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Does Sony need more variety in their first party games? Can we do less skill trees.

michaelius

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I somewhat agree- altrough most of their 3d titles are distinct they could use fps and full rpg game in their offer.
 

Aldric

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Sony manages to put out cinematic experiences that still shit all over Nintendo games in the gameplay department

I'll give them credit that they've managed to get the jump button down at least
Agree, subpar third person shooters with aim assist up the ass and press X to Jason melee takedowns truly are the height of gameplay, when will Nintendo catch up this is the current year???
 

Papacheeks

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These threads are hilarious, now do one for Xbox. Tell me about skill threes in Microsoft games, and don’t forget to including the upcoming RPG fest.

OP has made multiple threads in similar themes about Playstations output. Guy is a xbox dude it's pretty obvious from his post history in specific threads. Thread was not made in good faith. OP omits lots of VR titles that cover some of the genre's he believes Sony is lacking in.

Sony has not tried to make a big AAA JRPG since legend of dragoon and for good reason when you look at the sales of Final fantasy on their platform. I mean there are so many Japanese publishers still making high quality JRPG'S. Though I want a Dragoon remake, im still drowning in JRPG's with Scarlet nexus, Tales of Arise, FFXVII remake, Valkyrie series, Gran Blue, anything done by Level 5. I wish Sony had a Xenoblade type of JRPG they made and built off of. To me thats Legend of dragoon.

But to ignore the shooters, platformers, puzzle games and what not sony has funded for VR, on top of smaller partnered indie titles shows this person does not follow the platform. Sony shifted a long time ago and now looks for the very best indie games in their class and helps fund them and publish.

Sifu, Kena, Jett, Stray all exclusive. WHo cares if sony made them internally or not? Their new system they have to cover those voids in genre I think is working out well than having a internal team make something that may or may not take off. Smart business.
 
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Agree, subpar third person shooters with aim assist up the ass and press X to Jason melee takedowns truly are the height of gameplay, when will Nintendo catch up this is the current year???


 

azertydu91

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You mean the game aiming for you? I have to give it to Sony their efforts to make their games accessible to the greater number of people possible are commendable even if it means catering to people who hate playing videogames.
You know you can disable those aim assist in every game no matter the console ....Don't complain that a game is too easy if you play on the easiest difficulty.
 

ZywyPL

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Absolutely, enough with this narrative-driven nonsense already. It's such a shame to see that a company that had the most diverse portfolio for over a quarter of century within a single generation became such a one-trick pony... They have so many IPs in so many genres up their sleve it's disgusting they're not using them.
 
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SquillieDee

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Bolded: multiplats all available on Playstation consoles.
Fable: Dead, old, franchise, new one to be released no sooner than 2023+
Avowed: close to vaporware so far
Killer instinct: Old and dead.

I see you mentioning lots of OLD stuff that also happen to be MULTIPLAT (the old titles also available on an Xbox), it sounds like I'm talking with a retard. Should I list Psone, PSP, Vita, PS2 and PS3 exclusive games as well? Since you are listing old shit that don't even have an exclusive sequel on Xbox yet? How is that library of vaporware working for them so far huh? Lmao

Platformers galore. 1 RPG. 1 racing game. 1 fighting game. I don't see a big difference with Sony's variety.

Big whoop. Works for them, no need to pay 7.5 billion to have tons of stuff that still needs lots of money to be developed and not making a dime for years. Variety is variety and at the moment Playstation has tons and doesn't need to change a thing since it's workin

Bolded: multiplats all available on Playstation consoles.
Fable: Dead, old, franchise, new one to be released no sooner than 2023+
Avowed: close to vaporware so far
Killer instinct: Old and dead.

I see you mentioning lots of OLD stuff that also happen to be MULTIPLAT (the old titles also available on an Xbox), it sounds like I'm talking with a retard. Should I list Psone, PSP, Vita, PS2 and PS3 exclusive games as well? Since you are listing old shit that don't even have an exclusive sequel on Xbox yet? How is that library of vaporware working for them so far huh? Lmao

Platformers galore. 1 RPG. 1 racing game. 1 fighting game. I don't see a big difference with Sony's variety.

Big whoop. Works for them, no need to pay 7.5 billion to have tons of stuff that still needs lots of money to be developed and not making a dime for years. Variety is variety and at the moment Playstation has tons and doesn't need to change a thing since it's working.
State of Decay, Grounded, Forza Horizon, Halo Infinite, MS Flight Sim, Forza Motorsport, Gears Tactics, Gears 5, Redfall, Starfield, Indiana Jones, Hellblade 2 , Perfect Dark. None of those games are vaporware. Neither is Avowed btw.
 

Topher

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I can't speak to anyone else's opinion. For all I know, there are a lot of people out there who dislike a focus on cinematics in any way, shape, or form. For me though, the major downside of games that are billed as "cinematic" is that gameplay tends to take a back seat to the director's vision, and what's there is often highly contextual and restricted.

Big "gameplay" moments are often delivered through setpieces and A-to-Awesome button prompts rather than natural, always available moves and inputs. There's rarely room in the gameplay for player choice, experimentation, or expression. You either do exactly as the designers intended or it's back to the last checkpoint you naughty monkey. It's not quite as restrictive as QTEs, but it gets there.

But that is really boiling down an entire game to an ending sequence of button mashing that is typically found at the end of a boss fight in some games. No, that is not an accurate portrayal of the games as a whole or what makes these games "cinematic" at all. There is a ton of game play that your post is simply ignoring.

Nintendo factually have far more variety in their first party offerings than Sony. You people eat up the same generic resi4 style camera "cinematic" experience with laughably shallow automated gameplay and pretend one roguelite bombing horribly is the sign of a balanced first party offering. But hey we should all be thankful to Sony for elevating the medium with licensed capeshit titles and third rate AssCreed clones (Ubisoft towers are ok when Sony does it).

Nah.....you just like Nintendo games better. It is fine to have that opinion, but your take on Sony's offering just misses the mark entirely. Others have provided lists of games that are not cinematic at all and don't follow this nonsensical formula that is being parroted here by posters who, let's face it, simply do not like PlayStation games. The "cinematic" label, frankly, comes across to me as a desperate attempt to downplay some truly excellent games.

BTW, I liked the way Nintendo employed Ubisoft towers in BotW as well.
 
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yurinka

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I would argue it's the most used, not necessarily the best. Probably the safest.
See, my main issue is with designers not really trying to come up with different alternatives and simply embracing whatever is popular because they feel like it's the only choice.
They copy what is good, what it works better in other games what most people like. Not only looking at sales, but also deconstructing the other games, making playtests to see what players like, what do they don't understand or remember, how do the prefer to have stuff, etc.

No offense, I just think that's a lot of buzzwords. Most games aren't even that complex to allow a huge variety of interactions.
And those that allow some creative interactions (e.g. Zelda) don't really need it.
They aren't buzzwords, they are basic game design terms and working areas. Zelda also has many unlockable skills/techniques/important weapons that are unlocked (like its areas) in a tree and that you get when achieving certain tasks (see what I said about GTA, it applies to most open world games). Zelda got many things from Ubisoft-like open world games and other ones like Monster Hunter. All devs use references from other games and copy stuff. Zelda never added nothing new.

RPGs and action RPGs are probably the main genres that require this, I agree. Because character skill has priority over player skill. And so, the only way to improve the characters is by skills and abilities, level, equipment and so on.
To keep unlocking new stuff as you progress to add discovery and variety to the gameplay is something that is applied to most genres beyond skills/abilities/features: it can be new weapons or weapon customization stuff in a shooter, new cars/motor/wheels/whatever to customize them in racing games, or permanent items that unlock you to do something new or in a different way. They may not be in a skills tree menu in terms of UI, but in terms of game design they are the same: unlockable ways to expand the gameplay strategically spread to the game to make sure you get one of them every X amount of time so you don't get bored of playing always in the same way.

But for action games I disagree completely. Player skill should be the priority.
This is just companies trying to make the game dumb and simple for the masses, and adding this fluff to make it sound complex.
So even bad players can feel "powerful".
In action games the priority is the action and feel powerful, and skill is key too. But for the same reason mentioned above, there are the skill trees, perks (which are mostly the same) or if they are very linear, the unlockable skills are given to you as reward when completing/reaching certain area.

Oompa Loompa, do-ba-dee-doo, I've got a chicken and egg question for you.
Are the games long because of the skill tree fluff was added, or they were already long without it?
Skill trees exist to make (specially the non-linear ones) long games less boring and repetitive ensuring you unlock new gameplay stuff every X amount of time and to allow you to customize your gameplay. Short games don't need skill trees beause they don't have time to unlock a lot of things, and since they tend to be linear it's easy to place the unlockables across the game as reward when reaching/completing certain level/area, in the old traditional way.

Also, disagree with "evolution". It's just another option for designers.
I think it's kinda the safe way out though.
Yes, it's another option and they use them when it makes sense and improves the game. They work specially well in long games, specially the non-linear ones. So they use them there. And since AAA adventure/action/rpg games become longer and longer, and wider and wider moving to open world they become more common.

Wasn't everybody's golf Japan studio?
Published by the XDEV Japanese branch that until a few months ago was under Japan Studio (now it's under XDEV but continues there, they publish Death Stranding Director's Cut). Developed by Camelot (the first one) and mostly Clap Hanz (all the sequels, they publish this year their own golf game for Apple Arcade).

Nintendo factually have far more variety in their first party offerings than Sony. You people eat up the same generic resi4 style camera "cinematic" experience with laughably shallow automated gameplay and pretend one roguelite bombing horribly is the sign of a balanced first party offering. But hey we should all be thankful to Sony for elevating the medium with licensed capeshit titles and third rate AssCreed clones (Ubisoft towers are ok when Sony does it).
100% bullshit post. You can go and check in wikipedia the games Sony and Nintendo published this generation or in the last decade and you'll see Sony covered way more genres and released way more new IPs. And I'm pretty sure Ubisoft towers and all the other stuff BotW got from Ubi (and similar) open world games is ok to you when Nintendo does it.
 
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kyussman

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I'd like to know why they are so averse to making a big budget wrpg,putting skill trees in your action games doesn't turn them into rpg's....I guess Xbox have wrpg's locked down now anyway but would still like to see them have a go.
 
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They don’t publish most of these games. But I will commend Sony for tying third party timed exclusives to their system to the point many of their more hardcore fans use it in an argument where the question was about their diversity as a publisher. The PS5 console has a ton of of variety due to third party games.
I gather we're talking titles that are native to current-gen right?

Shooters (1st/Third) - Deviation, Firewalk, Guerilla
2D Platformers - Nope, they do have Sackboy and Astrobot (3D platformer)
Fighting Games - Guilty Gear Strive
RPG - Final Fantasy 7 Remake Integrade
RTS - Nope, these mainly stick to PC
Sandbox - Tons, OP is about this
Survival - Abandoned ;-)

Now do Xbox Series X games, no BC.
 
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Warablo

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Sony games are now just higher quality Ubisoft games at this point. Horizon really pointed that out for me and Ghost of Tsushima confirmed it. Enjoyed both games though.
 
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State of Decay, Grounded, Forza Horizon, Halo Infinite, MS Flight Sim, Forza Motorsport, Gears Tactics, Gears 5, Redfall, Starfield, Indiana Jones, Hellblade 2 , Perfect Dark. None of those games are vaporware. Neither is Avowed btw.
Thanks for listing more games. Again, you can't pretend that is any different or superior to the variety PlayStation has. You cite games like Perfect Dark. That's an IP Xbox's had for over a decade now and now they are develeoping a new game, to be released who knows 2023-2024 maybe.

PlayStation also has tons of IPs we could fill a whole page up just listing them, many on every single genre. No one, not even Nintendo owns more IPs than Sony. But what good does that really do if those IPs aren't getting new games. I mean, sure it's nice we can play the old games (some easier than the rest, since not all of them are readily available on the PS Store in digital form), but IPs for the sake of naming IPs is not what will excites us in our present time.

So when someone comes to me saying oh Xbox has Doom, it has Fallout, and any other OLD and forever old Multiplat game, i say that's great they have the IP but as of now they don't have any *exclusive* game from that IP. It's as if you were to list all the Rare IPs of old MS owns like that means anything. Let's wait for them to deliver the exclusives before we can count them, because in terms of having IPs, Sony is the king, and that's nice but matters little if they don't have anything new.

And you name a game like Avowed and tell me its not vaporware because it's been announced? You know there are games that are announced that never come to exist right? Again, wake me up when they deliver the exclusives, and at the time they will have this "variety" that rivals the library of games you can already play on a PlayStation.
 
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Can we pin this comment because in the next few years I wanna laugh at them
Exactly. In the next few YEARS you'e welcome to laugh if it happens MS and Nintendo achieve this superior variety you think they have over Sony. And MS in particular has IPs, has Studios. But so far, no exclusives games from them. That's what I'm talking about. But of course to you having IPs and having some games announced at last (For Xbox) it's like that means they already have them and on top of that, it means more variety than what Playstation has as a console exclusive, 1st party or otherwise. Wake me up then, like you say, in "a few years". I'll be playing in the present.
 
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Wait wait... are we all just glossing over the fact that OP claimed wolverine would be an isometric rpg!? Press X to motherfucking doubt.
I said itll be a third person action game with light rpg elements UNLESS they surprise us and make it a game of a different genre...since we know nothing about it. But we know what itll be, a wolverine third person cinematic game with a skill tree. probably that spinning attack wolvering got in there, faster regeneration, larger health bar...etc.
 

SquillieDee

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Thanks for listing more games. Again, you can't pretend that is any different or superior to the variety PlayStation has. You cite games like Perfect Dark. That's an IP Xbox's had for over a decade now and now they are develeoping a new game, to be released who knows 2023-2024 maybe.

PlayStation also has tons of IPs we could fill a whole page up just listing them, many on every single genre. No one, not even Nintendo owns more IPs than Sony. But what good does that really do if those IPs aren't getting new games. I mean, sure it's nice we can play the old games (some easier than the rest, since not all of them are readily available on the PS Store in digital form), but IPs for the sake of naming IPs is not what will excites us in our present time.

So when someone comes to me saying oh Xbox has Doom, it has Fallout, and any other OLD and forever old Multiplat game, i say that's great they have the IP but as of now they don't have any *exclusive* game from that IP. It's as if you were to list all the Rare IPs of old MS owns like that means anything. Let's wait for them to deliver the exclusives before we can count them, because in terms of having IPs, Sony is the king, and that's nice but matters little if they don't have anything new.

And you name a game like Avowed and tell me its not vaporware because it's been announced? You know there are games that are announced that never come to exist right? Again, wake me up when they deliver the exclusives, and at the time they will have this "variety" that rivals the library of games you can already play on a PlayStation.
Perfect Dark and Avowed are real games that are in development. Yes games get canceled, but there is no reason to think these games are not coming out. What do you have to say about the other games I listed?
 
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Perfect Dark and Avowed are real games that are in development. Yes games get canceled, but there is no reason to think these games are not coming out. What do you have to say about the other games I listed?
They're alright. What about them? The post you replied to was my response to a guy that was dismissing PlayStation variety as if Sony doesn't have just as much as Xbox or Nintendo.
 

Mr.ODST

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Ill be honest on the variety front.

PS3 and early PS4 days were great for variety away from the 3rd person cinematic experience, there was a lot more risks taken but they have moved away from the MP / Social Experience.

Games like SOCOM, WarHawk, MAG, Killzone and more were fondly remembered because they were Sony's premium multiplayer experiences but those projects have failed and a few more have ultimately failed (Destruction All-Stars).

MS kills it in this space with Sea of Theives, State of Decay, Halo Infinite (from what I've played and from what others have spoken about in terms of MP), Forza and more

Each company has their own strengths but let's not lie that most MP titles and experiences that release on PlayStation fail within at least 6 months - a year, someone posted that Firewall (PSVR) was one of their best MP products on the market but the player base is so minuscule and not too long ago the game was not doing great atall (I did like the game and was fun but games like Pavlov and Onward have excellent esports scenes).

We know they are starting to build some MP projects which is great and will be interesting to see where they go with them.
 
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You mean the game aiming for you? I have to give it to Sony their efforts to make their games accessible to the greater number of people possible are commendable even if it means catering to people who hate playing videogames.
Yea this take ain't it...TLOUII is right up Sonys wheel house in genre...but its polished to such an extent I don't complain about it. I think the success of naughty dogs game is why they decided to go down that path. I think Naughty dog should stick to it but other studios should expand. for example croy Barlogs next game will probably be third person, but I hope it tries elements that make it more unique than what they do...maybe make it less cinematic lol...idk
 

MonarchJT

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we talking about big AAA first party? Then YES everyone know they have to. They basically trashed any genre other than TPA. They used to have some good FPS ... arcade racers .... they used to bet an invest on GT (which is now a bad copy of itself) etc etc
 
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kevm3

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They absolutely need to leave skill trees in these games. I like the customization... but they need to make the branch you choose matter more. I should feel like I'm almost playing a different character because I went down a different branch of the skill tree
 

SlimeGooGoo

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They copy what is good, what it works better in other games what most people like. Not only looking at sales, but also deconstructing the other games, making playtests to see what players like, what do they don't understand or remember, how do the prefer to have stuff, etc.
In other words: what it's safe.
They don't care about what they're doing. They don't want to use their brain.

They aren't buzzwords, they are basic game design terms and working areas
In other words, it makes designers sound smart, and marketers happy.
That's why we have thousands of games that are simply clones of whatever is popular, no one bothers understanding what they're doing, just use buzzwords to fool everybody.
No wonder everybody copies Nintendo, they're the only ones that makes their designers think and actually use their brain.

All devs use references from other games and copy stuff
Never claimed otherwise.

Short games don't need skill trees beause they don't have time to unlock a lot of things
Didn't answered my question.
Crash Bandicoot is a long game, and it doesn't require skill trees. I'm not talking about "unlockables", but skill trees which was the entire point of this talk.
Skill trees are there just to artificially prolong the game more than they need to. Also, to make bad players feel good without requiring actual skill.
That's a horrible trend for action games.
It's design by checklist, shallow and dumb.
 

Scotty W

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I don’t follow Sony much, but one thing that struck me recently was that a lot of the ps1 games had so much name recognition and were so tied to Sony, that it is surprising that Sony never tried to develop that legacy in any way. Most of the franchises are now cross platform now, and that’s got to hurt.

Crash, mgs, syphon filter, Tenchu, Twisted Metal, Ridge Racer, Tekken, Pandemonium, as well as some games that also appeared on Saturn like RE, Wipeout and Toh Shin Den.
 

SpokkX

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What is their biggest FPS and RPG?
Haha

but yeah their big games are VERY similar in many ways. Third person, skill trees, lots of character focus and cutscenes.. oh and lot of ”forced slow walk sections”

they have no fps, no real rpgs, no strategy games, no 2d playformers, no survival games, almost no multiplayer games (no coop at least right?)

oh games released 10 years ago dont count
 
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yurinka

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In other words: what it's safe.
Yes, people invests dozens or hundreds or millions do it on things they consider are safe because the customer they are targeting likes and buys these games.

Nintendo is a good example: they are way more conservative than Sony and prefer to invest less in new IPs, less new genres, less new features, less markets/technologies (like VR or streaming) and so on. They prefer to invest what they know their customers will buy.

They don't care about what they're doing. They don't want to use their brain.
In other words, it makes designers sound smart, and marketers happy.
On average designers and specially programmers are way more intelligent than the average people, and to make intelligent decision to improve their games like to include skill trees where make sense and seeing their games get huge reviews or awards proves it.

It's also a business, so to make better products that the customers will like more it's also good for business, so marketers may like it. Even if they are totally unrelated to game design specific decisions and have 0 influence on if a game features a skill tree or not.

That's why we have thousands of games that are simply clones of whatever is popular, no one bothers understanding what they're doing, just use buzzwords to fool everybody.
No wonder everybody copies Nintendo, they're the only ones that makes their designers think and actually use their brain.
Most devs don't copy Nintendo, and Nintendo also copies the other devs. As an example, how they modernized Zelda copying a lot of things from Ubisoft-like open worlds or Monster Hunter, or how they have been copying stuff from Media Molecule for games like the Mario Makers.

Didn't answered my question.
Crash Bandicoot is a long game, and it doesn't require skill trees. I'm not talking about "unlockables", but skill trees which was the entire point of this talk.
Crash Bandicoot is a 6-8 hours linear platformer game made 25 years ago unrelated to the open world games.

Skill trees are there just to artificially prolong the game more than they need to. Also, to make bad players feel good without requiring actual skill.
That's a horrible trend for action games.
It's design by checklist, shallow and dumb.
Skill trees aren't related at all to difficulty. And there is nothing wrong with making games accessible to unskilled players or people who doesn't like too dificult games, they also should be able to play. If you think that only the games you personally like are the only good ones and that games shouldn't be done for people with different tastes or skills than you then you need to grow up or look for therapy.
 
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Haha

but yeah their big games are VERY similar in many ways. Third person, skill trees, lots of character focus and cutscenes.. oh and lot of ”forced slow walk sections”

they have no fps, no real rpgs, no strategy games, no 2d playformers, no survival games, almost no multiplayer games (no coop at least right?)

oh games released 10 years ago dont count
Yeah...poor Sony, they are doing Soo BAD. Imagine kicking Xbox ass all generation long and so far this one without a "proper RPG" and a "FPS" of their own. It surely cost them so much not having that enormous variety the Xbox platform has, they must be crazy they haven't changed their strategy, like giving all their poor IPs day one on PS Now to try and compete with Xbox and their FPS and "proper" (yet so far inexistent as exclusive) RPGs. They're doomed!
 

Jigsaah

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More variety is always a good thing IMO. It's just not what Sony is focused on though. It's plain to see they want huge IP and Iconic characters coming out of first party. They leave the variety to 3rd party to fill out their portfolio. I don't really have a problem with it. I'd rather Sony 1st party do less variety but do what they do really REALLY well, than to go off in some uncharted territory and make flops.
 

Aldric

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Nah.....you just like Nintendo games better. It is fine to have that opinion, but your take on Sony's offering just misses the mark entirely. Others have provided lists of games that are not cinematic at all and don't follow this nonsensical formula that is being parroted here by posters who, let's face it, simply do not like PlayStation games. The "cinematic" label, frankly, comes across to me as a desperate attempt to downplay some truly excellent games.

BTW, I liked the way Nintendo employed Ubisoft towers in BotW as well.
The "cinematic" label accurately describes Sony's design philosophy which is to prioritize narrative, presentation and spectacle over gameplay mechanics which is the complete opposite of Nintendo's. A game like God of War is an utterly mediocre hack n slash elevated by its graphics and hackneyed fatherhood narrative, everyone familiar with action games can see it has tons of problems with its combat system, player progression and camera.
 

GymWolf

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The "cinematic" label accurately describes Sony's design philosophy which is to prioritize narrative, presentation and spectacle over gameplay mechanics which is the complete opposite of Nintendo's. A game like God of War is an utterly mediocre hack n slash elevated by its graphics and hackneyed fatherhood narrative, everyone familiar with action games can see it has tons of problems with its combat system, player progression and camera.
Yo EviLore EviLore , who do i need to orally satisfy for that "i'm laughing at you" emoticon that we discussed in previous topics?!
 
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Topher

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The "cinematic" label accurately describes Sony's design philosophy which is to prioritize narrative, presentation and spectacle over gameplay mechanics which is the complete opposite of Nintendo's. A game like God of War is an utterly mediocre hack n slash elevated by its graphics and hackneyed fatherhood narrative, everyone familiar with action games can see it has tons of problems with its combat system, player progression and camera.

No, that's just your perspective because you favor Nintendo's style of game play over Sony's. I thought the game play of God of War was fantastic. It comes down to preference.
 

daclynk

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I know people will see this as FUD but I was listening to a podcast on Sony’s up coming games that we know of and as people stated before they all seem to have a similar back bone.

Spider-Man = Third person action adventure with light RPG elements (Skill tree)

GOW = Third person action adventure with light RPG elements

Horizion = TPAAwLRPGE

Wolverine = not much info but we can assume unless it’ll be a full rpg in the isometric view

Naughty Dog also has a similar DNA to their games. As my favorite studio I feel they mastered the formula the best tho.

As someone who games on all consoles (XsX, PS5 and switch) I’m not too bothered by it since my PS5 is my exclusive box but do you think Sony should add a bit of diversity to their game line up from a genre perspective? Would you like to see them fund a large budget Crpg or an isometric strategy game? Maybe dive into more untraditional genres. I know from a business perspective if it ain’t broke…but what about from a non mainstream fan perspective. What would y’all like to see, or just stick to what they’ve been doing?
At the least I’d like to see them do less skill trees and maybe do a game that is either a full RPG. The quality of their studios doing a full on RPG sounds like a good ass time to me.









Thats all they need for their 'Sony Interactive Cinematic Emotional Universe' GAMES.