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Does Trump deserve the Nobel Prize if NK de-nuclearizes?

Uh, do people actually believe Trump will meet North Korea? The White House has already downplayed the potential of a meeting. It's just another example of Trump shooting his mouth off without thinking.

Yeah are the rest of you guys so tuned into Fox News you didn't catch the downplay by Sen. Sanders everywhere else?

"The president will not have the meeting without seeing concrete steps and concrete actions take place by North Korea."
 

SoulUnison

Banned
I mean Yes? Obama ACTUALLY killed 117 or more innocent people with robots. He still won right?
http://www.newsweek.com/strikes-during-obamas-presidency-killed-many-117-civilians-545080

There's a difference, there.

Obama ordered strikes on legitimate targets and civillians happened to be present or were intentionally used as shields.
Trump flat out said "let's murder innocent people as a deterrent to their 'terrorist' family members."
"The other thing with the terrorists is you have to take out their families, when you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. They care about their lives, don't kid yourself. When they say they don't care about their lives, you have to take out their families,"

One is unfortunate circumstances that you could argue some due diligence wasn't done.
The other is the President of the United States legitimately saying "Are you a terrorist? Well, we'll kill your innocent wife, we'll shoot your innocent son, we'll murder your innocent daughter."

They're not in the same ballpark.
 
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No. Why would it?

So my point still stands. Telsa sales, just like another else electric, rely upon Government money to be competitive in the market. California alone has spent nearly half a billion on Electric car rebates in the last 6 years. And a bill just got denied for another $3 Billion. Which is a dumbfounding amount of money considering Cali is the poverty capital of America.
 
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Deleted member 12837

Unconfirmed Member
So my point still stands. Telsa sales, just like another else electric, rely upon Government money to be competitive in the market. California alone has spent nearly half a billion on Electric car rebates in the last 6 years. And a bill just got denied for another $3 Billion. Which is a dumbfounding amount of money considering Cali is the poverty capital of America.

What you’ve presented isn’t proof that Tesla “relies” on the government to be competitive. Only that they currently benefit (along with every other car company since they’re all pursuing electric).

Their subsidies will run out soon (200k cars sold I believe?). If their sales tank, we’ll know then. I’m pretty confident they won’t.

I don’t see how the comment about California is relevant, but this is the first time I’ve ever seen anyone address it as the “poverty capital of America” so if you wish to pursue that angle in your argument you should provide some sort of supporting evidence.

I’m also a bit unclear on why government subsidies are “bad” in the first place.
 
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What you’ve presented isn’t proof that Tesla “relies” on the government to be competitive. Only that they currently benefit (along with every other car company since they’re all pursuing electric).

Their subsidies will run out soon (200k cars sold I believe?). If their sales tank, we’ll know then. I’m pretty confident they won’t.

I don’t see how the comment about California is relevant, but this is the first time I’ve ever seen anyone address it as the “poverty capital of America” so if you wish to pursue that angle in your argument you should provide some sort of supporting evidence.

I’m also a bit unclear on why government subsidies are “bad” in the first place.

Without subsidies, a lot of companies/programs (be it automotive or solar) wouldn't even exist because the product would be price out of what most people are willing to spend. Tesla saw a sales increase of 120% in Ontario after they introduced subsidies. Tesla is doing as well as it is today because of government hand outs. Same goes for anything else Electric, that shit is expensive without it. Especially a few years ago, its gotten better.

The Poverty comment is relevant because $3 Billion is a disgusting amount of money to even consider when it's badly needed elsewhere in the State. Google Poverty Capital of America, not exactly a secret. San Francisco for example is great, just make sure you use the app telling you where the highest concentration of people shitting in the streets are. Not even joking, that's actually a thing.

And Government subsides are great, when the Government/State has the money. The Ontario Government offered $6,000-$14,000 per Tesla until just recently. Awesome right? No, it wasn't. Hydro prices in rural Ontario are out of control and people are struggling too afford it. Yet some asshole buying a Tesla was getting $6,000-$14,000 off his car? Please.
 
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Deleted member 12837

Unconfirmed Member
Without subsidies, a lot of companies/programs (be it automotive or solar) wouldn't even exist because the product would be price out of what most people are willing to spend.

That’s unlikely the case for Tesla, which began as an already expensive luxury car. Rich guys don’t care about saving a few % in their $100k car purchase.

I don’t even really know how Canada got dragged into the discussion, but my comments this far have only been meant to apply to the US.
 
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Egh, electric car subsidies are good, and they won't make it in the marketplace without them. Yes people who can never afford them are seeing gas tax/other, but I think it's worth it right now (aren't we all a little afraid of what happens when they expire).
 

Jezan

Member
Should probably fix his country first, if he did that maybe Kim wouldn't pay him attention and threaten other countries.
 
That’s unlikely the case for Tesla, which began as an already expensive luxury car. Rich guys don’t care about saving a few % in their $100k car purchase. I don’t even really know how Canada got dragged into the discussion, but my comments this far have only been meant to apply to the US.

Tesla never would have survived making expensive luxury cars. In that world, you either get bought by a major Automotive company looking for a niche luxury brand or go bankrupt. And Tesla's expansion into making less expensive cars for the masses relies on Government money making them more affordable. At least until the technology gets cheaper.

Ontario was simply an example.

..and the fact that we desperately need to quickly reduce carbon emissions comes in to play where exactly?

If you want desperate, go read up on America's Infrastructure problem. Nothing like driving that new Electric car over roads that are crumbling and bridges that are literally falling apart beneath you.
 

TrainedRage

Banned
Should probably fix his country first, if he did that maybe Kim wouldn't pay him attention and threaten other countries.
Please tell, how we should 'fix' America? What is the big problem you see (in America) that's so much worse than what NORTH KOREA?
 
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Deleted member 12837

Unconfirmed Member
Tesla never would have survived making expensive luxury cars. In that world, you either get bought by a major Automotive company looking for a niche luxury brand or go bankrupt. And Tesla's expansion into making less expensive cars for the masses relies on Government money making them more affordable. At least until the technology gets cheaper.

I’m having trouble understanding this logic. It sounds like you more or less agree that the subsidies don’t affect sales of the Tesla luxury cars much due to their price point and target audience income level.

You mention they’ll help the Model 3, which I would agree with, except the subsidies stop after 200,000 cars sold, meaning it won’t really apply to the Model 3 for very long. Definitely not enough to make the assertion that Tesla will be “relying” on the government to stay in business (Not to mention Elon is wealthy enough to keep the company running on his own dime. Wouldn’t be the first time

Also doesn’t really explain why Elon has been so vocal about getting rid of the subsidies altogether, if his company is so dependent on them.
 

llien

Member
I thought this was a joke thread, but hey, meeting with mad little rocket men is a decided deal, I'm shocked.

Giving it to Obama was not justified when it happened as he did pretty much nothing at that point, and later on with all the mess in Libia (some would blame Clinton, but he was in charge) and Syria, it become apparent it was a mistake.

Trump, provided he doesn't blow up anything else, would deserve it just for fairness sake.
 
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Blackie

Member
I don't trust NK until they have a regime change, they can say whatever they want about having talks but we have heard this type of "good cop NK bad cop NK" routine from them before.
 

Airola

Member
Should probably fix his country first, if he did that maybe Kim wouldn't pay him attention and threaten other countries.

So, when Trump says "America first" he gets criticized for it and when he does something somewhere else he gets told to fix America first.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?
 

Azelover

Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
It ain't gonna happen. But if he can accomplish that, definitely.
 
I’m having trouble understanding this logic. It sounds like you more or less agree that the subsidies don’t affect sales of the Tesla luxury cars much due to their price point and target audience income level.

You mention they’ll help the Model 3, which I would agree with, except the subsidies stop after 200,000 cars sold, meaning it won’t really apply to the Model 3 for very long. Definitely not enough to make the assertion that Tesla will be “relying” on the government to stay in business (Not to mention Elon is wealthy enough to keep the company running on his own dime. Wouldn’t be the first time

Also doesn’t really explain why Elon has been so vocal about getting rid of the subsidies altogether, if his company is so dependent on them.

You must, because that's opposite of what I'm saying *shrugs*.

We obviously disagree. I think we've hijacked this thread long enough.
 
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Deleted member 12837

Unconfirmed Member
You must, because that's opposite of what I'm saying *shrugs*.

We obviously disagree. I think we've hijacked this thread long enough.

Fair enough, I guess we'll just have to wait and see if Tesla survives and is still around in a few years now that the subsidies are close to running out to know one way or the other.
 

xStoyax

Banned
lbaWIY7.png
 

pramod

Banned
Peace treaty? An embassy?? This is just nuts...I hope it's not going to get everyone's hopes up so much and then a big let down.....
 
Could be a humiliation con by Kimmy; get everyone's hopes up, then back out at the last moment and resume testing. Might just need more time to prep that hydrogen bomb atmospheric test somewhere in the Pacific. Trump wants to hold a veterans day military parade, then that would be a good time to overshadow it with an above ground 1+ megaton test.

But unlikely.

Kimmy no doubt feels he has enough bargaining power now. He can finally get that peace deal and garner legitimacy globally by normalizing his country's relations with the US. He would enter a new era and see an end to sanctions. As for nuclear disarmament, he can drag that out for decades so it comes to nothing. Logic dictates NK will never give up the only weapons it has that can completely deter western aggression.
 
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Kimmy no doubt feels he has enough bargaining power now. He can finally get that peace deal and garner legitimacy globally by normalizing his country's relations with the US. He would enter a new era and see an end to sanctions. As for nuclear disarmament, he can drag that out for decades so it comes to nothing. Logic dictates NK will never give up the only weapons it has that can completely deter western aggression.

Then again, he doesn't have much if any bargaining power. Because of the obviousness of it, there needs to be control mechanism for the US to view the deal as having any merit. They might do it as a soft strategy, hoping that the trade and economic growth would lead NK to be softened up over time. Much easier to rebel once you see signs of prosperity and future happiness, especially if it gets taken away.
More so, it's not a weapon they needed, as much as a weapon giving them independence from China, namely the Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty, which together with US reluctance due to the danger to a city like Seoul from artillery fire, made attacking NK not much an option.

In my opinion, the US should've responded with putting nuclear weapons back in SK again. Some analysts have warned against such a move, fearing sanctions and possible nuclear proliferation from such a move, but I'm much less convinced that we won't see more nuclear proliferation with NK's grab for attention and power.
More so, its guarantee against aggression isn't as effective as one can imagine. There are tons of weaknesses, including a covert military attack making it possible for retaliation to be hard if one can't identify the enemy country, or even more so if it's disguised as another country. If it's automated with pre-chosen targets, that allows for a third country to abuse it. Then you have new technology being developed that could invalidate their arsenal. Then you have biological weapons that could be used to wipe out NK and make retaliation harder, though that comes with a lot of dangers as well and of course a lot of dead people and disrupting the peace of the current MAD.
I'm more surprised China has allowed NK to create nukes right next door, as it's a dangerous game they're playing in length. More so if the security systems, errors or people have a chance of causing a launch. Even a large accident can, if the wind goes the right way, spread into the Korean Bay and Yellow Sea, dealing economical and environmental damage to China.

His only bargaining power would be to remove the nukes, but again, since he doesn't want to do that and since trying to drag out nuclear disarmament becomes obvious, he might stand facing far more concessions to avoid more sanctions. In a way, Obama's TPP strategy could've weakened China's economic power which could've been beneficial as means to disarm NK. Or the US might've folded out of fear of escalating conflict and aggression. Then again, Obama and Bush have dropped a lot of balls when it comes to NK leading us here. And let's not forget the Ukrainian Revolution, in which the West dropped the ball hard as well (I sat and watched and knew that Russia would interfere with Ukraine being in their geopolitical sphere of influence).

The Western diplomatic approach needs to stop in its current form, its risk averseness only seeks to reward empty promises. Weird, considering their terrible approach to Russia, which tries to sanction Russia, as if it'll achieve anything and doesn't seem like a weak attempt at exercising power. They seem to bank on rebellion amongst Putin's inner circle, but that's highly unlikely to happen. The US needs to proactive instead of reactive all the time.
 
Denuclearization doesn't necessarily mean peace. However, if what I'm hearing about this peace treaty is true and there's commitment by both sides, then Pres. Trump should be considered. It's sad that someone who's new to this is creating more momentum towards peace than the experts who have failed for decades.
 
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NK offered a peace treaty in 2016, but it got rejected and reproposed with denuclearization, but NK rejected that. They need their nukes.

It's a good move for NK to reduce the heat after escalating things so much. Imo a peace treaty shouldnt come with NK being the same country that it is now.
 
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Damerman

Member
Meeting with Kim is honestly a sign of weakness unless he really pulls something out of this. Kim is the one who looks strong here. He got the top guy of the strongest military in the world to come meet with him in person to personally give him whatever he wants for his nukes. Basically it tells the world "Hey, got nukes? Cause that's how you get a table with the big boys. You should all get some too!"

"Positive relations with Russia" get the hell out of here. The rest of the world hates this. We look like the bitch in this situation. We've gotten nothing of benefit out of Russia, while Russia is getting away with whatever they want.

Last I checked, Brexit was a giant cluster fuck that ended up exploding in their faces.

Jerusalem? US got jack shit out of that as well.

Exactly what did we do with any of these things made us look stronger?
Its crazy that you had to type this out. You would think it was obvious.
 
No, because NK will never de-nuclearise.

NK is a country that is justifiably paranoid that the rest of the world wants it gone. Which is true. The world would be better without NK. So NK will hold onto any weapon it can that will give the rest of the world pause. If it gets Nukes, it will never give them up.
 

NickFire

Member
NK offered a peace treaty in 2016, but it got rejected and reproposed with denuclearization, but NK rejected that. They need their nukes.

It's a good move for NK to reduce the heat after escalating things so much. Imo a peace treaty shouldnt come with NK being the same country that it is now.
I think the NK government is beyond despicable, but if a peace treaty tied into denuclearization is agreeable to both sides, I would fully support it. I certainly would like to see the people of NK given the chance to better succeed at life, and understand that as long as the regime endures they will not likely get such a chance. But it is possible that as evil as KJU is, he wants to be known throughout history in more endearing terms on the world stage, including by bringing his country into the 21st century. To the extent it does not happen, I would still much prefer that we respect their sovereignty as long as they give up the means to carry years of threats to nuke the US. I fully support the US fighting back when attacked or provoked, but short of that I prefer we stay out of things that do not directly affect us.

So if they truly give up the nukes, I am completely at ease with opening diplomatic relations, embassies, etc. Small price to pay to keep our current and future generations out of world war 3.
 
I think the NK government is beyond despicable, but if a peace treaty tied into denuclearization is agreeable to both sides, I would fully support it. I certainly would like to see the people of NK given the chance to better succeed at life, and understand that as long as the regime endures they will not likely get such a chance. But it is possible that as evil as KJU is, he wants to be known throughout history in more endearing terms on the world stage, including by bringing his country into the 21st century. To the extent it does not happen, I would still much prefer that we respect their sovereignty as long as they give up the means to carry years of threats to nuke the US. I fully support the US fighting back when attacked or provoked, but short of that I prefer we stay out of things that do not directly affect us.

So if they truly give up the nukes, I am completely at ease with opening diplomatic relations, embassies, etc. Small price to pay to keep our current and future generations out of world war 3.

Yeah, if we can legitimately get that we have to do it.
But Trump cant do anything right? Right? I'm sure Hillary would have done this. Right?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-to-sign-peace-treaty-with-trump-report-says

Did you read your own source? It's too early for victory dances. Gotta wait and see how it develops, rather than going with Trump's gut reaction.
 

Tumle

Member
Fuck! people just like digging trenches huh?
If you don’t think Obama dervered a nobel price, why do you want trump to get one?
Just out of spite and hatred?

If you think he deserved it, why on earth do you think he did at the point in time when he got it?

When Obama had diplomatic talks with Iran about there nuclear program, the right wing was up in arms..

now when trump is getting headroom in North Korea, it’s the left wing that is trying to undermine the efforts..

Are any of you guys actually interested in trying to stabilise the world?
Or are you just interested in hating and rooting for your team?

I don’t like trump or his ideas.. but in this instance it actually kind of worked letting a mad man talk to a mad man..
hopefully something good will come of this, and the world Can get a little bit safer :)
 
Donald Trump is the best president the United States could have in the last 20 years. It is improving the American economy. Reduced the risk of Islamic terrorism. Increased employment for black and low-income citizens. It is investing and expanding the military. He made Jerusalem the capital of Israel. It is winning the fight against the fake news in the American media and is now about to conquer the denuclearization of North Korea.

494745648.jpg
 
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bucyou

Member
When Obama had diplomatic talks with Iran about there nuclear program, the right wing was up in arms..


By diplomatic talks, do you mean releasing terrorists back to them or dropping unmarked currency to them in the middle of the night?
 
The issue is when he does something positive, he is tweeting like a child, attacking people who are telling the truth, silencing accusers who describe him doing exactly what he admitted to doing on the Access Hollywood tape, etc. The rage tweeting and lies never stop.

"I never talked about giving teachers guns!" he says, one hour before talking about giving teachers guns...and now he's truly exploring it. He proves the leaks to be true constantly. How can anyone defend this?

If he would stop all the controversial shit he could be liked. People give him credit when he does presidential things. CNN reporters cried and praised him for firing missiles at Syria. Same for when he said he wanted to make real gun change.
 
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LordPezix

Member
They should give the Nobel to Kim if he de-nuclearizes his own country, I mean ultimately it's his own damn decision. All Trump did was have a cock war on twitter.

By diplomatic talks, do you mean releasing terrorists back to them or dropping unmarked currency to them in the middle of the night?

Damn, hold up I want to read this shit. Can you link to an article or something please?
 
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bitbydeath

Member
They should give the Nobel to Kim if he de-nuclearizes his own country, I mean ultimately it's his own damn decision. All Trump did was have a cock war on twitter.

His Twitter side is without a doubt disgusting, but he is risking his own life by traveling over to NK, gotta give him credit for that, it takes some really large balls especially after being threatened by them.
 

Randomizer

Member
It’s an internal Korean thing, don’t know why Trump is getting lumped in with it? He didn’t do anything, it seems the successful joint olympics and diplomacy worked. Trump and his administration didn't even acknowledge the North Koreans at the Olympics or support the decision for them to attend.
 
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HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
I think he should get an Oscar for Best Actor with how easily he convinces some of you over his latest inane boast or promise.
 
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dolabla

Member
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...arization-during-friendly-visit-idUSKBN1H305W

BEIJING/SEOUL (Reuters) - China said on Wednesday North Korean leader Kim Jong Un pledged to denuclearize the Korean peninsula during an historic meeting in Beijing with President Xi Jinping, who promised China would uphold its friendship with its isolated neighbor.

After two days of speculation, China and North Korea both confirmed on Wednesday that Kim had visited Beijing and met Xi during what China’s official Xinhua news agency called an unofficial visit from Sunday to Wednesday.

The trip was Kim’s first known journey abroad since he assumed power in 2011 and is believed by analysts to serve as preparation for upcoming summits with South Korea and the United States.

North Korea’s KCNA news agency made no mention of Kim’s pledge to denuclearize, or his anticipated meeting with U.S. President Donald Trump that is planned for some time in May.

Beijing has traditionally been the closest ally of secretive North Korea, but ties have been frayed by North Korea’s pursuit of nuclear weapons and China’s backing of tough U.N. sanctions in response.

Xinhua cited Kim as telling Xi that the situation on the Korean peninsula is starting to improve because North Korea has taken the initiative to ease tensions and put forward proposals for peace talks.

“It is our consistent stand to be committed to denuclearization on the peninsula, in accordance with the will of late President Kim Il Sung and late General Secretary Kim Jong Il,” Kim Jong Un said, according to Xinhua.

North Korea is willing to talk with the United States and hold a summit between the two countries, he said.

“The issue of denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula can be resolved, if South Korea and the United States respond to our efforts with goodwill, create an atmosphere of peace and stability while taking progressive and synchronous measures for the realization of peace,” Kim said, according to Xinhua.
 
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