice the size of the XBO SoC, lol, it would be a monster, but also extremely power hungry.

I absolutely see the Scorpio launching at $400 with MS taking a hit on the hardware comparable to what the hit they took on XBO at launch, and the rise of digital distribution and their desire for W10 adoption likely means they are much more willing to take that same loss, if not a little more than they did before.

 

[geordiemp]

I also think Sony are targeting a similar power usage as PS4 with Neo i.e 150W at the wall or lower. Microsoft might up their's a bit. Either way this means the SoC's alone will need to be in the 75-100W range. Add on BD drive, HDD,WiFi/Bluetooth chips, companion chip+RAM, 8-12GB GGDR5(X) RAM (biggest power hog) PSU losses etc and you soon come up to a 150W-180W wall figure.

Maeks you worry about Ps5, how will Sony remain backward compatible in the future if they are stuck with Jaguar forever. At least MS have the virtual OS layer that we have read about...

You would hope zen uses same API's and would be invisible to the game code.

 

[...Scatter...]

Since all games will also be released on PC, it is now "Should I upgarde my Xbox, buy the new Xbox, or upgrade my GPU"



I suspect Sony will drop price on the PS4.

The upgrade was the GPU. He's saying the PC is an XBOX if you're buying Xbox games on it.

 

[gatti-man]

I just don't believe that this will be capable of true 4K gaming. 1080 at 60 across the board, sure. But there are more powerful machines now that can't pull 4K at 60. Maybe it's different when games are optimized for this specific machine (the way UC4 pulled off its graphics) but I'm skeptical.

It is easily achievable 4K at 30fps lock. However, the debate is moot because as a developer why would you do that when 90% of your player base can't use it? Best to do 1080p/60 and go nuts with AI and design.