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[Stallion Free]

Are there any examples of tessellation in either (not POM)?

It appears to be limited to character models and DF shows all 3 versions of Garrett matching up (with the PC version using tesselation on). I briefly looked for environment geometry differences with it turn off/on and I didn't see any. Kind of a bummer after Nixxes applied it to tons of geomentry in the PC version of Tomb Raider.

 

[Blimblim]

Our Xbox One videos are up, for the few who cares
http://www.gamersyde.com/news_xbox_one_thief_videos-15079_en.html

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Has anyone actually tweeted the devs about whether the PS4 version has AF?

 

[Poundis Rex]

The ESRAM is part of the reason why it's having a hard time doing 1080p.

No it isn't. I really wish that hearsay would stop.

 

[SneakyStephan]

It appears to be limited to character models and DF shows all 3 versions of Garrett matching up (with the PC version using tesselation on). I briefly looked for environment geometry differences with it turn off/on and I didn't see any. Kind of a bummer after Nixxes applied it to tons of geomentry in the PC version of Tomb Raider.

Yeah tomb raider looked really spectacular on pc geometry wise because of it, the only good implementation of tesselation I've seen so far

 

[Steroyd]

Also, if the PS4 version uses POM and (possibly) tesselation, how the hell would something like AF go missing, given its computationally marginal status compared to the aforementioned effects?

We don't know, because this isn't a first, there were calls at the start of the thread for some Leadbetter-esque secret sauce developer call up to get on the issue and ask questions... well so many pages later here we are.

 

[Zen]

I played that part of the game yesterday and can confirm that my PS4 version did NOT have this issue.

Does the PS4 version support play while downloading? I wouldn't put it past them to have used that option. Or maybe it happens with the disk version when the Hard drive is very full? Something?

 

[Hoje0308]

We don't know, because this isn't a first, there were calls at the start of the thread for some Leadbetter-esque secret sauce developer call up to get on the issue and ask questions... well so many pages later here we are.

Anyone have the Twitter accounts of devs involved? I'll gladly bother people for some answers.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Does the PS4 version support play while downloading? I wouldn't put it past them to have used that option. Or maybe it happens with the disk version when the Hard drive is very full? Something?

The scene with the man hanging is from chapter 3, so I'm not sure it's a playgo issue.

I played some earlier and didn't notice the issue either. I took a picture of the flags in chapter 4 and it wasn't there either. Will post the pic later on.

 

[StuBurns]

The scene with the man hanging is from chapter 3, so I'm not sure it's a playgo issue.

I played some earlier and didn't notice the issue either. I took a picture of the flags in chapter 4 and it wasn't there either. Will post the pic later on.

Maybe the guy had the save, maybe from playing a disc version, or from a publisher, or Leadbetter, etc, and he was downloading/installing while playing.

 

[Ocaso]

Also, if the PS4 version uses POM and (possibly) tesselation, how the hell would something like AF go missing, given its computationally marginal status compared to the aforementioned effects?I

Seriously, this is a more baffling question than why DF came to their conclusion. There must be SOME rational explanation.

 

[benny_a]

Seriously, this is a more baffling question than why DF came to their conclusion. There must be SOME rational explanation.

Just because something is computational demanding doesn't mean the end result is more impressive.

Thomas Morgan obviously believes that AF is more important than the resolution and POM advantage of the PS4 version. It's a preference.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Maybe the guy had the save, maybe from playing a disc version, or from a publisher, or Leadbetter, etc, and he was downloading/installing while playing.

Seems unlikely. From what I've played, there hasn't been any texture pop in and I've been playing since this morning and while it was installing via playgo.

For what it's worth, the part with the man hanging is a cut-scene...not sure if that matters.

 

[Beefy]

The game looks like crap anyways, no matter what console it is on. Glad I cancelled my pre-order after reading gaf.

 

[Hoje0308]

Just because something is computational demanding doesn't mean the end result is more impressive.

Thomas Morgan obviously believes that AF is more important than the resolution and POM advantage of the PS4 version. It's a preference.

That wasn't my question though. Why would a feature like AF that isn't resource heavy be eschewed, seemingly in favor of more demanding effects? Add in the higher resolution and it really does seem like a stunning omission. By DF's admission, it should be there.

I realize that, hence why the DF verdict isn't a mystery. The mystery is why AF isn't on the PS4 version when the computational cost should presumably be trivial and the results definitely are superior. Surely turning it on couldn't have dropped the framerate below the XO version, right? It happened in Strider as well, and that was the only difference between platforms, so there must be a reason were not privy to.

My first thought is that there's an SDK issue at hand, but we haven't seen this problem in other games. Is Strider also using UE3? If so, what other games on PS4 are using the same engine? I think Outlast does, but that's about all I can come up with.

 

[Ocaso]

Just because something is computational demanding doesn't mean the end result is more impressive.

Thomas Morgan obviously believes that AF is more important than the resolution and POM advantage of the PS4 version. It's a preference.

I realize that, hence why the DF verdict isn't a mystery. The mystery is why AF isn't on the PS4 version when the computational cost should presumably be trivial and the results definitely are superior. Surely turning it on couldn't have dropped the framerate below the XO version, right? It happened in Strider as well, and that was the only difference between platforms, so there must be a reason were not privy to.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

The game looks like crap anyways, no matter what console it is on. Glad I cancelled my pre-order after reading gaf.

I wouldn't say that, there are moments where it's pretty great visually. Character models are mostly well done and highly detailed too.

 

[benny_a]

I realize that, hence why the DF verdict isn't a mystery. The mystery is why AF isn't on the PS4 version when the computational cost should presumably be trivial and the results definitely are superior. Surely turning it on couldn't have dropped the framerate below the XO version, right? It happened in Strider as well, and that was the only difference between platforms, so there must be a reason were not privy to.

I misread your post, I thought you were confused why they choose the Xbone version over the PS4. My mistake.

I posted my guesses for that earlier: Maybe they are using LibGNMX and the AF is broken there, or the specific version of the PS4 SDK they used to compile it with has a bug, as TRE has AF.
But TRE was done by Nixxes which are very capable when porting games. My uneducated guess would be that they would use LibGNM directly because they are so boss. ;-)

 

[omonimo]

People are pulling bits and pieces from the video. If you take the whole video into consideration you see the frame rates are better on xbox most of the time during gameplay where as ps4 is better usually in the cutscenes . The AF issue ( not the texture streaming) has come up in another game as well.

Those two things are what make the xbone come out on top, but it's not saying that the xbone version does not have any problems. It clearly has problems as well it is just df decided the ps4s issues outweighed the xbone's issues.

Uh? What video exactly? Xbone drop regularly under 20 fps during the gameplay.

 

[Beefy]

I wouldn't say that, there are moments where it's pretty great visually. Character models are mostly well done and highly detailed too.

I was expecting more is all. Have you played it? Is the storyline any good?

 

[Jedi2016]

They also need to stop coming to a conclusion and naming a "winner". These articles are entirely for dick-waving the more powerful console, they've got nothing to do with making purchase decisions. Most of us aren't in the position of being able to choose which version of Thief to play, we're going to get it on [insert my console here]. These articles just help us justify these decisions.

So what DF needs to do is stick to only facts, and leave opinion out of it. PS4 does this part better, Xbox does this part better, here's the screens and videos, make up your own damn mind on which is "better".

 

[benny_a]

They also need to stop coming to a conclusion and naming a "winner". These articles are entirely for dick-waving the more powerful console, they've got nothing to do with making purchase decisions. Most of us aren't in the position of being able to choose which version of Thief to play, we're going to get it on [insert my console here]. These articles just help us justify these decisions.

I used DF a lot last generation to decide which version of a game I would purchase.

Of course that still didn't necessitate them crowning a victor, as I can read.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I was expecting more is all. Have you played it? Is the storyline any good?

I've played up to chapter 4 and the story us mostly forgettable so far. I'm playing more for the atmosphere than to see how the story unfolds and that's unlikely to change based on the story so far.

As for expecting more, it's cross gen and that really holds it back. Both in scope and visuals. saying that, there are moments where it does impress visually.

 

[Hoje0308]

I misread your post, I thought you were confused why they choose the Xbone version over the PS4. My mistake.

I posted my guesses for that earlier: Maybe they are using LibGNMX and the AF is broken there, or the specific version of the PS4 SDK they used to compile it with has a bug, as TRE has AF.
But TRE was done by Nixxes which are very capable when porting games. My uneducated guess would be that they would use LibGNM directly because they are so boss. ;-)

Not trying to derail here, but I have no idea what any of that is. My limit of technical understanding is far below what a fair number of people on Gaf display. If it isn't too much trouble, could you explain the basics? If that's even possible, I mean. I know not every concept can be properly explained with a pithy statement.

 

[omonimo]

They also need to stop coming to a conclusion and naming a "winner". These articles are entirely for dick-waving the more powerful console, they've got nothing to do with making purchase decisions. Most of us aren't in the position of being able to choose which version of Thief to play, we're going to get it on [insert my console here]. These articles just help us justify these decisions.

So what DF needs to do is stick to only facts, and leave opinion out of it. PS4 does this part better, Xbox does this part better, here's the screens and videos, make up your own damn mind on which is "better".

I think this from the ps360 comparison. There is no reason to declare a winner, just make a tech comparison. Never understond what mean declare "& the winner is" it's a just a fanboy service. Especially when you place AF over everything. It's really subjective, not tech wise

 

[blastprocessor]

Our Xbox One videos are up, for the few who cares
http://www.gamersyde.com/news_xbox_one_thief_videos-15079_en.html

Just watched Gameplay #1 - PS4. Great video quality BTW, just blows away youtube. The game actually looks smooth but seriously last gen. Visually unimpressive.

 

[benny_a]

Not trying to derail here, but I have no idea what any of that is. My limit of technical understanding is far below what a fair number of people on Gaf display. If it isn't too much trouble, could you explain the basics? If that's even possible, I mean. I know not every concept can be properly explained with a pithy statement.

LibGNM is the graphics API for the PS4. LibGNMX is the DirectX-style wrapper for the native graphics API on PS4.
The wrapper is used by developers that only bother with changing their API interface a little bit as opposed to writing it directly against the native API.

It's conceivable to me that the wrapper has a bug that drops the AF instruction. It's one more indirection that can house an issue.

It's just baseless (or as much base as my above post) speculation though.

 

[Waaghals]

No it isn't. I really wish that hearsay would stop.

It isn't?

Because I was under the impression that most deferred renders @ 1080p needed more space than 32mb.

 

[Hoje0308]

LibGNM is the graphics API for the PS4. LibGNMX is the DirectX-style wrapper for the native graphics API on PS4.
The wrapper is used by developers that only bother with changing their API interface a little bit as opposed to writing it directly against the native API.

It's conceivable to me that the wrapper has a bug that drops the AF instruction. It's one more indirection that can house an issue.

It's just baseless (or as much base as my above post) speculation though.

Thanks for the explanation. That does make sense, since Tomb Raider doesn't exhibit the same issue. Didn't that run the Crystal Engine though? Would Thief running UE3 fit the narrative of a bug in the wrapper better?

 

[omonimo]

No it isn't. I really wish that hearsay would stop.

Care to explain? I don't think it's hearsay to say ESRAM is one of the main reason because xbone can't handle 1080p how ps4.

 

[jryi]

I don't think it's hearsay to say ESRAM is one of the main reason because xbone can't handle 1080p how ps4.

DDR3 is the reason. ESRAM is a way (albeit imperfect) to mitigate the restrictions.

 

[sportz103]

It isn't?

Because I was under the impression that most deferred renders @ 1080p needed more space than 32mb.

1 render target at 1080p and 32-bit color depth is just under 8MB. So 4 would fit in the ESRAM.

 

[benny_a]

1 render target at 1080p and 32-bit color depth is just under 8MB. So 4 would fit in the ESRAM.

Frostbite 3 has 4 render targets. It's just below 32MB for just the MRTs.

There are other engines that have a bigger than 32MB for MRTs at 720p.

DDR3 is the reason. ESRAM is a way (albeit imperfect) to mitigate the restrictions.

I think that is implied when eSRAM is said. In the end one can just say the architecture is weaker and encompass all the design choices for the Xbone.

 

[Hoje0308]

No it isn't. I really wish that hearsay would stop.

Not hearsay. The amount of ESRAM is too small for a 1080P buffer while using deferred rendering. Unless of course you forgo dynamic effects in favor of the baked variety, a la Forza 5.

 

[H6rdc0re]

DDR3 is the reason. ESRAM is a way (albeit imperfect) to mitigate the restrictions.

No it's not the RAM. Sure a memory bottleneck will limit performance but the reason why games run on a lower resolution, framerate, effects or a combination of the three is the lack of GPU grunt.

 

[StuBurns]

Isn't it that you can't uncouple the G-buffer so it has to be on the eSRAM too? A lot of buffers you could leave on the DDR3.

 

[omonimo]

DDR3 is the reason. ESRAM is a way (albeit imperfect) to mitigate the restrictions.

wat? So pc can't handle 1080p, damn.

 

[Waaghals]

1 render target at 1080p and 32-bit color depth is just under 8MB. So 4 would fit in the ESRAM.

Not in a deferred render as far as I understand. There the size swells to somewhere in the high forties.

Most modern game engines are deferred renders.

 

[benny_a]

wat? So pc can't handle 1080p, damn.

Every modern GPU uses GDDR5 for their VRAM.

If I remember correctly, Shadow Fall was in the forties and the time of their reveal postmortem.

At the time of the February demo their render targets were 800MB. ;-)

 

[omonimo]

Every modern GPU uses GDDR5 for their VRAM.

I was sacarstic, but pc still use DDR3 for the cpu.

 

[Hoje0308]

Not in a deferred render as far as I understand. There the size swells to somewhere in the high forties.

Most modern game engines are deferred renders.

If I remember correctly, Shadow Fall was in the forties *at* the time of their reveal postmortem.

 

[Waaghals]

If I remember correctly, Shadow Fall was in the forties and the time of their reveal postmortem.

That's where I got it from. I am also aware that the size can increase dramatically if you add MSAA.



And now I'm gonna get google viagra ads everywhere.

 

[Skeff]

No it's not the RAM. Sure a memory bottleneck will limit performance but the reason why games run on a lower resolution, framerate, effects or a combination of the three is the lack of GPU grunt.

Actually the main reason for lower res is that the esram requires the buffers to be tiled between esram and ddr3 causing the ddr3 to use valuable bandwidth which is required for other tasks such as textures.

The xb1 is balanced around a lower Target resolution than the ps4, dropping an xb1 game from 1080->900p frees up more resources than if the same step was taken on ps4, due to the lack of a tiling requirement and 90% more fillrate.

 

[Jedi2016]

I used DF a lot last generation to decide which version of a game I would purchase.

Of course that still didn't necessitate them crowning a victor, as I can read.

The only one I'll even conceivably be doing the same thing for in the foreseeable future is The Witcher 3. Mostly because of the recent rumors that the game's only 900p on PS4. I may want to see the comparisons and analysis before I decide whether to get it on PC or PS4 (Honestly, I'm not sure how well my PC will be able to push the game).

But, like you said, I don't need their opinion, I can look at the article and decide for myself, based on what I want out of the game.

 

[Skeff]

1 render target at 1080p and 32-bit color depth is just under 8MB. So 4 would fit in the ESRAM.

In a forward renderer with no AA....

 

[Hoje0308]

That's where I got it from. I am also aware that the size can increase dramatically if you add MSAA.



And now I'm gonna get google viagra ads everywhere.

Hahaha!

Spoiler

....What?

 

[Prelude.]

No it's not the RAM. Sure a memory bottleneck will limit performance but the reason why games run on a lower resolution, framerate, effects or a combination of the three is the lack of GPU grunt.

The RAM is the "cause" because everything had to be gimped to work around it. They went with DDR3->they had to use eSRAM->they had less space on the APU for the GPU.

 

[H6rdc0re]

Actually the main reason for lower res is that the esram requires the buffers to be tiled between esram and ddr3 causing the ddr3 to use valuable bandwidth which is required for other tasks such as textures.

The xb1 is balanced around a lower Target resolution than the ps4, dropping an xb1 game from 1080->900p frees up more resources than if the same step was taken on ps4, due to the lack of a tiling requirement and 90% more fillrate.

No it's not you could run games in 4K resolutions on both PS4 and Xbox One if you wanted to but games would need to be less complex. The biggest reason why games run and look worse on the Xbox One is because it has less arithmetic and fillrate than the PS4. So when a game is running 1080p @30fps and pushing the hardware on the PS4 somethings got to give on the Xbox One. Same reason why you can run games better and with more details on a GTX780TI compared to a HD7970. Bandwidth plays a factor but is not the deciding factor.

 

[TyrantII]

No it isn't. I really wish that hearsay would stop.

Oh you.

Technically its the reason on deferred engines. The rest of them the limiting issue is the DDR3 bus bottleneck.

 

[Skeff]

No it's not you could run games in 4K resolutions on both PS4 and Xbox One if you wanted to but games would need to be less complex. The biggest reason why games run and look worse on the Xbox One is because it has less arithmetic and fillrate than the PS4. So when a game is running 1080p @30fps and pushing the hardware on the PS4 somethings got to give on the Xbox One. Same reason why you can run games better and with more details on a GTX780TI compared to a GTX770. Bandwidth plays a factor but is not the deciding factor.

I suggest you reread my second paragraph, both consoles can run at any resolution, but due to the esram size, using higher resolutions exponentially increase the cutbacks needed.

Your not actually disagreeing with my point here, your saying cutbacks need to be made and I'm saying why resolution is the first to go.