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[Muppet of a Man]

Sony really has no reason to do this kind of thing. They're in the perfect position, everyone is convinced their box is better, and they don't need to explain why. MS PR is braindead. They shouldn't have ever talked about specs, and they certainly shouldn't still be doing it.

I'll give them credit for sharing and trying to explain the rational behind their choices. But I agree that it is not doing them any favors because, at they end of the day, their box is less powerful, less flexible, and less accessible in absolute terms relative to their direct competition. Yet, it still costs more.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

Numbers don't mean anything unless it translates into the actual games. We seen time and again the concessions made on the PS3 even though on paper it was technically superior. This of course is about multiplat games which account for most titles on both the PS3 and XBox 360 and will once again be the case on the PS4 and XBox One.

Once these games hit the new consoles the wait will finally be over about how each stacks up with one another. It's interesting to say the least of all the arguments/debates going on back and forth compared to how the end result will be. To me the new Mario game coming out on the Wii U looks great but for others playing a numbers game is more enthralling even though the PC can dump all over the consoles.

I think it's fair to say the XBox camp and the Playstation camp are the problem, they seem to account for most of the arguing and bashing that takes place in forums. They were the most vocal in the current generation and it looks to be the case moving forward.

 

[EGM1966]

Well, without going into any theoretical biases, it's easy to see why people would think so. If you copypaste the titles of Next Gen articles from Digital Foundry since August, you'll see this.

Xbox One:

Digital Foundry: the complete Xbox One architects interview - The whole story.
Microsoft to unlock more GPU power for Xbox One developers - Kinect and app reservations will be accessible to game-makers.
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects - "There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it. We're actually extremely proud of our design."
Xbox One exclusive Ryse runs at 900p - Full HD off the table for Crytek's showcase. Digital Foundry assesses the news
Xbox One CPU speed increased by 9.375 per cent - 1.6GHz processor bumped up to 1.75GHz in production hardware.
Beyond live TV - what the Xbox One user interface means for gamers - Digital Foundry on the next-gen dash, voice control... and Kinect.
Digital Foundry vs. Respawn: the Titanfall interview - Xbox One, the cloud, the Source Engine - and the 1080p60 question
Xbox One graphics speed increased by 6.62 per cent - GPU receives post-E3 53MHz speed boost.

PS4:

Digital Foundry vs. Resogun - Head-to-head with Housemarque, plus exclusive PlayStation 4 60fps gameplay video.
Mark Cerny: lead architect of... PlayStation Vita? - PS4 design chief also responsible for Sony's handheld.



It's probably safe to say DF is more interested in Xbox One, or Microsoft really wants to talk to them all the time. Or Sony PR could just be slacking off since they're in the publicity lead.

See this is my issue with DF at the moment. Not the articles as such (although the title for the GPU one does look suspicious) but the ratio of XB1 to PS4 articles.

In my view for DF to be credible there has to be at least a similar level of coverage for each, which just isn't the case. Now maybe MS are just opening up more (or feel they have to more) but DF should be reaching out to Sony to at least request similar deep dive interviews but it just feels like their attention is squarely focused on giving MS and XB1 lots of coverage at the moment.

This is not balanced.

 

[Chaplain]

This is from the last big thread.

X1 GPU:
1.18 TF GPU (12 CUs) for games
768 Shaders
48 Texture units
16 ROPS
2 ACE/ 16 queues

PS4 GPU:
1.84TF GPU ( 18 CUs) for games + 56%
1152 Shaders +50%
72 Texture units +50%
32 ROPS + 100%
8 ACE/64 queues +400%

Is Digital Foundry saying that hardware doesn't mean what it has always meant? Also, that regardless of specs of the X1, X1 is not only more powerful than PS4 but its also more efficient?

 

[gruenel]

There won't be much difference between the launch games, as everyone knows.

I'll reserve my judgement on that until I actually see launch games on both consoles. To be honest I would be surprised if there wasn't any visible differences.

 

[StuBurns]

I'll give them credit for sharing and trying to explain the rational behind their choices. But I agree that it is not doing them any favors because, at they end of the day, their box is less powerful, less flexible, and less accessible in absolute terms relative to their direct competition. Yet, it still costs more.

It seems pretty obvious that if you don't have the best specs, there's no value in discussing them, and it's not 2005 anymore, the public is accustom to Apple saying 'It's like 8 times better? Not sure, just buy it, it's rad'. No one needed to know the XBO specs, all it did was discredit the fanboy elite who would want to argue it's better than PS4 and every time MS try and equate the two they look desperate and evasive. Practically no one cares about specs anyway.

 

[avaya]

You'd have thought they'd have learnt their lesson and shut down these spec articles, it's free Sony PR at the moment.

 

[twobear]

Which is a shame because it really isn't. It may not be as powerful as the PS4 but it's still a nice system which will have plenty of beautiful looking next gen games.

It's bandwidth starved, fillrate starved, the eSRAM is overly complex and only partially addresses shortcomings and it's significantly weaker than the competition which is not exactly bleeding edge itself. Not sure how you can paint it as a 'nice system', it looks like a hodgepodge of compromises and half-measures with no clear goals (beyond 8GB RAM) and little thought put into future proofing.

 

[Amir0x]

It's bandwidth starved, fillrate starved, the eSRAM is overly complex and is only there to partially address shortcomings and it's significantly weaker than the competition which is not exactly bleeding edge itself. Not sure how you can paint it as a 'nice system', it looks like a hodgepodge of compromises and half-measures with no clear goals (beyond 8GB RAM) and little thought put into future proofing.

there was one clear goal. To be the multimedia set top box Microsoft always wanted for the living room. Too bad how they went about it though

 

[shinra-bansho]

It's bandwidth starved, fillrate starved, the eSRAM is overly complex and only partially addresses shortcomings and it's significantly weaker than the competition which is not exactly bleeding edge itself. Not sure how you can paint it as a 'nice system', it looks like a hodgepodge of compromises and half-measures with no clear goals (beyond 8GB RAM) and little thought put into future proofing.

The overarching goal is the same as it always has been for Microsoft: to try and control the living room screen, and stave off any threat should it come to supplant the PC (which it really never will.) It's a means to an end, and always has been.

Sony, as their hubris grew through the PS1 and PS2 era, also took upon this goal. But I think it's fallen by the wayside compared to simply being the best selling games machine.

 

[KingSunIsFree]

I think the simplest answer to this whole debate is xb1 was first a multimedia device and a gaming console second or at least that's the way they designed it. I think there were blind sided since feb and realized people still want a gaming console first and everything else secondary

 

[i-Lo]

It's bandwidth starved, fillrate starved, the eSRAM is overly complex and only partially addresses shortcomings and it's significantly weaker than the competition which is not exactly bleeding edge itself. Not sure how you can paint it as a 'nice system', it looks like a hodgepodge of compromises and half-measures with no clear goals (beyond 8GB RAM) and little thought put into future proofing.

It only looks that way when compared to PS4. On its own, the system is still quite capable. At this point, the conversation should just shift to games since most of what I see on GAF in defense of xbone and PS4's specs are cyclical.

 

[beast786]

there was one clear goal. To be the multimedia set top box Microsoft always wanted for the living room. Too bad how they went about it though

And kinect and DRM online.

When your orignal policies and hardware (kinect) were designed in balance and now you are reshuffling everything obviously it wont make sense,

XB1 is in no mans land. least powerful more expense and step behind in policies of ps4.

funny thing is the biggest feature people looking forward to XB1 is to follow again ps4 lead and make kinect inclusion a choice.

 

[nib95]

In this article DF is implying that Xbox One have higher bandwidth for GPGPU than PS4, but we know that Both have 30 GB/s for coherent memory access.

Leadbetter, not surprisingly has done what a lot of the supporters of Microsoft's console do, which is ignore Onion+ on the PS4. The unique set up on the PS4 is actually an advantageous customisation, not a negative.

This is from the last big thread.

X1 GPU:
1.18 TF GPU (12 CUs) for games
768 Shaders
48 Texture units
16 ROPS
2 ACE/ 16 queues

PS4 GPU:
1.84TF GPU ( 18 CUs) for games + 56%
1152 Shaders +50%
72 Texture units +50%
32 ROPS + 100%
8 ACE/64 queues +400%

Yea, good to have the the queue number confirmed. This comparison is always quite an eye opener.

 

[Entrecôte]

Here is real world demonstration of bandwidth limitations throttling graphics performance:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Iris-Graphics-5100.91977.0.html

Iris 5100, on paper double the EUs of HD 4400.

The least power-hungry ULV processors with a TDP of 15 Watts come with three different GPUs, ranging from the low-end variant HD Graphics (Haswell) to the HD Graphics 4400 and the HD Graphics 5000. The Iris Graphics 5100 used in the Core i7-4558U is closely related to the latter. Both sport 40 execution units (EUs), comparable clock speeds and - a major difference when compared to the Iris Pro - no dedicated eDRAM memory.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Asus-Zenbook-Infinity-UX301LA-Ultrabook.103027.0.html

The bandwidth-induced performance issues are even more pronounced in games. Again, the Iris Graphics 5100 is only 20 percent faster than the HD 5000 while now trailing the Iris Pro by more than 70 percent. The HD Graphics 4400 fares surprisingly well (barely falling behind) despite its inferior graphics prowess - another hint that the main problem might be located elsewhere.

So disappointingly, the much more expensive gpu unit gets negligible performance benefit over 4000-5000 series due to the architectural constraints.

 

[Clear]

See this is my issue with DF at the moment. Not the articles as such (although the title for the GPU one does look suspicious) but the ratio of XB1 to PS4 articles.

That's just Eurogamer all over though. Seriously why would you expect parity from a site that's had a long running platform specific videoblog "Outside Xbox", with no equivalent for any other platform?

Meanwhile the Sony focussed coverage tends to be on negative points - case in point being the (at least) 3 articles on issues relating to the PSN version of GTAV, and you get their lead news "reporter" Wesley Yin-Poole coming out with dubious claims like saying 360 has outsold PS3 4:1 in the UK.

 

[avaya]

It's bandwidth starved, fillrate starved, the eSRAM is overly complex and only partially addresses shortcomings and it's significantly weaker than the competition which is not exactly bleeding edge itself. Not sure how you can paint it as a 'nice system', it looks like a hodgepodge of compromises and half-measures with no clear goals (beyond 8GB RAM) and little thought put into future proofing.

People should really call a spade a spade. The PS4 is barely passable for late 2013, the Bone is in no way a 'nice system' hardware wise.

 

[CoG]

I think the simplest answer to this whole debate is xb1 was first a multimedia device and a gaming console second or at least that's the way they designed it. I think there were blind sided since feb and realized people still want a gaming console first and everything else secondary

Nobody wants a $500 set top box especially when you can get an Apple TV for $99, Roku for $50, and Chromecast for $35. Not to mention any multimedia feature worth a damn is behind a $50/year paywall. Xbox One will absolutely fail in the STB department and alienating gamers plus a $100 price delta over the PS4 is not going to help their game machine prospects much.

They got everything right with the Xbox 360 launch and everything wrong with the Xbox One launch. I am convinced that Microsoft is incapable of making successful products anymore.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

See this is my issue with DF at the moment. Not the articles as such (although the title for the GPU one does look suspicious) but the ratio of XB1 to PS4 articles.

In my view for DF to be credible there has to be at least a similar level of coverage for each, which just isn't the case. Now maybe MS are just opening up more (or feel they have to more) but DF should be reaching out to Sony to at least request similar deep dive interviews but it just feels like their attention is squarely focused on giving MS and XB1 lots of coverage at the moment.

This is not balanced.

LOL...ironic with all the talk of balance going on.

 

[nib95]

Lol, yea right. Just remember Leadbetter's own words, "evenly matched" when it's a 50% difference in gpu power. "Significant advantage" when it's a 10% cpu difference.

Acknowledging Sony's great specs my arse. He's been trying to underplay the performance differences and peddle Microsoft PR (mostly un-challeneged I might add) for months now. Really flushed DF's credibility down the toilet in many respects.

 

[i-Lo]

See this is my issue with DF at the moment. Not the articles as such (although the title for the GPU one does look suspicious) but the ratio of XB1 to PS4 articles.

In my view for DF to be credible there has to be at least a similar level of coverage for each, which just isn't the case. Now maybe MS are just opening up more (or feel they have to more) but DF should be reaching out to Sony to at least request similar deep dive interviews but it just feels like their attention is squarely focused on giving MS and XB1 lots of coverage at the moment.

This is not balanced.

It does make me wonder how they will deal with probable better ports of games on PS4 when they do head to head.

 

[gruenel]

If you guys want a laugh... misterxmedia updated his site today with some 10% spin and PS4 overheat FUD

 

[cyberheater]

It's bandwidth starved, fillrate starved, the eSRAM is overly complex and only partially addresses shortcomings and it's significantly weaker than the competition which is not exactly bleeding edge itself. Not sure how you can paint it as a 'nice system', it looks like a hodgepodge of compromises and half-measures with no clear goals (beyond 8GB RAM) and little thought put into future proofing.

You can shit on it as much as you like but the reality is still that it's a powerful next gen games machine that already has some wonderful looking games coming out for it; Ryse, Forza 5 and Dead Rising 3. And will continue to have beautiful looking games on it for it's entire generation.

 

[killatopak]

Oops.
Yeah, "each way".
Sry, my bad.

So total coherent bandwidth is actually 40GB/s? I though it was the same as Xbox One's 30GB/s

So everything really is better in the PS4 bar CPU.

If Sony uplocks the CPU to at least 1.8ghz... Oh my... The meltdown.

Edit:

They're different numbers...

XB1: 30GB/s shared between CPU coherent read/write and GPU coherent read.

PS4: 20GB/s for CPU coherent read/write + 10GB/s GPU coherent read + 10GB/s GPU coherent write

So it's not 40GB/s? They're the same after all. Sorry

Edit2: It is 40GB/s after all which is confirmed on the 4th page of the same thread. Sony really are better in everything. Good luck MS engineers.

 

[RedNumberFive]

If you guys want a laugh... misterxmedia updated his site today with some 10% spin and PS4 overheat FUD

Please don't encourage this asshat by giving him hits.

 

[PdotMichael]

Not sure anyone had a better understanding of their system than the techs who designed it.

Well... that's true that the Sony engineers know their shit.

 

[frizby]

Please don't encourage this asshat by giving him hits.

this

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Here is real world demonstration of bandwidth limitations throttling graphics performance:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Iris-Graphics-5100.91977.0.html

Iris 5100, on paper double the EUs of HD 4400.




http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Asus-Zenbook-Infinity-UX301LA-Ultrabook.103027.0.html



So disappointingly, the much more expensive gpu unit gets negligible performance benefit over 4000-5000 series due to the architectural constraints.

The thing that must be noted is that the eDRAM in Haswell is purely a hardware-controlled cache, whereas the ESRAM in X1 is a developer/software-controlled scratchpad. The developer overhead in X1's case to get efficiencies out of the ESRAM is daunting relative to the hardware-controlled eDRAM of Haswell.

The ESRAM in X1 is also there primarily to make up for a bandwidth deficit compared to the competition--not the other way around.

 

[GameAddict411]

If you guys want a laugh... misterxmedia updated his site today with some 10% spin and PS4 overheat FUD

i just love it when he does an interview with an "insider" when in reality he's the same person lol.

edit: look what i found:

Neogaf.com and n4g.com owned by Sony and non-Sony fans could do nothing other than ignore them

this is a title for one of his articles lmao!

 

[artist]

Not sure anyone had a better understanding of their system than the techs who designed it.

lol @ this edit.

And why does it sound familiar? Here;

the guys actually building the boxes are the only ones who know all the facts

 

[PdotMichael]

Is Digital Foundry saying that hardware doesn't mean what it has always meant? Also, that regardless of specs of the X1, X1 is not only more powerful than PS4 but its also more efficient?

More powerful, more efficient, easier to work with.
And the gap is way bigger than the PS3 <-> Xbox 360 gap was.

It's crazy that Microsoft is trying to playing the hardware card in the last weeks and months.

 

[walltowall]

See this is my issue with DF at the moment. Not the articles as such (although the title for the GPU one does look suspicious) but the ratio of XB1 to PS4 articles.

In my view for DF to be credible there has to be at least a similar level of coverage for each, which just isn't the case. Now maybe MS are just opening up more (or feel they have to more) but DF should be reaching out to Sony to at least request similar deep dive interviews but it just feels like their attention is squarely focused on giving MS and XB1 lots of coverage at the moment.

This is not balanced.

Isn't this because it makes for great discussion though. When do you ever see the front runner getting the most press after they have been established as such. The scrappy underdog story is always most compelling because it gives it's supporters hope and the frontrunner's supporters a chance to gloat.

 

[forrest]

I'm impresses how they are trying to sell the CPU upclock as big game changer. It's like I'm back in the 90s.

Xbox One Turbo Edition

 

[DrM]

Xbox One Turbo Edition

With special 'TURBO' voice command

 

[goonergaz]

You can shit on it as much as you like but the reality is still that it's a powerful next gen games machine that already has some wonderful looking games coming out for it; Ryse, Forza 5 and Dead Rising 3. And will continue to have beautiful looking games on it for it's entire generation.

But will surely shows the signs of limitations sooner than PS4?

 

[Skeff]

PC cards have to handle resolutions higher than 1080p. I Doubt many, if any, PS4 games will go higher.

Just to put the whole higher resolution thing into pure bullshit category in this case....

At higher resolutions it would take even higher bandwidth than at 1080p assuming the same BPP, so if you compare the PS4 GPU against 7850/7870 you'll find the ratio of ROP's and Bandwidth are for want of a better word better "balanced"

The only thing anyone ever says about this is, yes but GPU's in PC's go above 1080p, well yes they do, but they also require more bandwidth to do so, and yet these cards have a higher fill rate and lower bandwidth than PS4.

Due to their more limited bandwidths and higher pixel fill rates, It seems reasonably simple that it's not a straightforward more than 16 ROP's is only for higher than 1080p, as taking the same example Goosen used, these cards would be bandwidth starved in the exact same scenario, so why are they there? It's almost as if BPP is actually variable and the examples they used were purposefully chosen for a specific reason. I expect to see plenty of indie games running above 1080p on PS4.

 

[IcyEyes]

Every opinion counts and must be respected, but sometimes, the level of bias reachs the danger zone and Leadbetter, with a smile, is floating that way ...

Isn't this because it makes for great discussion though. When do you ever see the front runner getting the most press after they have been established as such. The scrappy underdog story is always most compelling because it gives it's supporters hope and the frontrunner's supporters a chance to gloat.

You are right Sir.

 

[RoboPlato]

These articles would be so great if every few questions they didn't try to downplay the PS4 and try to confuse people even more. It just seems like Microsoft is being very defensive instead of having confidence in their product. Have some pride and talk about your own design choices and how they will benefit your goals, stop trying to pretend that Sony made bad choices aiming for more power.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

More powerful, more efficient, easier to work with.
And the gap is way bigger than the PS3 <-> Xbox 360 gap was.

It's crazy that Microsoft is trying to playing the hardware card in the last weeks and months.

I think it's a last-ditch effort to try to regain some of the hardcore that they've lost with all the blunders over the past few months. They seem to have finally woken up and realized that early adopter word-of-mouth advertising sets the narrative for the entire course of the upcoming generation. Hell, it's what made X360 so successful last generation.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

I'm waiting for them to lock down someone at Sony who can speak on behalf of the PS4.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

Nobody wants a $500 set top box especially when you can get an Apple TV for $99, Roku for $50, and Chromecast for $35. Not to mention any multimedia feature worth a damn is behind a $50/year paywall. Xbox One will absolutely fail in the STB department and alienating gamers plus a $100 price delta over the PS4 is not going to help their game machine prospects much.

They got everything right with the Xbox 360 launch and everything wrong with the Xbox One launch. I am convinced that Microsoft is incapable of making successful products anymore.

What Microsoft and Sony need to do is find some multimedia features (other than triple A gaming) that those devices would have a hard time pulling off.

 

[TheRealTalker]

Please don't encourage this asshat by giving him hits.

Sorry I never knew about this guy so I ventured to his blog.... I just don't understand his blog posts :/
I just can't

 

[CoG]

CONCLUSION
When you break down the numbers, PS4 has provably more performance than Xbox One. Keep in mind that Microsoft has a track record of over promising and under delivering on technical performance. The truth is that both systems pack a lot of power for high definition games and entertainment.

 

[cyberheater]

But will surely shows the signs of limitations sooner than PS4?

Hi mate.

Well the thing is. Devs are still squeezing out more performance out of the 360 seven years on. We're just at the start of the next gen. The drivers will improve and so will the knowledge of the developers.
And as normal. The most talented devs with the best budgets will produce the best looking titles regardless of theoretical power.

 

[beast786]

It clearly same startegy they used with 360.

Major nelson did same type of piece at 360 launch
http://majornelson.com/2005/05/20/xbox-360-vs-ps3-part-1-of-4/

Now LB is doing the exact same thing at XB1 launch

 

[Skeff]

So total coherent bandwidth is actually 40GB/s? I though it was the same as Xbox One's 30GB/s

So everything really is better in the PS4 bar CPU.

If Sony uplocks the CPU to at least 1.8ghz... Oh my... The meltdown.

Edit:


So it's not 40GB/s? They're the same after all. Sorry

but but but but 3x....

we have 3X the coherent bandwidth for GPGPU at 30gb/sec which significantly improves our ability for the CPU to efficiently read data generated by the GPU.

www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=80951633

 

[IAmRandom31]

Hilarious

 

[killatopak]

From this article, I learned that the guy who approved Mark Cerny to lead the PS4 design was none other than Phil Harrison.



Yes, that Phil Harrison.

Agent Harrison to the rescue!

 

[mrlovepump]

Gotta love mrmediaxwhatever.

Problem is now we are getting to the point where we know enough to know he is 100% bonkers. Before it was only 95% sure he was bonkers.

I love the way all of a sudden he is on about mantle now is out there like he knew about it all along lol.

Anyone go to any of the shows and can debunk his ps4s are shells and are really PC's thing?

 

[RedNumberFive]

It clearly same startegy they used with 360.

Major nelson did same type of piece at 360 launch
http://majornelson.com/2005/05/20/xbox-360-vs-ps3-part-1-of-4/

Now LB is doing the exact same thing at XB1 launch

So they've outsourced their PR this time around?