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Does anyone seriously believe the Todd Howard meme?

T

TheVoidDragon

Member
Pretty much every time he says something about a game, some variation of "Don't believe his lies!" appears. I'm wondering if anyone seriously thinks he has at any point not been truthful about something that has appeared in a Bethesda game. The most common 'lies' people claim he's said are:

1. Skyrim has infinite quests
2. Fallout 3 has over 200 endings
3. Radiant AI/it's not scripted

Those things are 100% true. Skyrim has no limit to the amount of quests you can do. Fallout 3 has over 200 ending permutations. The Oblivion NPCs have 'lives' that aren't just them carrying out a scripted thing at a specific time. How could anyone really have expected anything other than how they are in the game?

Some of his quotes from the time:

Howard told Wired.com in a phone interview Monday that the game will feature a never-ending stream of procedurally generated content, giving players an infinite number of things to do.

...
The game’s Radiant quest system randomly generates new tasks based on your progress in the game. An innkeeper might ask you to hunt for bandits in a place you haven’t found yet, or an aspiring alchemist could request that you collect 10 undiscovered flowers for his work.
Click to expand...

The ending is kind of cinematic, that’s dynamic based on the things you’ve done.

When we started, it was kind of fuzzy, it was like “well there’s like 9 maybe 12″ and we started adding things to it. So if you had done this or not this, you’d get this other tweak to the ending. And we kept doing that. And you know even just two weeks ago someone had this idea, “Oh we should add this idea to the ending” (sorry I’m not going to spoil what that is). And I said, “oh that’s a genius idea, we have to do that.” But then it became, “oh, but there’s four versions of that.” So i was like, “okay there’s like four different versions of that part,” and that multiplies by, at the time we were at about 60 endings…so now there’s four versions of that, so now there are around 240 versions.”
Click to expand...

From what i've seen all the things he's said have been true. It doesn't even seem like it's a case of "We'll he exaggerates everything!" which i've seen some people say before. To me it looks like he says something, people take it out of context, interpret it in some wild and crazy way that there's basically no real chance of, then when their assumption is wrong claim he lied. E.g. "There isn't an infinite amount of different unique quests in Skyrim, so he lied!" despite nothing even hinting it would be anything other than just no end to the number of them you could do and that's the most logical assumption.

Cut features don't count obviously, like how there was a mention of properly affecting the Skyrim economy.

So, does anyone really believe it or is it just an unfunny meme? If anyone does believe it, why?
 
W

Warxard

Banned
Yeah, I do. Especially regarding Fallout.

Godd Howard got the people in a vicegrip

Shame on you if you genuinely believe Fallout 3 has over 200 endings
 
C

Coffee Dog

Banned
Infinite quests (that are all boring) and hundreds of ending permutations (that are all similar) are generally not viewed as good things, rather they seem like monkey paw style wishes that turned out horribly wrong.
 
T

TheVoidDragon

Member
Coffee Dog said:
Infinite quests (that are all boring) and hundreds of ending permutations (that are all similar) are generally not viewed as good things, rather they seem like monkey paw style wishes that turned out horribly wrong.
Click to expand...

plasmawave said:
Fallout 3 might have 200 endings but they SUCK!
Click to expand...

The quality of the content that actually appeared in the game doesn't make any difference to how true what he said is, though. They might be disappointing but what he said still seems to be right.
 
S

Steejee

Member
So you're saying that Todd Howard is basically the embodiment of:

tuKaGyM.jpg
 
B

Blobbers

Member
Skyrim has infinite quests, but not really
Fallout 3 has 200 endings, but not really
Radiant AI lie comes from the difference in the AI behavior in one of the Oblivion promo videos vs AI behavior in real game, it was night and day difference.

So not lies, more like exaggerations. But the world "lie" is much harder hitting and more conducive to dank memes. "don't believe his lies" anyone?
 
W

Warxard

Banned
M

Mephala

Member
Its more about bloating expectations. I've learned to expect the worst and settle for what we get while I await for mods to make the games more enjoyable to be made by enthusiast modders.
 
T

TheVoidDragon

Member
Blobbers said:
Skyrim has infinite quests, but not really
Fallout 3 has 200 endings, but not really
Radiant AI lie comes from the difference in the AI behavior in one of the Oblivion promo videos vs AI behavior in real game, it was night and day difference.

So not lies, more like exaggerations. But the world "lie" is much harder hitting and more conducive to dank memes. "don't believe his lies" anyone?
Click to expand...

How are they even exaggerations, though?

Skyrim does have infinite quests. He said "The game’s Radiant quest system randomly generates new tasks based on your progress in the game", i don't see how that could be interpreted as anything other than there being no limit to the number of quests you can have generated. We got exactly what he said; an endless number of procedural generated quests.

Fallout 3 does have 200 endings. He said it was a cinematic thing that was just combinations based on you'd done. There's even an article from the time of the games release that says it's wrong to assume it's 200 individual endings. https://www.destructoid.com/update-...t-really-endings-but-permutations-77543.phtml

I don't remember seeing the promo video, what sort of thing was different with the NPCs?
 
D

daveo42

Banned
He likes to fudge the truth until it's just covered in shit. It's real shit, but it's still shit. Also, I blame Todd for ruining Fallout.
 
C

CHC

Member
Probably because when you make statements like his without any kind of qualifiers, people expect they will be done a certain way. People always expect the best possible realization of a feature when it's mentioned.

It's like saying I own 100,000 outfits and then revealing that really I own 10 hats, 10 shirts, 10 pairs of pants, and 10 pairs of socks. True, but clearly not what you were imagining.
 
L

Lunarwhale

Member
It's because he delivers the bare minimum on all of these. Yes, Fallout 3 technically has over 200 endings in one sense, but in another it's 200 minor variations of the same ending. Yes, Skyrim has infinite quests, because some NPCs will just keep telling you to do the same quest over and over. Yes, radiant AI isn't scripted, but it behaves consistently and predictably either way.

The "don't believe his lies" part is just for fun, but like any joke it has grounds in reality; in this case being that Todd rarely delivers on expectations, only on the absolute minimum of what he sets out to do.
 
T

TheVoidDragon

Member
Lunarwhale said:
It's because he delivers the bare minimum on all of these. Yes, Fallout 3 technically has over 200 endings in one sense, but in another it's 200 minor variations of the same ending. Yes, Skyrim has infinite quests, because some NPCs will just keep telling you to do the same quest over and over. Yes, radiant AI isn't scripted, but it behaves consistently and predictably either way.

The "don't believe his lies" part is just for fun, but like any joke it has grounds in reality; in this case being that Todd rarely delivers on expectations, only on the absolute minimum.
Click to expand...

It's perfectly understandable to be disappointed in how those things were in the game, but there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest they would be anything other than that. Reading some of the quotes from the time he said the Fallout endings were just 200 different permutations of one actual ending and that the Skyrim quests were just randomly generated by NPCs with no limit to how many you could do.
 
N

Neuromancer

Member
My only complaint with the Fallout 3 ending was it showed my character with the dog, but I never found the dog in that playthrough.

Tangentially related, was it Todd Howard that pioneered the saying, "see that mountain in the distance? You can walk there"?
 
S

Sethista

Member
Its like the ending of mass effect 3 with casey hudson

Or palmer luckey saying oculus will not worry about drm

They all say things that change, and they cant take back.

it took peter 20 years + to realize he needs to not be a PR person. Maybe these guys will follow suit and realize that when you are not 100% on something, or some feature cannot be implemented 100% within expectation, silence is better.

as an example, the way howard talked about the settlement building in fallout 4 was perfect. I got exactly what I expected after the revel and when I got the game.
 
O

Ordlan

Banned
I don't think Todd Howard is a liar, but you can't take anything the man says at face value. You always have to think to yourself "How can I interpret this in the worst possible way?" He'd make a great politician.
 
A

ActWan

Member
Technically, he isn't lying in the examples you listed in the OP. But he knows what people will think after he makes these statements and that they'll take it as more than it actually is, and it's kind of a lie. I bet you haven't thought about those 200 endings we got now in Fallout 3 when he made the statement, but actually full completely different endings. Plus the copy paste radiant quests for Skyrim.
And those 3 statements aren't the only ones people talk about, there's more.
 
N

Nabbis

Member
I honestly don't know if people make threads like these for shilling or they don't get basic human psychology.

The dude markets his game in a way that he himself knows to be deceptive. The actual technicality does not matter, no one likes to be intentionally taken for a koolaid spin(aside from fanboys that eat up whatever shit their brands produce).
 
P

Pantaghana

Member
1. Skyrim has infinite quests
It has infinite fetch quests. Technically true, but let's be honest, their only purpose is to guide you to new landmarks, once you have discovered (and explored) all of them they become pointless, as each of those quests can be completed in less than 5 minutes and at that point any monetary reward is worthless because you can buy everything that can even be bought 10 times over.

2. Fallout 3 has over 200 endings
Its many endings are just insignificant variations on the same few endings.

3. Radiant AI/it's not scripted
It's scripted. Because it doesn't make sense for an AI to give you a quest to retrieve something from a cave because he's terrified that there might be a bear in it, only for 10 minutes later for him to yell "SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS" while fistfighting a dragon.
 
P

Phrozenflame500

Member
It's implicit dishonesty, which is par for the course of marketing. Fallout 3/Skyrim might technically have that many number of endings/quests but that's not really what people mean when they refer to the number of ending's/quests.

Calling it lies specifically just makes for a more amusing Chan meme. Speaking of which...

Mivey said:
You didn't even mention his, by far, most ridiculous utterance:
All of this just "works".
Click to expand...

KOJdYnS.jpg
 
A

Arkeband

Banned
Selling games on promises of "infinite" or some unending playtime is a predatory marketing tactic that relies on people being rubes who don't really understand how procedural/RNG content is generated.

Todd Howard has been exaggerating his products since the early days, but he became more bold around Oblivion.

Also, welcome to GAF, Todd.
 
R

RobbieH

Member
It has more to do with their general post-Morrowind cycle of:


  • Bethesda exaggerating every feature in [new game] prior to release e.g. [new game] has 200 hand-crafted and unique dungeons, the quest compass isn't hand-holding, you have to find a location before fast traveling, level scaling doesn't work in the awful way people expect it to, radiant AI does this, etc.
  • Removing depth and features from [previous game].
  • The media buying all of it, never mentioning how any of the promises weren't met, and praising [new game] to high heaven.
  • Bethesda shitting on [previous game] in order to promote [new game]. Remember the terrible voice-acting in [previous game]? The dreadful level scaling? How radiant AI didn't work? Well, [new game] fixes all of it, and [insert more hyping].
  • Previews for [new game] regurgitating their hype and criticizing [previous game] for the exact same things they unanimously praised [previous game] for.
  • Repeat until infinity.
It doesn't help when Todd, in particular, says stuff like this when trying to show he understands the tone of Fallout:

Violence is funny! Lets all just own up to it! Violence done well is fucking hilarious. It’s like Itchy and Scratchy or Jackass –now that’s funny!
Click to expand...
 
R

Ripenen

Member
Infinite quests is a lie though. There's a finite number of variables with a finite number of possibilities. Yes they can combined in many, many different ways to create "new" quests, but there is a finite number of combinations, correct?
 
A

Arkeband

Banned
Let's not forget that their games often launch so buggy that the players begin taking it upon themselves to create mods to patch the game in lieu of actual support from Bethesda, and when Bethesda finally gets around to patching their game the dragons start flying backwards.

Just wait until ES6 and monetized modding to hear Todd spin that shit.
 
P

Psychoward

Banned
Sethista said:
Its like the ending of mass effect 3 with casey hudson
Click to expand...
It's not anything like that though.

This was a bold-faced lie
abc.png


Nothing Todd has said comes close to this. If you can point out an example with an article or video I'll shut up.
Rushersauce said:
His latest games are trash and full of lies.
Click to expand...

You having a well-known vendetta against Bethesda doesn't negate the silly statement of the OP, especially with no proof to back it up.
 
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