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Does Sony need more variety in their first party games? Can we do less skill trees.

Apr 22, 2021
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Returnal regardless of how you look at it regardless if at the time they did not legally own them, Housemarque made returnal for Sony and only Sony. Sony approached them on that title. House marque showed them their prototype for their BR game and sony was not interested. But saw their returnal prototype and liked that so funded that whole project and at a certain milestone started talks in acquiring them. Which started way last year.

So cherry pick what you want. Returnal is first party, sony funded it even before legally owning them. I agree Final fantasy and the likes are not first party nor should they be considered. But Returnal was made exclusively for PS5 only, and was 100% funded and they were given tools internally by Sony to build the original prototype. Ratchet is first party regardless of how you want to swing it.

Ratchet started production the same time frame that they were bought by sony. It started in 2019.
I would consider Returnal a first party game personally. Same way i'd consider Deathloop an xbox first party game.
 

CrimsonSquall

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Must be nice. The settings are different and so are the characters but if thats the case people complaining about ubisoft games being similar is lame too? Acting like these games dont have very very similar gameplay philosophies is kind of turning a blind eye. No ones saying its bad but would you want more variety.
Settings completely different, engaging characters for all sorts of different reasons, skill trees for worlds that operate entirely different from each other.

This really does not need to be entertained. This is as good as it gets for reaching. Ubisoft games shouldn’t be compared to this
 
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Bluepoint are the exception because they work on actual exclusive properties like SotC and DeS. Anything else IS money hatted. It doesn’t matter if SE release a press release saying FF23 was only made possible due to the power of Sony’s crazy 3D audio technology, it doesn’t matter if Bathesda say Deathloop could only be made with Sony’s SSD in mind - it’s all just happy PR for ‘yeah they gave us a shit lod of money to make a game’. Which is fine, but they aren’t first party studios.

They're not the exception.

A large part of their fp lineup launch year was through contracted work

Sackboy, Returnal (before they were aquired) Demon's Souls, Destruction All Stars etc. We also know they have stuff in the works by Haven, Deviation Games and Firewalk
 
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Bluepoint are the exception because they work on actual exclusive properties like SotC and DeS. Anything else IS money hatted. It doesn’t matter if SE release a press release saying FF23 was only made possible due to the power of Sony’s crazy 3D audio technology, it doesn’t matter if Bathesda say Deathloop could only be made with Sony’s SSD in mind - it’s all just happy PR for ‘yeah they gave us a shit load of money to make a game’. Which is fine, but they aren’t first party studios.
How are (were) Housemarque and Insomniac any different? They also work(ed) on actual exclusive properties. You contradict yourself more than a right-winger slapping his own face with the left hand.
 
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I would consider Returnal a first party game personally. Same way i'd consider Deathloop an xbox first party game.
pulp fiction check out the big brain on brett GIF
 
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Settings completely different, engaging characters for all sorts of different reasons, skill trees for worlds that operate entirely different from each other.

This really does not need to be entertained. This is as good as it gets for reaching. Ubisoft games shouldn’t be compared to this
Thats goal post moving cause everything you said different in those games also differ in ubisoft games...I think you'd be better of saying "yea ubisoft games are different too" instead of "these difference matters, but those don't."
 

Banjo64

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How are (were) Housemarque and Insomniac any different? They also work(ed) on actual exclusive properties. You contradict yourself more than a right-winger slapping his own face with the left hand.
I never said they were different? I said Bluepoint were different.
They're not the exception.

A large part of their fp lineup launch year was through contracted work

Sackboy, Returnal (before they were aquired) Demon's Souls, Destruction All Stars etc. We also know they have stuff in the works by Haven, Deviation Games and Firesprite
I’m not disputing that, but it isn’t first party stuff.
 
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CrimsonSquall

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Thats goal post moving cause everything you said different in those games also differ in ubisoft games...I think you'd be better of saying "yea ubisoft games are different too" instead of "these difference matters, but those don't."
There’s a massive difference. There’s built in fatigue with Ubisoft being on there what, 8th Far Cry, 10th Assasins Creed and 3rd Watch Dog?
 

bitbydeath

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You named 3 studios with unannounced games...gureilla hasnt done a shooter in a decade...sackboy is a first party ip from a third party developer. Astro bot is a first party platformer. FF7 is still a timed exclusive. Guilty gear strive is a third party game with no current timeline coming to other consoles but isnt a sony published game as I stated. So of the games I listed of sony published first party diversity you have sackboy and astrobots as a rebutal. I think we need more on a larger scale because the scope of those were pretty small. R&C is somewhat that but in its modern form is still more of a third person action game with a skill tree...just more cartoonish. But the dna is still the same.

Deviation and Firewalk were announced shooters. Guerilla was shown through job hires to be making a shooter. It doesn’t matter if Sony’s paying an external studio to make an exclusive, the end result is still the same.

Now write the Xbox Series list if you really believe it is more diverse.
 
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Aldric

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The last Showcase was highly praised by the community.
Yeah and it was capeshit, some generic looking open world with an annoying protag delivering marvel cinematic universe quips and more mediocre hack n slash with GoW 2 which confirms what this thread is saying.
 
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There’s a massive difference. There’s built in fatigue with Ubisoft being on there what, 8th Far Cry, 10th Assasins Creed and 3rd Watch Dog?
Fatigue from who tho? If sales is the metric we use to measure fatigue there isn't any...their games continue to sell well. The sales for AC get better YoY. Thats why in my op I said this is a question I have not in regard to sales or quality, just based on what the hardcore may think because the vast majority of gamers don't pay that much attention to the minutia of similarities in these games. I mean 2k and madden sell millions yearly despite being the same game for over a decade. But your goal post move essentially comes down to "this one is more quality than this one, so the similarities in the one I like matter less" which isn't even an invalid point.
 
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I never said they were different? I said Bluepoint were different.

I’m not disputing that, but it isn’t first party stuff.
Dude, you said BluePoint was the "exception"... I give up man, keep the slaps going 'til your hand falls down or you face, whatever.
 
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Deviation and Firewalk were announced shooters. Guerilla was shown through job hires to be making a shooter. It doesn’t matter if Sony’s paying an external studio to make an exclusive, the end result is still the same.

Now write the Xbox Series list if you really believe it is more diverse.
Xbox issue isn't a diversity issue but a quality issue. I think this year Xbox publishing has shown major leaps in quality, but from 2021 on they need to be consistently in the GOTY. discussion like Sony is. It's not a "GOTCHA" kind of thing. Each company can improve in different places. Xbox had a great yea, they need the same next year, and 2023, 24, 25...but they do have a massive diversity in publishing. AOE, Psychonauts 2, Flight Sim, Forza, Halo and deathloop are all 6 games from 6 much different genres. Three of them being more niche genres. 4 of them will probably be in some kind of goty discussion in some category, Halo and AOE are still to be determined.
 
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zeorhymer

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I don't mind skill trees as it feels like I'm progressing my character. What I don't like is increase by +X%. or a flat number like +100 points. They can do a more creative thing like adding an extra shot or giving status effects. I think we're well past playing spreadsheets.
 

CrimsonSquall

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Fatigue from who tho? If sales is the metric we use to measure fatigue there isn't any...their games continue to sell well. The sales for AC get better YoY. Thats why in my op I said this is a question I have not in regard to sales or quality, just based on what the hardcore may think because the vast majority of gamers don't pay that much attention to the minutia of similarities in these games. I mean 2k and madden sell millions yearly despite being the same game for over a decade. But your goal post move essentially comes down to "this one is more quality than this one, so the similarities in the one I like matter less" which isn't even an invalid point.
Why do you think Ubisoft franchises gets the samey argument but Final Fantasy doesn’t?
 

SlimeGooGoo

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Yes, people invests dozens or hundreds or millions do it on things they consider are safe because the customer they are targeting likes and buys these games.
Because they want to maximize profit and milk and reuse the same formula as much as they can.
And no, they don't invest millions in game design, they invest millions in marketing, graphics fidelity, music, voice and animations.
Design is an afterthought, and they just want to reuse the same basic formula without having to think about what they're doing.

and seeing their games get huge reviews or awards proves it.
Shame Facepalm GIF by MOODMAN


Most devs don't copy Nintendo
Yeah, I'm getting an idea of the type of person I'm talking to already.

Crash Bandicoot is a 6-8 hours linear platformer game made 25 years ago unrelated to the open world games.
Again, didn't answered my question. But that's fine by now.

And there is nothing wrong with making games accessible to unskilled players or people who doesn't like too dificult games
It's called: get better at it, or manually reduce the difficulty.
No need to downplay everybody to the same baby difficulty level.
Again, maximizing profit above all else.

If you think that only the games you personally like are the only good ones and that games shouldn't be done for people with different tastes or skills than you then you need to grow up or look for therapy
Please point exactly where I said that.
Actually it's fine, don't worry about it. You're clearly one of those self proclaimed "experienced devs" that never had to leave your comfort zone, and just had to copy whatever is currently trending. Critical thinking is too hard, right?

Please, keep believing what you will. Don't even bother talking to me.
 
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Apr 22, 2021
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Why do you think Ubisoft franchises gets the samey argument but Final Fantasy doesn’t?
Yearly releases. And quality...I think a quality game overcomes some of the general conventions of its design philosphy... Physconauts 2 has some pretty generic gameplay and combat, but no one really will point it out since the story and characters are superb. I think when its yearly or bi yearly much of the heart is sucked out so people are more aware of what was in it last year or two years ago.
 
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Well, I think Sony lacks diversity in its tier 1 IPs.
Evolution studio shutdown was a massive mistake imho, and shortsighted. I miss Pacific rift fun...
Too many action adventure games. I really found Spiderman tedious. I enjoyed gow 2018 much less that gow3. I don't know exactly what but something is lacking.

And lastly, there games look like they need to check all the politically correct buzzwords. Found gow ragnarok with the black women in Norse country well...
I feels a bit like mainstream Hollywood movies : already forgotten 5 minutes after the movie ends.

Housemarque may be the studio they really needed.

Oh and it doesn't mean Microsoft is better : it's much worse imho.
 
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Dr Bass

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Yo @EviLore , who do i need to orally satisfy for that "i'm laughing at you" emoticon that we discussed in previous topics?!
Yeah I agree, we need a distinction between "Your post is funny" and "Your post is ridiculous." Though I can usually tell who is thinking what by what I wrote, and which person is selecting the emoticon.

But still.
 
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CrimsonSquall

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Yearly releases. And quality...I think a quality game overcomes some of the general conventions of its design philosphy... Physconauts 2 has some pretty generic gameplay and combat, but no one really will point it out since the story and characters are superb. I think when its yearly or bi yearly much of the heart is sucked out so people are more aware of what was in it last year or two years ago.
Yea and there’s been a skill tree in every game since FFX. You answered your own question. It’s never been about skill trees
 

PaintTinJr

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As a gamer from the arcade era, skill trees are a pet hate for me. I've only just got round to playing HZD - currently playing - and the skill tree complexity is just ruining the experience. It is just anti-gaming, and such a trudge, especially after the last two Spidey games.

I love games, but I've had enough skill trees to last a life-time, and see them as a hallmark of poor game design. My vote would be to return to harder/shorter skill based gaming in place of skill trees. So yes to OPs question they need to cut out that lazy gameplay design bloat IMHO.
 
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Yea and there’s been a skill tree in every game since FFX. You answered your own question. It’s never been about skill trees
I never said skill trees was the reason, I said I'd like less skill trees never that skill trees were the sole reason for the similarities to me.
 

ACESHIGH

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Why people on this forum get so defensive when religion... I mean Sony is brought to the table?

It's a fair take. Sony has diversity but I am sure OP meant at the AAA level. Naughty dog should stop with the cinematic cover shooters and get into WRPGs (proper WRPGs not Ubisoftian games with XP bars like HZD, God of War Days gone and more)

What about a FFVII killer? An AAA JRPG IP from Sony?
Arcade racers? Where's GT Horizon?
Character action?
MGS killer? Bring fat ass Gabe Logan back Syphon filter 1 and 2 were amazing games.
 
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Skill trees are a good solution for many games' character progression. It adds variety, it's an RPG element that allows the player some customization of their character even when that character is not supposed to be "the player" (e.g. Kratos instead of create your own). It gives the players freedom to play their character focused on some traits they favor over others. It helps keep the gameplay balanced and have a sense of progression as well. It's not appropriate for all games of course, nor it should be as expected to be a part of the gameplay system as say leveling up stats in an RPG.
 

yurinka

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Genres covered by Nintendo this gen and previous gen:

-Platformers (2D and 3D)
-Kart racing
-Action Adventure (linear and open world)
-RPG (same as above)
-T-RPG
-RTS
-Hack n slash (A-RPG, Muso)
-Fighting games (platform fighter, Arena fighter)
-TPS (online team multiplayer, rail shooter)
-FPS
-Survival horror
-Party/minigame compilation
-Life sim
-Arcade sports (tennis, golf, baseball)
-Arcade racing
-Rythmn game
-Puzzle game
-Point n click/visual novel
-Metroidvania
-Tower defense
-Exergame
-Simulation
-MOBA
-Programming

Definitely more varied than the same shit action adventure template with different mocapped actors.

I started to make the list of the genres of the PS4 1st party games and it's so long I didn't complete it, this is only from 2013 to 2016, not even half of a generation (they follow the order of the wikipedia entry, I skipped some like ports or copublished and I'm lazy to review it so very likely some are duplied):
FPS
3D platformer
Action MMO
Personality test adventure difficult to put in a genre (Doki-Doki Universe)
Puzzle
2.5D SHMUP
Rythm platformer
Mini game collection experience / tech demo
Arcade racer
Traditional open world action adventure
UGC platformer/multi-genre
Baseball
Survival Horror action adventure
2.5D stealth game
Top down shooter
Rhythm game
Psychodelic art game difficult to put in a genre (Hohokum)
Singing game
First person adventure art game or something like that (Unfinished Swan)
Soulsborne
Cutest game protagonist ever simulator gravity whatever flying open world action adventure
Hack & Slash
3D platformer
TPS action adventure
Interactive drama survival horror
Interactive drama action adventure
Walking simulator
Action RPG
2.5D PvP strategy game
Billiard
Whatever Flow, Flower and Journey are (but also released in previous gen)
2D fighting game (previous gen port funded, published and ported -outsourcing it- by Sony)
First person horror VR game
TPS 3D platformer
2.5D action adventure
Action adventure puzzle? (TLG)
Top down shooter ARPG
Platformer? art game (Bound)
Online vehicular combat game
(Assymmetric MOBA?) PVP top down shooter (Killstrain)
Difficult to put in a genre (Tomorrow Children)
Racing VR game
Billiards VR game
FPS sports VR game
'Jenga'-like puzzle VR game
Rail shooter VR game

It's a way longer list covering not even half of a generation instead of two generations. Btw, half of the years of the last decade had a ('shit action adventure') PS exclusive as the game with more GOTY awards. 9 of the 10 years had a game playable on PS. Only one of them had a Nintendo game. So they aren't 'shit', in addition to have more variety than the Nintendo 1st party games they also win more awards than them.
 

bitbydeath

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Xbox issue isn't a diversity issue but a quality issue. I think this year Xbox publishing has shown major leaps in quality, but from 2021 on they need to be consistently in the GOTY. discussion like Sony is. It's not a "GOTCHA" kind of thing. Each company can improve in different places. Xbox had a great yea, they need the same next year, and 2023, 24, 25...but they do have a massive diversity in publishing. AOE, Psychonauts 2, Flight Sim, Forza, Halo and deathloop are all 6 games from 6 much different genres. Three of them being more niche genres. 4 of them will probably be in some kind of goty discussion in some category, Halo and AOE are still to be determined.
Yes it is and your proving it by not answering.
PlayStation is far more diverse than Xbox.
 
May 28, 2013
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Xbox definitely flexed its variety this year....


Open Critic scores (unless otherwise noted) Xbox console exclusives 2021- not counting re-releases

1. Adios - 75
2. Genesis Noir - 78
3. PSO2: New Genesis - 68
4. Heliborne - 73
5. Space Jam - 55
6. Death's Door - 88
7. Flight Simulator - 91
8. The Ascent - 73
9. Lawn Mowing Simulator - 71
10. Library of Ruina - 91(Steam user score)
11. The Vale Shadow of Crown - 82
12. 12 minutes - 75
13. Myst - 2.5 (Metacritic user reviews)
14. The Big Con - 74
15. Cloud Gardens - 90 (metacritic user score)
16. Surgeon Simulator 2 - 68
17. The Artful Escape - 80
18. Sable - 76
19. Into the Pit - unreleased
20. Football Manager 22 - unreleased
21. Forza Horizon 5 - unreleased
22. Halo Infinite - unreleased

--------------

If that's what people wanna play... I mean, nothing says "variety" like Lawn Mowing Simulator.
 
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mckmas8808

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I know people will see this as FUD but I was listening to a podcast on Sony’s up coming games that we know of and as people stated before they all seem to have a similar back bone.

Spider-Man = Third person action adventure with light RPG elements (Skill tree)

GOW = Third person action adventure with light RPG elements

Horizion = TPAAwLRPGE

Wolverine = not much info but we can assume unless it’ll be a full rpg in the isometric view

Naughty Dog also has a similar DNA to their games. As my favorite studio I feel they mastered the formula the best tho.

As someone who games on all consoles (XsX, PS5 and switch) I’m not too bothered by it since my PS5 is my exclusive box but do you think Sony should add a bit of diversity to their game line up from a genre perspective? Would you like to see them fund a large budget Crpg or an isometric strategy game? Maybe dive into more untraditional genres. I know from a business perspective if it ain’t broke…but what about from a non mainstream fan perspective. What would y’all like to see, or just stick to what they’ve been doing?
At the least I’d like to see them do less skill trees and maybe do a game that is either a full RPG. The quality of their studios doing a full on RPG sounds like a good ass time to me.








No.
 
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CrimsonSquall

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Xbox definitely flexed its variety this year....


Open Critic scores (unless otherwise noted) Xbox console exclusives 2021- not counting re-releases

1. Adios - 75
2. Genesis Noir - 78
3. PSO2: New Genesis - 68
4. Heliborne - 73
5. Space Jam - 55
6. Death's Door - 88
7. Flight Simulator - 91
8. The Ascent - 73
9. Lawn Mowing Simulator - 71
10. Library of Ruina - 91(Steam user score)
11. The Vale Shadow of Crown - 82
12. 12 minutes - 75
13. Myst - 2.5 (Metacritic user reviews)
14. The Big Con - 74
15. Cloud Gardens - 90 (metacritic user score)
16. Surgeon Simulator 2 - 68
17. The Artful Escape - 80
18. Sable - 76
19. Into the Pit - unreleased
20. Football Manager 22 - unreleased
21. Forza Horizon 5 - unreleased
22. Halo Infinite - unreleased

--------------

If that's what people wanna play... I mean, nothing says "variety" like Lawn Mowing Simulator.
They flexed a variety of scores. Nothing wrong with that
 
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FStubbs

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To answer the OP, Sony has beaten all comers every gen except one. PS5 would still be breaking records if it wasn't supply constrained. I think their first party output is fine.

I'm more concerned about Nintendo's, as they rely on their first party games more than Sony does, despite seeming to have fewer first party studios than Sony does these days.
 
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yurinka

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Because they want to maximize profit and milk and reuse the same formula as much as they can.
It's what companies do. Ask Nintendo how many games from the Mario universe they have under development, both new ones and remastered or emulated ones.

And no, they don't invest millions in game design, they invest millions in marketing, graphics fidelity, music, voice and animations.
Design is an afterthought, and they just want to reuse the same basic formula without having to think about what they're doing.
Again, you have no fucking idea about game development and how complex, difficult and varied the game design work is. I was talking about spending millions on making the game as a whole. But yes, in a AAA games even if looking only at the design department they spend some millions only for that in each game. They have dozens of game designers working during years, game aren't designed with a formula, checklist or excel sheet.

You're clearly one of those self proclaimed "experienced devs" that never had to leave your comfort zone, and just had to copy whatever is currently trending. Critical thinking is too hard, right?
My patience has a limit. I'm tired of wasting time with your totally wrong, uninformed claims mentioning them as facts when you have clearly no idea of what you are talking about and not being respectful with experienced in top gaming companies, award winning professionals with working experience in this area, who try to help you explaining you stuff you clearly don't know.

Go back to your cave and troll your mother instead of me and say hello to my ignore list.
 
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BennyBlanco

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To answer the OP, Sony has beaten all comers every gen except one. PS5 would still be breaking records if it wasn't supply constrained. I think their first party output is fine.

I'm more concerned about Nintendo's, as they rely on their first party games more than Sony does, despite seeming to have fewer first party studios than Sony does these days.

Nintendo's last 2 first party games were duds but they are the last company I would worry about with 1st party output, or variety.

Can't ever remember a Nintendo game making me slowly walk next to a NPC who is spouting exposition at me while things happen in the background.
 
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PaintTinJr

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To be fair, it's hard to have big adventure games without leveling up and skill trees. Unlocking new moves and skills just keeps the gameplay fresh.
No, that's the problem right there IMHO. They've given up designing, and resigned themselves to a " we can't do better!" - which if they can't, stop making games, you aren't offering anything IMO.

Skill trees are exactly why 3x runs on the 5min Pacman Championship DX level (from psp mini game running on PS3) reminded me of why gaming is my thing - by contrast of 10hrs in HZD, pacman is exhilarating and immersive because it doesn't give you 2seconds to look away to think about anything else and do your best.

For me, gameplay is king, always has been, and is the reason I continue in frustration to buy Nintendo consoles every generation since the Cube, knowing that I need gameplay heavy games, to get through the main offering of great story and graphics - designed by committee gameplay - games Sony produce.

Gaming at its core - IMHO - is supposed to immersive, and there's nothing in gameplay less immersive than a skill tree at the moment. MGS4 is probably on the apex of the problem for me. As it sensibly provides a virtual training room to hone skills for controls/UI which negates the need for a story influencing skill tree, yet still manages to break the immersion massively with the weapon unlock trading, which feels like skill tree trudge.
 
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Yes it is and your proving it by not answering.
PlayStation is far more diverse than Xbox.
We can go game by game the past two years going into the latest known announcement we know to prove this is objectively false. PS3 Sony was, but so far this generation it hasn't been close. I would say since the launch of HZD sony kind of fallen into a niche.
 

Saint Boot

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I'd be happy if they did less post apoc worlds. I am tired of the hyper realistic mass destruction/extinction stuff we have been getting lately. Horizon, last of us, Fallout, ect.

They don't have to stop, they just need to tone it down a little.
 

Rhazer Fusion

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In my own world.
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I like Sony’s first party games and all, but I would love to see some high budget Japanese games directly from Sony or at least collaborations of some sort. I think that would definitely add more diversity to their library.
 
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We can go game by game the past two years going into the latest known announcement we know to prove this is objectively false. PS3 Sony was, but so far this generation it hasn't been close. I would say since the launch of HZD sony kind of fallen into a niche.
Announcement? Is that what you play now, announcements? How about actual released games and good damn games too? Yes please, let's focus on the last two years and take a look at those lists. Why don't you start with the Xbox list for 2021 I posted a few posts back, including all the third party console exclusives for Xbox. Years 2019 and 2018 must make for an even bigger and louder laugh....oh but you want to count announcements? Lmao. Oh for fuck's sake....bwahahahhahha
 
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