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Dragon Ball Super |OT3| Men in pink? How bizarre!

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Vex_

Banned
watch out i'm about to use the shift key

I'd like to preface this with by saying that one of the reasons why I enjoy Cell's design, (In particular, perfect Cell) is because it is a product of editorial telling Toriyama to try harder. The whole reason why Cell transforms in the first place is because Toriyama's editor told him that his first two Cell designs were not cool enough. And you know what? He was right. As much as I like the very inhuman-buglike Imperfect Cell, Perfect Cell is an incredibly good design. I'm not going to comment on Semi-Perfect Cell too much because I feel like the wrong direction was being granted in his design process, but he does share some similarities. Perfect Cell is a result of Toriyama being forced to refine his concept and it is very successful. Toriyama having to redesign and "perfect" his concept gels very well with the whole concept of the villain itself. Usually the transformation device is pretty lazy, but Cell is probably the best example of transformations being used well. Usually editorial interference in most things is fucking annoying but I think this is one of the few cases in which it was needed.

Obviously people have very rational criticisms of the story of the Cell saga (not ones that I really agree with, but rational nonetheless) but I'm talking about Cell from a purely concept art and design perspective.

The wings: The wings work on a conceptual and design level. Conceptually cell is supposed to be a creepy, gross, horrific bug, so he has bug wings. I know you're being glib, but it would betray the entire concept of the character if he had these beautiful angelic detailed wings. I for one, am appreciative of the fact that Cell doesn't have the horrifically cliche anime ~angel wings~. Also, the wings function perfectly on a design level, as they contribute to what I think is one of the coolest silhouettes in Dragonball, which employs an effective use of a triangle motif. This lends the design a really balanced sense of shape harmony, which is something that Toriyama didn't really nail down with Freiza until his final form. Again, S.P. Cell kind of loses track of this, but It's still present:


Of course, inside the form of Cell (in the lines and details instead of the overall shape in silhouette) He uses much rounded shapes that are present in Toriyama's more typical designs. Having a a clear, recognizable silhouette with large, simple shapes allows for interesting detail such as the spots. Also, the silhouette needs to be clear from far away, so in distance shots of Cell fighting or doing something, it reads immediately. Another example of a good use of the triangle motif is the Saiyan Saga, apparent in the Saiyan armor designs and Vegeta and Radditz's hair.

This brings me to your point about the crown. Again, it is a part of the overall triangular motif. It also serves two different design functions: to provide a gestural "flow" of direction that draws attention to Cell's face, and to provide a "rest" area of low detail and large shapes that would contrast with the high detail and small shapes of Cell's face. Luckily, there are sketches that Toriyama has done which perfectly illustrates this, and why having Cell without the crown is less effective:



602cc895ee57c056a9d2a42bfa6c77aa.jpg


And yeah, it does look "weird", but that is the whole point! I could also get into how the color choices and patterns are another cool aspect of Cell's design (and why it's part of the reason Perfect Cell is the best out of the three) but this post is already too long and I wanted to address your two points.

I'm also not claiming that Toriyama was actively thinking about any of this, but I think it's pretty evident that great design is just a part of his instinct. While I enjoy GT, this is why the character designs that are not Toriyama's just look sooooo lame in comparison. You can copy the way he draws faces, hands or poses, but you cannot emulate the man's intuition.


Fuckingg A. This is a godlike post. Cell is such a great villian design wise and just overall a badass character. I'm glad people recognize greatness when they see it.

I give you 5 CELL JRs out of 5 CELL JRs.
 

Astral Dog

Member
17's only chance at relevancy is 18, and since she is basically written out of the show... (she's not even included on the Toei website for the characters..... Yamcha is...)

Also, let's take bets.

Blue hair or purple hair for Trunks in the new FnF footage.

I say purple.

what is this about a new Revival of F thing, or is that in a game?
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I still think the Androids are better villains for the exact same reason Toriyama's editor hated them. They're kids on a power trip who take the role of villain from Dr. Gero. At least they kept the role in one timeline.
 
Toriyama decided to try so hard he invented a character that forced him to draw several dozen black spots every single time.

He could've decided to remove them in the next transformation but nope.
 

NeonZ

Member
Speaking of villians with good designs... You guys think we will ever see Hit again?

We'll probably see him again if that multi-universal tournament actually happens. Although it seems like Toriyama is writing arc by arc again, in spite of doing more set up, so we could end up with the show going in a different direction and that tournament shoved aside.
 
That's time patrol trunks and goten

Actually Time Patrol Trunks is in the first picture but that's not the right Gotenks in the second one. That's Present Trunks fused with Present Goten.

phxlhtG.jpg


This is Time Patrol Trunks fused with Present Goten. Note the sword, slightly different clothes and flatter hair.
 
Actually Time Patrol Trunks is in the first picture but that's not the right Gotenks in the second one. That's Present Trunks fused with Present Goten.

phxlhtG.jpg


This is Time Patrol Trunks fused with Present Goten. Note the sword, slightly different clothes and flatter hair.
Ah thanks for the clarification
 
Goten and trunks matured in gt so other than being cocky like every other Saiyan I dont see what's to doubt

I think to make the character entertaining they would probably have to keep some element of his ridiculous overconfidence.

I never really cared for Gotenks, but it seems like that is central to who he is.
 

Hydrus

Member
What the actual fuck.

tumblr_o9nmwvWchH1ujwg5zo1_500.gif


It's literally the same artsyle and it's still Toei producing both.

Just more time and budget for Heroes.

Then they need to step it the fuck up. Not spend all the budget into one scene. This stuff almost becomes unwatchable after a while. For every scene that looks like that, you have 10 that looks like this.

tumblr_o777ygWu0w1qc9dlro1_540.gif
 
Great! The show's over 20 years old and can still look good. This on the other hand... Even the Pokemon anime that barely anyone watches, look's better then ever. No reason why this shouldn't get the same treatment.
Hey hey hey!! Don't throw shots at Pokemon now. We watch it! Lol
 

Slaythe

Member
Lol, I know. Just saying the animation looks amazing, while getting much less views.

One Piece has more views than pokemon and dbs. And looks as bad as dbs.

Your point ?

Also I hope you do realize the crucial differences when it comes down to animating pokemons and the characters in DBZ.
 

Hydrus

Member
One Piece has more views than pokemon and dbs. And looks as bad as dbs.

Your point ?

Also I hope you do realize the crucial differences when it comes down to animating pokemons and the characters in DBZ.

My point, is make a better product. They are literally just using the Dragon Ball name to get away with spending less money. Same for One piece. Lets face it, if DB wasn't so damn huge, this probably would of been canceled by now.
 

olympia

Member
Great! The show's over 20 years old and can still look good. This on the other hand... Even the Pokemon anime that barely anyone watches, look's better then ever. No reason why this shouldn't get the same treatment.

dragon ball z also had some really lackluster animation at many occasions

here's an easy example


I do agree with the desire for better animation though
 

Slaythe

Member
My point, is make a better product. They are literally just using the Dragon Ball name to get away with spending less money. Same for One piece. Lets face it, if DB wasn't so damn huge, this probably would of been canceled by now.

And may I know what magical metric you're using to claim the show would be cancelled ?

DB wasn't huge anymore in japan. DBS has revitalized all of its marketshares, and made Dragon Ball the second most profitable license of Bandai, and Toei's second biggest original anime.

It is performing great, they have no reason to spend more, remember they are producing weekly episodes with no manga counterpart to base it off, and have no seasonal breaks to help the production.

I'ma stop you right there... somehow they manage to make it look worst..

I'd argue about that. Oda's artstyle makes One Piece's off models shots not that awful in comparison.

Off model DBSuper is vomit inducing.
 

Anth0ny

Member
unfortunately, toei subscribes to the "all the stupid kids are watching this show, lets just crank it out as cheap as possible" ideology for their biggest shows, one piece and dragon ball.


batman tas it ain't.
 

A Pretty Panda

fuckin' called it, man
unfortunately, toei subscribes to the "all the stupid kids are watching this show, lets just crank it out as cheap as possible" ideology for their biggest shows, one piece and dragon ball.


batman tas it ain't.
That's not the mentality they have with the show anymore.
 

Hydrus

Member
Look, all I'm saying is if the Pokemon company is willing to spend the time and money to make there anime look like this:

c68.gif


ymnjen.gif


Then Toei should be able to do it aswell for Mother Fucking Dragon Ball!!
 

Slaythe

Member
Dragon Ball Super isn't cheap to produce at all.

Between all the synergy between the toys and marketing, concurrently to the weekly episodes, all handled by Toei, they are putting a lot of effort into it.

There's only so much they can do with a weekly episode production. Good animators are very limited, they can't be fixing every frame of every episode, or handle whole sequences all the time.

And Batman TAS shined thanks to its writing more than for its animation.

And then it shit the bed and moved the production to really cheap animating studios and it looked like shit. So bad example buddy boy.
 

A Pretty Panda

fuckin' called it, man
I don't know why you're comparing Pokémon now at a point where they're at the end of a region with like years worth of stories concluding with important battles to some slice of life episode of super.

Like how is that a fair comparison
 

Slaythe

Member
Look, all I'm saying is if the Pokemon company is willing to spend the time and money to make there anime look like this:

c68.gif


ymnjen.gif


Then Toei should be able to do it aswell for Mother Fucking Dragon Ball!!



Excessive use of blur to hide generic 3D backgrounds that allow for those crazy camera angles. Pokemon handles very well its use of "banks" (effects/3D elements etc...).

Pokemon also uses 3D pokemons in several scenes then traces over it to give it a 2D look.

It's a legitimate technique (actually used in the recent DBZ movies too) but you also have to realize pokemons use very basic shapes and are much easier to draw, demand much less time.

Drawing a character in DBZ that has somewhat realistic proportions, highly detailed muscles, clothes folds, etc... + coherent body movement, that's kind of a lot more work.
 
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