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Dota 2 Beta Thread 3: Gunnar Optiks Required [Faster Loading]

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Also early mana costs are obscene compared to lol, which means that you can't afford to do much more than autoattack for long periods of time compared to league where abilities are used frequently for harassment, and I find that makes laning waaaay more fun, because it's a champions abilities that do most to make them feel distinctive.
 
lazorexplosion said:
Also early mana costs are obscene compared to lol, which means that you can't afford to do much more than autoattack for long periods of time compared to league where abilities are used frequently for harassment, and I find that makes laning waaaay more fun, because it's a champions abilities that do most to make them feel distinctive.
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I also like to cast my steroid, wave-clearing ability and gap closer because it makes me feel like i'm playing my champion and not some other almost identical champion.

But seriously, mana cost is high because early game most abilities are huge, most stuns can completely change an engagement so you need to be smart about when using it instead of throwing it out just because.
 
JustinBB7 said:
LoL is a noob friendly hand holding game. Dota 2 is not. Doesn't mean it's clunky. Terrible word to describe it. It's a harder game for sure. Just takes a while to get used to. It's not an easy pick up and play game like LoL. And it never will be thank god.
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You can learn the mechanics of chess in an hour, what a noob friendly hand holding game, certainly not enough depth to it last more than a couple of years what with being that noob friendly.

Being harder to learn or more complicated does not automatically make a game better or more fun to play.
 
could you imagine if drow could instantly turn and slow people chasing her

You can learn the mechanics of chess in an hour, what a noob friendly hand holding game, certainly not enough depth to it last more than a couple of years what with being that noob friendly.

Being harder to learn or more complicated does not automatically make a game better or more fun to play.
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if you can't learn how to move, attack, use moves and shop within an hour i'd be suprised.

there's a difference between learning the mechanics and being a master. chess is a bad example, no one learning chess in an hour is going to beat a chessmaster. the problem with online games is everyone expects to be a master in 15 minutes and throws a tantrum when they get beaten by someone better.
 
lazorexplosion said:
Also early mana costs are obscene compared to lol, which means that you can't afford to do much more than autoattack for long periods of time compared to league where abilities are used frequently for harassment, and I find that makes laning waaaay more fun, because it's a champions abilities that do most to make them feel distinctive.
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There's plenty to do in lane in DotA, so I don't really see how LoL's laning could be more active in any way, and that's leaving aside the fact that right clicks are part of an hero as much as the skills, at least in Dota where animations and damage vary greatly.
 
SamVimes said:
I also like to cast my steroid, wave-clearing ability and gap closer because it makes me feel like i'm playing my champion and not some other almost identical champion.

But seriously, mana cost is high because early game most abilities are huge, most stuns can completely change an engagement so you need to be smart about when using it instead of throwing it out just because.
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While we're trolling, I like to click my non non-skillshot and non-skillshot and non-skillshot right on the enemy champion once every 5 minutes. I'm kidding about all the non-skillshots: a lot of heroes have passives.
 
lazorexplosion said:
You can learn the mechanics of chess in an hour, what a noob friendly hand holding game, certainly not enough depth to it last more than a couple of years what with being that noob friendly.

Being harder to learn or more complicated does not automatically make a game better or more fun to play.
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I don't think you ever had any intention of giving the game a fair chance. You're just here to bash the game.

It is true skills in Dota cost much more mana and your mana does regenerate much slower as well. In return the skills are much more powerful adding diversity to the hero pool. You can't spam your skills and are forced to use them more thoughtfully.
 
I think the difference here is LoL is primarily about clashing with heroes from the beginning, while in DotA creep positioning, and managing what they are attacking and where and when the lane is moving holds much more importance. Being able to deny or pull creep aggro by right clicking enemy heroes already changes so much. You go on heroes when you realize you have an opportunity because they're in a bad position or they used a skill wrong etc.

And yes, single skills generally have the potential for a much bigger impact, thus cooldowns and costs tend to be bigger and managing how much mana & hp regeneration you have with you is of bigger importance.
 
Insured said:
I think the difference here is LoL is primarily about clashing with heroes from the beginning, while in DotA creep positioning, and managing what they are attacking and where and when the lane is moving holds much more importance. Being able to deny or pull creep aggro by right clicking enemy heroes already changes so much. You go on heroes when you realize you have an opportunity because they're in a bad position or they used a skill wrong etc.

And yes, single skills generally have the potential for a much bigger impact, thus cooldowns and costs tend to be bigger and managing how much mana & hp regeneration you have with you is of bigger importance.
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I get that, but I don't like that. If I had to play Cassiopeia or Anivia with mainly just auto attacking they would be pretty boringly samey because it's their abilities that make them unique. That's the early game feel I get with dota 2, yeah I can pick a champion with radically different kits but most of the time I don't feel the difference because of the heavy mana limitations. And the flip side is the big impact abilities feel too big. Like I saw a game and this guy get ganked and he never even got to move. There wasn't even a skillshot he had a chance to avoid.
 
lazorexplosion said:
While we're trolling, I like to click my non non-skillshot and non-skillshot and non-skillshot right on the enemy champion once every 5 minutes. I'm kidding about all the non-skillshots: a lot of heroes have passives.
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I'm not sure what you expected. You came into a thread titled Dota, and complained about it. Most of your issues have actual solutions in-game, too.

As for high-costing skills, I find that a much smarter design than spammable nukes. Not even counting the fact that so many champions have near-carbon copy skills. Distinction and uniqueness are not words I would use for Leagues.

User-friendly was definitely the priority list for Leagues, and that is fine. But you simply lack understanding for Dota. Learn the mechanics, if you truly feel a need to understand this game. If not, go back to Leagues. You won't have to worry about anything with that option.
 
In that case he shouldn't have gotten ganked. If you walk into three or four of the enemy team like a dolt then you deserve to be ganked. What I hated when I played LoL was if I went into the jungle to try and gank someone, he could flash away and now the enemy team knows where we are. We've lost our advantage and got no kill out of it.
 
lazorexplosion said:
I get that, but I don't like that. If I had to play Cassiopeia or Anivia with mainly just auto attacking they would be pretty boringly samey because it's their abilities that make them unique. That's the early game feel I get with dota 2, yeah I can pick a champion with radically different kits but most of the time I don't feel the difference because of the heavy mana limitations. And the flip side is the big impact abilities feel too big. Like I saw a game and this guy get ganked and he never even got to move. There wasn't even a skillshot he had a chance to avoid.
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He was either out of position, against a team with a huge advantage or he just got ganked by a whole team.

1) Don't be out of position. 2) Don't get in huge disadvantage. 3) Check the minimap, if no one is showing you should probably back the fuck off. If you can't your teammates should make something happen in the other sides of the map, if everyone is ganking bot you can probably take a tower on top or mid.
 
lazorexplosion said:
I get that, but I don't like that. If I had to play Cassiopeia or Anivia with mainly just auto attacking they would be pretty boringly samey because it's their abilities that make them unique. That's the early game feel I get with dota 2, yeah I can pick a champion with radically different kits but most of the time I don't feel the difference because of the heavy mana limitations. And the flip side is the big impact abilities feel too big. Like I saw a game and this guy get ganked and he never even got to move. There wasn't even a skillshot he had a chance to avoid.
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But, as I said, hero difference is not just a matter of using skills.
Now, I don't know much about LoL, but if the only way for champions to feel different is to spam the skills, that's pretty bad.
Also, Dota is a bit more unforgiving when it comes to positioning, which is one of the reasons I like it so much. If you are a couple steps too far forward, you'll just die.
 
Lirlond said:
In that case he shouldn't have gotten ganked. If you walk into three or four of the enemy team like a dolt then you deserve to be ganked. What I hated when I played LoL was if I went into the jungle to try and gank someone, he could flash away and now the enemy team knows where we are. We've lost our advantage and got no kill out of it.
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He didn't. He was literally right by his tower with only one hero in vision. Sleep -> Sacred arrow -> dead on the spot with no way to move.
 
lazorexplosion said:
He didn't. He was literally right by his tower with only one hero in vision. Sleep -> Sacred arrow -> dead on the spot with no way to move.
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Well standing near your tower doesn't guarantee that you won't get killed.
Also standing there on your own without any vision of the enemy team is also the users fault.
Same when Pudge is missing from middle, and you've got no vision of the jungle, keep the creep wave between you and the jungle or hug the tower (although tower hugging still doesn't negates the fact that he can hook you right from under there).

This game just has a lot more dept to it than LoL if you ask me....
 
lazorexplosion said:
He didn't. He was literally right by his tower with only one hero in vision. Sleep -> Sacred arrow -> dead on the spot with no way to move.
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It sounds like he has no chance, but that is not true at all. Stand behind a creepwave so arrow will be blocked, have wards so you know when mirana is trying to arrow, dont let bane get to close for nightmare, don't be alone in a lane against bane and mirana lol, get your teammates to instantTP down to you once you see the arrow, mirana and bane are not strong on their won especially once arrow and nightmare are on CD

Also regarding tower:
In LoL - Tower protects you
In Dota - You protect the tower
 
lazorexplosion said:
He didn't. He was literally right by his tower with only one hero in vision. Sleep -> Sacred arrow -> dead on the spot with no way to move.
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Right by as in directly next to it? Those sorts of cheese tactics only work with a few specific heroes. Nightmare doesn't do enough damage, brain sap requires Bane to be pretty close. Arrow can be avoided by creeps, and Nightmare can be taken off via allies.

If he died that close to the tower by just those moves, then it was probably a low level support or a low health hero. If not, then the enemies were higher, as neither bane nor Mirana could sit around spamming right-clicks on a dude under a tower for very long, as both have low base hp pools.
 
lazorexplosion said:
He didn't. He was literally right by his tower with only one hero in vision. Sleep -> Sacred arrow -> dead on the spot with no way to move.
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He died from a single Sacred Arrow? Maybe he should rethink the whole hanging around in range of a disable thing when he's so low.
Actually, you shouldn't hang in range of a disable when there is a followup around at all, unless you have a really specific plan (support, ability to tank it, escape, whatever).
 
Dreamhack stream is live with commentator/anaylst panel.

lazorexplosion said:
You can learn the mechanics of chess in an hour, what a noob friendly hand holding game, certainly not enough depth to it last more than a couple of years what with being that noob friendly.

Being harder to learn or more complicated does not automatically make a game better or more fun to play.
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Chess being easy to pick up and play isn't exactly a mark in its favor: competitively it's been so thoroughly beaten to death by algorithms and rote strategy that you're probably better off never getting any good at the game. You may just enjoy it better that way.

Obviously Dota (or League, for that matter) are no where near as tapped out comparatively, and the shallower they run the worse that problem becomes. Whereas chess traditionally has had to severely limit its depth due to being a middle ages physical board game, we've essentially no limits due to the platform. Depth is good.
 
Match is live in the client, go go.

Edit: And Tobi has no audio. He really needs to test this shit in a test lobby before just jumping into the first game of a major tournament.
 
I can't pop online at the moment. How much is the dreamhack pass? I don't wanna miss any of this :/
 
Des0lar said:
Also regarding tower:
In LoL - Tower protects you
In Dota - You protect the tower
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I'm using that for when my LoL friends move over (c'mon tutorial and quests, hurry up too lazy to teach it myself), so true.

This whole discussion just reminds me how much I love the gankability of Dota as one of my mates I play with quite a bit has decided he wants to play like Rambo and the huge aggression from start to finish has had some great results for us.
 
Yeah as people have said towers alone mid to late game won't protect you, early game though if you don't play too agressive and only go for last hits like any competant player would you shouldou aren't against certain heroes0 be fine even as melee (this is assuming y. Word of advice though if it's the first night time and there's a night stalker, I'd be very careful if he was midly competant. A slight overextend without proper warding of runes etc, and you can be punished pretty hard (tower won't protect you much if he's good and judged the distance correctly). Pudge is also another famous one.
 
Just had a match on Euro servers where 3 people pick hard carries then the 4th goes with Meepo. Despite this they all have 100 wins, I have no idea how this kind of shit happens.
 
lazorexplosion said:
You can learn the mechanics of chess in an hour, what a noob friendly hand holding game, certainly not enough depth to it last more than a couple of years what with being that noob friendly.

Being harder to learn or more complicated does not automatically make a game better or more fun to play.
Click to expand...

Chess as an example lol.

I never said it automatically makes it better or more fun to play. However it is more rewarding.
 
Spirit of Jazz said:
Just had a match on Euro servers where 3 people pick hard carries then the 4th goes with Meepo. Despite this they all have 100 wins, I have no idea how this kind of shit happens.
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Yeah this baffles me as well. And you know what happens a lot then as well? If you commence and pick a support, they bitch at you for losing the match...
I get where you're coming from man :-)

Gotta love the shitty music on the background at dreamhack btw...
 
Yeah, I like having high-mana high-impact skills, it does make the laning phase boring on occasion but a.)it makes the effect skills have on team-fights in the mid to late game that much greater and b.)it gives the laning phase some serious tension
 
Spirit of Jazz said:
Just had a match on Euro servers where 3 people pick hard carries then the 4th goes with Meepo. Despite this they all have 100 wins, I have no idea how this kind of shit happens.
Click to expand...

Why do you torment yourself with solo queuing ?
 
Jeez that dreamhack stream is all kinds of fail right here.
Commercials going on all the time while the stream keeps running.
Mic problems, music playing on the background, etc , etc :-(
 
F!ReW!Re said:
Jeez that dreamhack stream is all kinds of fail right here.
Commercials going on all the time while the stream keeps running.
Mic problems, music playing on the background, etc , etc :-(
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Its hilarious, tho i guess they will fix those problems after some time.

Chen+Pudge combo incoming!
 
Dreamhackdota: The problem with Dota TV is that we have the mics through a mixer, so its not an easy fix but it will get fixed after this game.

Na'Vi with 4 signatures heroes, this will be fun.
 
Spirit of Jazz said:
Just had a match on Euro servers where 3 people pick hard carries then the 4th goes with Meepo. Despite this they all have 100 wins, I have no idea how this kind of shit happens.
Click to expand...

Wins don't really mean anything, unfortunately.

I'm getting placed pretty consistently now in the High matchmaking and have less than 100 wins and I'll be with players who have 300+ games and people with 30 games. Generally speaking, those with more wins are generally the weaker players (obviously, else they would be in very high by now).

Throw in people queuing with friends and how that throws matchmaking for a loop and you can't really tell anything through the win counter alone.

But yeah... avoid solo queue. If you have to solo queue I find the other draft options generally better than all pick.
 
Also, we should probably throw out some good acclimatization heroes for players coming from LoL (familiar points of reference might be helpful):

Spammable Nukes
  • Lich (Sacrifice)
  • Keeper of the Light (Chakra Magic)
  • Lina (cheap nukes)
  • Crystal Maiden (Arcane Aura)
  • Outworld Destroyer (Essence Aura)
  • Death Prophet (Witchcraft)
  • Viper (Poison Attack)
  • Clinkz (Searing Arrows)
  • Phantom Assassin (Stifling Dagger)
  • Necrolyte (Sadist)
  • Undying (Decay)
  • Rubick (provided he steals some of the above actives)

Skillshots
  • Ancient Apparition (Ice Blast)
  • Earthshaker (Fissure)
  • Jakiro (Ice Path)
  • Puck (Illusory Orb)
  • Mirana (Sacred Arrow)
  • Lina (Light Strike Array)
  • Kunkka (Torrent)
  • Clockwerk (Hookshot)
  • Wisp (Spirits)
  • Morphling (Waveform)
  • Windrunner (Shackleshot)
  • Disruptor (Glimpse)
  • Pudge (Hook)
  • Magnus (Shockwave, Skewer)
  • Shadow Fiend (Shadowrazes)
  • Slark (Pounce)
  • Death Prophet (Crypt Swarm)
  • Queen of Pain (Sonic Wave)
  • Invoker (every other Invoked spell, moreorless)
  • Leshrac (Split Earth)
  • Batrider (Flamebreak)
  • Visage (Familiars' stuns)
 
I don't know if we need to list heroes with skillshots since there's quite a few. Personally I think the "lol, dota skills require no aim" argument is a bit of an exaggeration. I do like having spamming heroes suggested for people coming over from LoL.

I mean, to add to your skillshot list:

Keeper of the Light: Illuminate (essentially a short range Ezreal ultimate)
Venomancer: Venomous Gale
Beastmaster: Wild Axes
Dragon Knight: Breathe Fire
Windrunner: Power Shot
Lion/Nyx/Sand King: Earth Spike/Impale/Burrow Strike

etc...
 
aL is doing far better than I would have expected considering Na'Vi's draft. I missed the first bit though - why did they rotate Pudge to top lane? Is Naix a better matchup or were they pulling the mid creep wave?
 
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