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[AdanVC]

This is the kinda shit that makes video games less fun.

THIS.
Seriously the point of this article from DF is just... silly. I guess they need the typical click-bait article on their websites so they do this. All the reviewers stated that this game runs perfectly smooth 99.9998% of the time, especially during online matches and I'm super glad Nintendo decided to focus on bring us excellent/polished/smooth gameplay performance rather than Anti Aliasing and other not so crucial effects that just kill the performance just so that the screenshots can look a little bit prettier...

 

[Sickbean]

What a shitty defense.

"Who cares the Wii did 480p, because certain PS3/360 titles had frame rate drops, despite looking massively better as a whole". I accept the Wii U for what it is but please don't embellish it.

I also thought this was funny.

It looks like bloom/emissive material/specular power. Which can be done on PS3/360 and even Vita.
It's not even the good kind either.

You really don't have a clue what you're talking about do you?

 

[Interceptor]

I angry with DF. Why? Because now i can see the stutter and can´t unsee it. Thx Dark.

 

[jett]

Weird, unfortunate bug, personally I can't really tell the duplicate frames in the webm posted, though. I think I'm just fairly forgiving of judder, even when I do notice it, I suffered through Arkham City on the PC when it was a judder fest on release. Compared to that the bug in MK8 is miniscule. I don't see it getting patched though, Nintendo doesn't strike me as the company that would bother to fix something like that.

 

[JordanN]

You really don't have a clue what you're talking about do you?

Have at me dude. I've seen better [looking] video games so I don't get what I'm missing. I also find the resolution claim stupid.

 

[EatChildren]

I feel that moving forward it would be best for everyone if we treated entering technical discussion/analysis threads to complain about the merits of technical discussion/analysis the same way we treat posts complaining that "sales don't matter" in threads explicitly about sales. That is to say such posts are ground for an immediate ban.

With it being specifically related to CPU players it's more likely they are using the 64th frame to update the AI rather than everything else.

So not a bug to be fixed, more a cheat to ensure the game runs at effectively full frame rate.

The AI is being updated 1/64 frames rather than every frame, probably because it was taking too long and causing a drop to 30fps.

You're probably right.

 

[GRW810]

So, you do know jack shit, you don't see jack shit, you probably weren't even able to tell if the game ran at 25FPS but you know ONE thing for sure: It's a MINOR issue. It's not just something you don't notice because your perception is sub par or you are just used to shit, no. It's not you. It's the OTHERS whose fault that is, because it's minor!!!

Great logic and stuff. Go on.

Holy shit Mr Angry man! Three exclamation marks and curse words to emphasise your fury. I feel well and truly beaten down by you, sir. How dare framerates not be an issue for me.

Move along.

 

[Xun]

Here is a terrifically bad image made by yours truly to visually illustrate what Digital Foundry appear to be describing.

The top image is locked 60fps. Red/blue indicating new frames. In this instance we see sixty new frames are rendered in consistent sequence for each of the two seconds.
Middle image is locked 30fps. Red/blue again indicating new frames, same consistency, but as you can see there's only half the data by comparison.
It doesn't matter if the game is a different number to these. It could be 40fps, 50fps, 59fps, 43fps, whatever. The frame count fits into each second.

The last image is Mario Kart 8. Based on Digital Foundry's observation the 64th frame is a repeat of the previous frame. This is not technically 59fps. 59fps would be like the top two images: new alternating frames throughout the time period. This is not true for Mario Kart 8. Look at the start of the second bar, and you can see two red frames next to each other. That's what's happening. The scene is refreshing sixty times per second each time, but the 64th frame in each sequence is, for some reason, a double up. Not just a drop in frame rate, but a repeated frame.

This is what we call stutter/judder and can be quite annoying for some people. It's also unusual for a game that seems to otherwise render a full 60 individual frames in a second. So yeah, I guess it's a technical bug.



Seems to be, and yes it should be fixable.

It doesn't bother me too much, but hopefully it can be fixed.

If not? I doubt it'll take too much away from the game for me.

 

[JetSetRadio]

Thank you for this.

There's no magic here. A game with a good art direction that shows technical proficiency can look good despite some flaws. 720p doesn't instantly render a game ugly and in this case, the lack of AA is barely noticeable in motion for most people, just as very few people notice this judder.

But they must be using some effects or tricks to make it look that good?

 

[DECK'ARD]

THIS.
Seriously the point of this article from DF is just... silly. I guess they need the typical click-bait article on their websites so they do this. All the reviewers stated that this game runs perfectly smooth 99.9998% of the time, especially during online matches and I'm super glad Nintendo decided to focus on bring us excellent/polished/smooth gameplay performance rather than Anti Aliasing and other not so crucial effects that just kill the performance just so that the screenshots can look a little bit prettier...

No, this attitude is silly.

The whole point of DF is to be anal about these things, it doesn't meant it has to bother you or cancel out everything else about a game. It's a technical analysis, doing exactly what it says on the tin and some people find that interesting.

Some people use it to try and score points but that's just the flip side of those who get too defensive about a company or game.

 

[VanWinkle]

Great tech analysis, but it's unfortunate they couldn't glean more from the tech features in the game from the devs like they are able to for a lot of games.

Really strange about the frame rate phenomenon. Weird. I didn't notice it in my brief time at Gamestop but we'll see upon further inspection. I definitely noticed the 720 and lack of AA, which hindered image quality greatly. So unfortunate.

Also, some of the reactions in this thread are really embarrassing. Clearly from people who never read these things at DF.

 

[dark10x]

Have at me dude. I've seen better [looking] video games so I don't get what I'm missing. I also find the resolution claim stupid.

If one realistically expected 1080p and received 720p, it would be disappointing, but when you've expected 720p all along it's not a disappointment. You wouldn't be disappointed as you never expected it in the first place. If it were 1080p it would be a surprise.

It's not excusing the hardware.

 

[C.Olimar788]

Split-screen, even with four players, manages to retain all of the detail visible in single-player. Even object pop-in remains the same between different modes.

Oooh, now that's good to hear. I thought it was confirmed that playing with more than two players downgraded some of the visuals, but according to Digital Foundry that isn't the case at all.

It would be nice it Nintendo went ahead and patched that weird repeated frame, but I sincerely doubt I'll even be able to notice it. So... good info to know, but not really a big deal at all.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

What a shitty defense.

"Who cares the Wii did 480p, because certain PS3/360 titles had frame rate drops, despite looking massively better as a whole". I accept the Wii U for what it is but please don't embellish it.

I also thought this was funny.

It looks like bloom/emissive material/specular power. Which can be done on PS3/360 and even Vita.
It's not even the good kind either.

Dat tag tho..

 

[PotionBleue]

dark10x?

This is what I was about to ask. Does it happen online with 10 human and 2 AI?

 

[Ridley327]

Weird, unfortunate bug, personally I can't really tell the duplicate frames in the webm posted, though. I think I'm just fairly forgiving of judder, even when I do notice it, I suffered through Arkham City on the PC when it was a judder fest on release. Compared to that the bug in MK8 is miniscule. I don't see it getting patched though, Nintendo doesn't strike me as the company that would bother to fix something like that.

They fixed some of the easily duplicated framerate issues in Pikmin 3, and that certainly didn't have the marketing push that this game does. Hell, no one saw the Pro Controller patch for NSMBU coming, either.

They're not quite as paleolithic in some aspects of online connectivity as others.

 

[Vanillalite]

Judder personally didn't bother me in the quick time I spent on Thursday trying th demo at Gamestop.

That being said it was readily apparent that the game lacked AA. I don't mind 720p for a resolution, but the lack of AA in a lot of titles is disappointing. Would really help clean up the image quality.

 

[dark10x]

dark10x?

It happens with any and all AI opponents enabled. The number doesn't make a difference, it seems. If AI racers are present, you'll encounter stuttering.

 

[The Boat]

But they must be using some effects or tricks to make it look that good?

Certainly, but I'm not the one to be able to tell what it is

 

[JordanN]

If one realistically expected 1080p and received 720p, it would be disappointing, but when you've expected 720p all along it's not a disappointment. You wouldn't be disappointed as you never expected it in the first place. If it were 1080p it would be a surprise.

It's not excusing the hardware.

They said "this can hardly be considered a disappointment especially when other developers are struggling to hit 1080p consistently on more powerful hardware." which I think is just a weak jab. Why mention other developers at all especially in that context?
Just leave it be it's 720p and that's it.

 

[boredandlazy]

I obviously didn't read the entire thread, but I shouldn't have to. I'm just not buying the basis of Digital Foundry's argument here. I think what's more likely to be the case is that this is evidence of how insanely flawed Digital Foundry's method of analysis can truly be. We appear to have a situation where their tools or methods of analysis are telling them one thing, and then they're desperately trying to seek ways to rationalize the data they're getting by exaggerating the perceived impact, despite the fact that it appears the game in action isn't supporting what they're suggesting.

"Notice how the frame-rate inconsistencies manifest during gameplay. This issue is difficult to observe in a 30fps video but quite noticeable during actual gameplay"

They tell us that we should notice how frame-rate inconsistencies manifest during gameplay based on the video they've provided, and then immediately afterwards tell us how difficult to observe the issue is in a 30fps video. So, which is it? The video either proves on some level what they're saying to be true, or it doesn't. Could it be the only thing from that video that even remotely comes close to proving any of the claims they're making is that framerate number that they themselves provide in the upper left hand part of the screen? Forgive me, but it sounds like they've thought up some bs to defend the integrity of their analysis. If it's truly as noticeable as they say, why not go the extra mile and provide us a proper 60fps video that would prove how very noticeable this is? Because, really, with the exception of their own number that they provide in the upper left portion of this video, nothing in the video supports their claim as far as I can see.

I've always believed to a degree that Digital Foundry's framerate tests sometimes felt as if they were questionable or outright flawed in terms of the data they gave us, and how they then claimed that data directly translates to the actual user experience, and I think this article strongly supports that belief. I may very well notice what they claim when I see this game for myself - and I will considering I bought a copy for my sister in law, which is visiting me for a week starting June - but until I see that for myself, I'm calling bogus on their claims as to how noticeable this supposedly is during actual gameplay.

Dude, you thought Dead Rising was acceptable. You'll be fine.

 

[panama chief]

No, this attitude is silly.

The whole point of DF is to be anal about these things, it doesn't meant it has to bother you or cancel out everything else about a game. It's a technical analysis, doing exactly what it says on the tin and some people find that interesting.

Some people use it to try and score points but that's just the flip side of those who get too defensive about a company or game.

i agree. this isnt a score or a 'buy it/dont buy it' review. this a technical analysis. people say DF is being nit picky....nit picky with what? they are giving you DATA(not opinion)...how you perceive that data is up to you.

 

[dark10x]

They said "this can hardly be considered a disappointment especially when other developers are struggling to hit 1080p consistently on more powerful hardware." which I think is just a weak jab. Why mention other developers at all especially in that context?

Resolution has been a huge issue as of late and it highlights the fact that one really shouldn't expect anything above 720p out of the Wii U (in most cases).

 

[Gestault]

How is this any better than just regular 30fps?

The underlying game simulation is apparently refreshed at the full 60 fps. The hud reflecting that is interesting, but not dramatically so. It's a clever workaround where for any individual player the appearance won't be any better than 30 fps, but presumably there's some fluidity in the responsiveness that's being retained.

 

[LittleJohnny]

More like marrying a mediocre looking woman, the game hardly looks impressive and the jaggies are horrible

The game does look great in motion. But that's what DF does, it puts games under a microscope for people who are into this kind of stuff, doesn't change anything about MK8, the game still looks as great as it did since the first time it was unveiled, and if learning this stuff is a turn off, then that person should probably stay away from these analysis'.

MK8 is a huge upgrade from previous iterations, that's all that matters, there's no point in comparing to what it could look like on PS4/XBO, having said that, even a PS4 version wouldn't look good enough when compared to the best a high end PC could do, there's always something potentially better out there. Wii U may not be up to par with current gen visually, but it still is a major upgrade compared to the Wii, which means Nintendo fans will get a generational leap in visuals regardless if it matches PS4/XBO. One thing is for sure, the game is incredibly visually appealing and runs buttery smooth...oh and it's fun and has great reviews, that's really what we should be focused on as gamers, and yes I understand we want better visuals, but MK8 is doing just that compared to last gen. Its win win for MK8 fans.

 

[Ty4on]

With it being specifically related to CPU players it's more likely they are using the 64th frame to update the AI rather than everything else.

So not a bug to be fixed, more a cheat to ensure the game runs at effectively full frame rate.

The AI is being updated 1/64 frames rather than every frame, probably because it was taking too long and causing a drop to 30fps.

This is why I'd love to learn what the pipeline looks like. Maybe the AI could be studied to see what happens with it when the game stutters.

I'm no programmer, but isn't this kind of locked timing rare nowadays?

 

[AdanVC]

No, this attitude is silly.

The whole point of DF is to be anal about these things, it doesn't meant it has to bother you or cancel out everything else about a game. It's a technical analysis, doing exactly what it says on the tin and some people find that interesting.

Some people use it to try and score points but that's just the flip side of those who get too defensive about a company or game.

Yeah I think you're right. At the end of the day, they are just making a technical analysis. Something they do with pretty much all big games released this days. Something we would probably see A LOT the upcoming weeks with Watch_Dogs for example. I'm just glad this minuscule issue in frame rate with MK8 is pretty much imperceptible.

 

[Grokbu]

Here is a terrifically bad image made by yours truly to visually illustrate what Digital Foundry appear to be describing.

The top image is locked 60fps. Red/blue indicating new frames. In this instance we see sixty new frames are rendered in consistent sequence for each of the two seconds.
Middle image is locked 30fps. Red/blue again indicating new frames, same consistency, but as you can see there's only half the data by comparison.
It doesn't matter if the game is a different number to these. It could be 40fps, 50fps, 59fps, 43fps, whatever. The frame count fits into each second.

The last image is Mario Kart 8. Based on Digital Foundry's observation the 64th frame is a repeat of the previous frame. This is not technically 59fps. 59fps would be like the top two images: new alternating frames throughout the time period. This is not true for Mario Kart 8. Look at the start of the second bar, and you can see two red frames next to each other. That's what's happening. The scene is refreshing sixty times per second each time, but the 64th frame in each sequence is, for some reason, a double up. Not just a drop in frame rate, but a repeated frame.

This is what we call stutter/judder and can be quite annoying for some people. It's also unusual for a game that seems to otherwise render a full 60 individual frames in a second. So yeah, I guess it's a technical bug.

Thanks for the clarification.

When seeing this, I started thinking. What happens when a display is running at 60 HZ and shows a game that runs at 59fps? Will there be a doubled frame there as well?

Edit: Maybe I am going a bit too off-topic with this?

 

[Kriken]

A little disappointing to see. It really won't bother me too much, but I can understand why it will bother others and I hope Nintendo is capable of patching this.

 

[Paskil]

Nintendo defense force out in full strength today. The tone of this article is almost slavish in its worship of Nintendo. I'm excited to play this game, at some point in the future. Mario Kart has always been an awesome and enjoyable series. All of that said, people bitching about the nitpicking are obviously missing the point

Spoiler

either intentionally or unintentionally

of these DF articles. If they didn't post the nitpick stuff in these assessments, how would anyone that does notice this stuff take them as a credible outlet for critiquing the technical aspects of games?

I am glad that am not overly sensitive to frame and tearing issues. I will notice them occasionally, but maybe playing so much N64 in my teens prepped me for technical issues in later years.

 

[Ty4on]

Thanks for the clarification.

When seeing this, I started thinking. I am quite bad at how this works. What happens when a display is running at 60 HZ and shows a game that runs at 59fps? Will there be a doubled frame there as well?

Edit: Maybe I am going a bit too off-topic with this?

Yup. Either that or a torn frame. That is why PC gamers who play fast games play without vsync because it can stutter. It's why variable sync monitors (gsync) is such a big deal and why a 120hz monitor can make a 40-50fps game look smoother.

 

[Synth]

THIS.
Seriously the point of this article from DF is just... silly. I guess they need the typical click-bait article on their websites so they do this. All the reviewers stated that this game runs perfectly smooth 99.9998% of the time, especially during online matches and I'm super glad Nintendo decided to focus on bring us excellent/polished/smooth gameplay performance rather than Anti Aliasing and other not so crucial effects that just kill the performance just so that the screenshots can look a little bit prettier...

And Digital Foundry claim is runs perfectly smooth 98.4375% of the time. Is there something wrong with them stating this?

 

[Night Angel]

This is the kinda shit that makes video games less fun.

These are the kinda threads you shouldn't fucking click.

That being said, the game looks great. Hopefully this issue is a bug and not what has been suggested earlier (AI update frame).

 

[Teletraan1]

1 fps now, 2 fps next year.

Nintendo is slowly moving to 30fps.

Nintendo has a huge warchest of FPS. They can survive like this for 29 more years.

 

[Grokbu]

Yup. Either that or a torn frame. That is why PC gamers who play fast games play without vsync because it can stutter.

Oh, so that is tearing? Is this because sort of part of the screen shows the old frame and the rest of the screen shows the new frame?

Edit:

It's why variable sync monitors (gsync) is such a big deal and why a 120hz monitor can make a 40-50fps game look smoother.

Ah, alright. Thanks!

 

[Fourth Storm]

I thought it was a fair analysis and a very positive write up overall. Smh at the oversensitive Nintendo fans who can't handle the facts.

 

[Dash Kappei]

Sorry meant to edit and dp

 

[memecomplex]

It's probably similar to the stutter I used to get in BF4 in 1080p running at 59.97 when my display is running at 60hz. It's quite annoying.

 

[phanphare]

Nintendo has a huge warchest of FPS. They can survive like this for 29 more years.

lol

59/60

 

[10k]

If this is just a technical bug I wonder if Nintendo will patch it eventually? They take their bugs seriously.

 

[VanWinkle]

I thought it was a fair analysis and a very positive write up overall. Smh at the oversensitive Nintendo fans who can't handle the facts.

They honestly probably aren't used to DF articles like the rest of us are.

 

[Davey Cakes]

It's a positive thing to point out a flaw like this, as minor (or major, subjectively) it may be.

Perhaps if it is patchable, DF's breakdown will expedite Nintendo's action to patch the game.

If not, hopefully it won't detract from the experience too much.

 

[Ridley327]

If this is just a technical bug I wonder if Nintendo will patch it eventually? They take their bugs seriously.

Unless you're someone who got hit with the game-killer in Metroid: Other M, that is!

 

[blu]

Periodical fps stutter on an otherwise 60fps output is extremely noticeable (and distracting) to me. Granted, I've watched only a single 60fps footage of the game (thanks Blim!), but noticed no such issue. If it's there, though, I do hope nintendo patch that ASAP.

 

[cheesekao]

Is this 59 fps thing similar to that problem with COD Ghosts for the PS4 where there was stuttering because it ran at more than 60 fps? I know it's not exactly the same but that's the best example I could think of.

 

[Naminator]

why are people continually streaming into the thread to embarrass themselves

I think because Mario Kart 8 was supposed to be one of the last WiiU saviors.

So we can't have any criticism of it, not even the slightest bit.

 

[Gestault]

THIS.
Seriously the point of this article from DF is just... silly. I guess they need the typical click-bait article on their websites so they do this. All the reviewers stated that this game runs perfectly smooth 99.9998% of the time, especially during online matches and I'm super glad Nintendo decided to focus on bring us excellent/polished/smooth gameplay performance rather than Anti Aliasing and other not so crucial effects that just kill the performance just so that the screenshots can look a little bit prettier...

They state accurate, substantiated facts, in the context of high regard for the game, and highlight how it doesn't influence gameplay except in rare moments. This is hardly tactless harping. Their whole value is going over this stuff with a fine-toothed comb. This isn't anything close to clickbait.

 

[DECK'ARD]

If this is just a technical bug I wonder if Nintendo will patch it eventually? They take their bugs seriously.

It doesn't look like a bug, just a cheat for how they are doing the CPU players. Allocating 1 frame every 64 for all the AI, rather than doing it every frame and causing a drop to 30fps.

Without any CPU players it isn't there, because they don't need the time of the duplicate frame to do the AI.

 

[Clockwork5]

We need a 59fps vs 60fps webm so people can call me names for not being able to tell the difference.

 

[IAmRandom31]

I'm fine with DF being anal, that is their job, but to say 60-59 change is noticeable is laughable.