SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Not sure what I did in this thread to set you off either. But I'm used to you throwing unwarranted hostility my way for some reason.
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Early reactions to Alien: Covenant are in
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
blame space
Banned
We have to knock it off
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
I don't think you can single anyone out specifically for doing this or that with modern movie productions, since a lot of the worst ideas will probably be producer ideas, not writer or director ones (though with Prometheus, Scott was both and that's pretty much were some of the worst offenders in Prometheus come from). On that angle, if Covenant (to go back on topic a bit) really is more of a self-insert for Scott than its own thing, then I can probably get some enjoyment out of it on that. But one half of users calls it worse than Prometheus and the other half calls it better and I have no idea why that split is happening in such a hard degree. I want to trust the 'worse' people more though, all things considered.
But on the topic of Scott's work,what everyone is ignoring is that he also produces things that would otherwise probably not get made. I mean, Braindead, a show that should now really be considered prophetic, would really not get made if Scott hadn't been tied to it.
Same on your old nickname btw.
Crediting for movies and payment is weird, so I'm pretty sure he actually couldn't do that for a full rewrite as per the rules. Script doctor with money upfront, yes, but not in an active rewrite.
Which doesn't really take away the fact that he isn't or wasn't a good writer, but he also got stuck with a hot potato a few times more than you would expect.
Cowboys and Aliens was in development hell for a long ass time, for instance.
But on the topic of Scott's work,what everyone is ignoring is that he also produces things that would otherwise probably not get made. I mean, Braindead, a show that should now really be considered prophetic, would really not get made if Scott hadn't been tied to it.
Same on your old nickname btw.
Crediting for movies and payment is weird, so I'm pretty sure he actually couldn't do that for a full rewrite as per the rules. Script doctor with money upfront, yes, but not in an active rewrite.
Which doesn't really take away the fact that he isn't or wasn't a good writer, but he also got stuck with a hot potato a few times more than you would expect.
Cowboys and Aliens was in development hell for a long ass time, for instance.
Warm Machine
Member
Bought my ticket. Seeing it on Friday. Fingers crossed I like it.
ah ok, that makes sense
I didn't realise credits and payment were tied to each other, outside of adding to your resume I figured crediting didn't matter that much especially on contributor/rewriting duties
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Script doctors will often get a ridiculous payday for forgoing any writing credit.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
This film isn't out in the USA yet? No wonder everyone jumped on me for really disliking it -- most of you haven't yet seen it.
Be prepared for more Aliens 3 than Alien or Aliens and you might like it. I hoped for Alien and it is absolutely nothing like it. You might end up enjoying the film with the right mindset. I sure wish I had some perspective before watching it. I rarely, if ever, do film previews so I had high hopes and disappointed myself.
Also, that explains why the dude next to me was live streaming it via his phone. He used the front facing camera, which absolutely baffled me. I told him to fuck off because his phone screen was on and it distracted me. He just switched areas in the theater since it was a 7 am showing and no one was there. I would have dimed him out to the theater but I'm not the MPAA's enforcer. Sounds like their problem.
Be prepared for more Aliens 3 than Alien or Aliens and you might like it. I hoped for Alien and it is absolutely nothing like it. You might end up enjoying the film with the right mindset. I sure wish I had some perspective before watching it. I rarely, if ever, do film previews so I had high hopes and disappointed myself.
Also, that explains why the dude next to me was live streaming it via his phone. He used the front facing camera, which absolutely baffled me. I told him to fuck off because his phone screen was on and it distracted me. He just switched areas in the theater since it was a 7 am showing and no one was there. I would have dimed him out to the theater but I'm not the MPAA's enforcer. Sounds like their problem.
Isn't The Leftovers an example of him successfully helping Tom Perrotta tell his stories (as the show is an adaptation of his novels)?
I don't watch the show (only got 3 episodes in before feeling major shades of Lost even before knowing the Lindelof connection) but my understanding is that Perrotta is pretty hands-on in making sure that his adaption is done well.
Fallout-NL
Member
Yeah, that seems like something only a total rookie would do, and even then...
But whatever, Lindelof's got his name on a bunch of shit and I don't. So what do I know?
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
I don't know, but I wouldn't claim to know anything - lest you offend Bobby with your arrogance and force him to trawl through a four-year old thread to try and shame you down to size for your impudence.
I think I'm just going to avoid this film altogether at the cinema and catch it on Blu Ray at Xmas. I fucking hated Prometheus and this, I'm repeatedly told, is just more of then same.
I'm too busy at the moment to waste two hours plus on something like this. I'm drawing a line in the sand. No more Sir Ridley, no more.
Fixed.
I'm too busy at the moment to waste two hours plus on something like this. I'm drawing a line in the sand. No more Sir Ridley, no more.
Fixed.
Fallout-NL
Member
I fear that's probably true.
This is a fascinating mix-up, considering they also play the same character in the different versions of Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
BeforeU
Oft hope is born when all is forlorn.
If he had latest phone, that would still be better than potato quality leaks we see on GAF
If you fucking hated Prometheus don't waste your time with this. It is absolutely Prometheus 2. Lol. I'm not even sure if the blu-ray will be worth your time, but I guess sometimes, we just have to know for sure how bad something is!
Screeners be everywhere! The screener I went to in the US had THREE theaters set-up for this.
This is Prometheus 2 with not AS stupid action but pretty close to it, especially towards the end. Ignore all Xenomorph biology because Ridley Scott too.
HA. What little I've already heard SPOILER
Adam created the alien eggs?! Whaaa
With the Blu Ray etc also to be avoided I suppose I now (begrudgingly) have an appointment to halfheartedly watch this on a Tuesday afternoon three years from now, on Netflix, when I'm off work with a bad cold.
A worrying number of negative reviews...however..I like Prometheus. Like liked it quite a bit, actually.
I mean if I were to rate it'd be Aliens > Alien > Prometheus > Aliens: Resurrection > Aliens 3. Would I like it if I liked Prometheus? It vaguely sounds like it does, so anybody with a positive opinion on this want to chime in?
I'm planning on getting IMAX tickets for the weekend show.
I mean if I were to rate it'd be Aliens > Alien > Prometheus > Aliens: Resurrection > Aliens 3. Would I like it if I liked Prometheus? It vaguely sounds like it does, so anybody with a positive opinion on this want to chime in?
I'm planning on getting IMAX tickets for the weekend show.
I couldn't stand the leftovers for the most part. Even gave it a full season to see if it got any better. It does not. And it's classic mysterious Lindelof bullshit.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
I didn't mind Prometheus but that's because I didn't expect it to be like Alien. You'll enjoy Covenant if you liked Prometheus and expect Covenant to be Prometheus 2.
Dude, you need to give it another look. It's not only by far the best thing Lindelof has ever done, it's also one of the best new shows in the past decade. It's pure, unbridled Lindelof, and all the pros and cons that come with that, but in it's most pure form without crumbling under the weight of a 22 episode per year network television model. I know you didn't like S1 and said you quit early in S2. I mean, maybe there's a chance that the show just isn't for you, and fair enough, but I think you should at least revisit and finish S2 - its one of the finest seasons of television in recent memory. Lindelof straight up killing it (and avoiding all the pitfalls he fell into with Lost) on The Leftovers.
Oh man, this was the first time I saw the beauty of Lindelof's draft. This guy has a thing for unnecessary explanations and information:
Why would you even write 'Jesus christ almighty' in your script? Why does it seem like Lindelof himself is shocked by what's happening in his own script? And 'something we will one day come to know as...', who is 'we'? Why not just write 'the Troglybyte'?
I thought the film was very poor but if you liked Prometheus then there's every chance you'll like this.
Discotheque
Banned
I dislike every movie Lindelof has written. Mans is literally 0 for 5 for me. But yeah I'm a big fan of leftovers too
One of its strongest elements is keeping the clarification of the mystery elusive. There's only 3 episodes left and I'm gonna be pretty bummed out if he decides to start giving us solutions now. The character journey and their emotional responses (and incessant need to believe in something) is what made the show what it is.
One of its strongest elements is keeping the clarification of the mystery elusive. There's only 3 episodes left and I'm gonna be pretty bummed out if he decides to start giving us solutions now. The character journey and their emotional responses (and incessant need to believe in something) is what made the show what it is.
It was that episode early into S2 that goes back to the wife character from S1 that did me in, lol.
You know what, I might try and go back to S2, maybe I can enjoy it on some level.
Best Lindelofism I read was him describing a scene like "FUCK, THAT'S HOT!" I think Busty might be correct, he writes this way for barely functioning execs. Although I don't understand the point of doing this on a rewrite for Ridley Scott.
Xisiqomelir
Member
Just got back from the theatre, wonderful movie! 9.3/10, probably a little overenthused and will dock a 0.1 or so later.
I really don't know how to partial these, so please click on it at your own risk if you haven't seen the movie yet.
I really don't know how to partial these, so please click on it at your own risk if you haven't seen the movie yet.
+A bad guy wins ending is not always the original and brave thing to do, but is certainly always one that the suits and creative-by-committee vermin in the studios would find dreadful and horrifying. Fuck those people and good on you Ridley!
+To me, Michael Fassbender has always had the potential to be a decent actor, and I'm happy to see his good movie count double to two. His ending scene performance was creepy as fuck
+I enjoyed the settings and backdrops a lot in this, and the ship design was also pretty nice.
+The pinkomorph in this was literally worlds above the babbylien in Resurrection.
-There's a lot of credulity-straining things in this film, but the one that I just had to mentally compartmentalize and forcibly ignore is how Fassbender.0 downgrades his bioweapon from a volatile, versatile vapour into a clunky egg->facehugger->"I hope we catch a moron" infection vector.
Having briefly skimmed the thread, I can get where the "Should've been Prometheus 2" crowd are coming from, but sadly that's not going to happen. Enjoy the movie you do have.
I guess Aliens will become like First Blood pt 2 for the franchise, a brief shimmering glimpse of Cameron. Having seen what Hollywood was butchering the Weyland-Yutani/Colonial Marineverse into, I think that's probably actually for the best.
+To me, Michael Fassbender has always had the potential to be a decent actor, and I'm happy to see his good movie count double to two. His ending scene performance was creepy as fuck
+I enjoyed the settings and backdrops a lot in this, and the ship design was also pretty nice.
+The pinkomorph in this was literally worlds above the babbylien in Resurrection.
-There's a lot of credulity-straining things in this film, but the one that I just had to mentally compartmentalize and forcibly ignore is how Fassbender.0 downgrades his bioweapon from a volatile, versatile vapour into a clunky egg->facehugger->"I hope we catch a moron" infection vector.
Having briefly skimmed the thread, I can get where the "Should've been Prometheus 2" crowd are coming from, but sadly that's not going to happen. Enjoy the movie you do have.
I guess Aliens will become like First Blood pt 2 for the franchise, a brief shimmering glimpse of Cameron. Having seen what Hollywood was butchering the Weyland-Yutani/Colonial Marineverse into, I think that's probably actually for the best.
Now I want to read his script for the most recent episode of The Leftovers, which was maybe the most wild episode of the entire series.
Yep. It's kinda like how in the end of Lost, the "it's all about the characters!" being trotted out as a defense to the plot bungling wasn't really a valid defense, as the show was so heavily wrapped up in its mysteries and plot points for six whole seasons. It was a complete cop out to say "it was really all about the characters all along!". And I loved Lost, a lot. But the ball was dropped big time in regards to offering a satisfying story conclusion.
The Leftovers, probably in large part due to Lindelof's experience and the backlash from Lost, is right out of the gate presented as a character piece, with no intentions of ever delving into the answers to the mysteries. The departure is simply a framework whereby the characters' various journeys/mental states are derived from as a basis to propel the character arcs, rather than being a JJ Abrams kind of puzzle box we'll-dole-out-the-answers-as-time-passes kind of affair. In many ways, it's the anti-Lost. In other ways, it's a streamlined distillation of everything that was good in Lost.
Also, The Leftovers has a hell of a cast bringing the characters to life. Justin Theroux went from being this guy I always saw in either bit parts or the occasional Lynch movie, to being the most compelling leading man I've seen in a long time. And Carrie Coon slays it in every situation.
(btw my GF and I just started watching last month. We are almost caught up - we just watched S3 Ep. 2 last night. We'll be caught up in time to watch S3. Ep. 6 live this weekend......unless it airs at the same time as Twin Peaks, in which case it'll have to wait til Monday)
Lindelof's style is hilarious, he did this same thing in Lost too, where stage directions were written like, "And now they're FUCKING RUNNING. Shit! It's the MONSTER!! RUN for your lives, GODDAMMIT!" He writes all his screenplays/teleplays like comic book scripts. The CAPS are the film/tv equivalent of bolding every other word in a comic.
I've done a lot of script writing and coverage too, and I agree with Sculli's critique but think Busty also hit the nail on the head that Lindelof (and for that matter, many established writers) are writing for producer and executive audiences who need this shit delivered to them like that. For instance, I don't think James Mangold is a bad writer. I do think his note in the beginning of the Logan script about "and here's how real and violent our movie is going to be!" is a lame piece of writing...but I also know he knows exactly who he's writing for with that.
Or in this case, from Prometheus:
The "something we will one day come to know as..." bit is written for Ridley and other producers/execs to signal that this is a Alien prequel and here's an Alien thing that, without the "we will one day know this as", they might not know was an Alien thing. Which is important if your producers and other bosses are expecting an Alien prequel and need it spelled out for them that that's what they're getting in this script.
I've done a lot of script writing and coverage too, and I agree with Sculli's critique but think Busty also hit the nail on the head that Lindelof (and for that matter, many established writers) are writing for producer and executive audiences who need this shit delivered to them like that. For instance, I don't think James Mangold is a bad writer. I do think his note in the beginning of the Logan script about "and here's how real and violent our movie is going to be!" is a lame piece of writing...but I also know he knows exactly who he's writing for with that.
Or in this case, from Prometheus:
CloudWolf said:
The "something we will one day come to know as..." bit is written for Ridley and other producers/execs to signal that this is a Alien prequel and here's an Alien thing that, without the "we will one day know this as", they might not know was an Alien thing. Which is important if your producers and other bosses are expecting an Alien prequel and need it spelled out for them that that's what they're getting in this script.
wesleyshark
Banned
David is one of the best characters in the entire franchise and I'm glad that he prevailed at the end of this. Fassbender's performance is absolutely fascinating.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Because he too is a barely functioning exec.
And now this thread is the one linked from 5 years ago. We've achieved inception, everyone. Congrats.
Also, to save the avalanche of black bars: there's an official thread/spoiler thread for the film.
QuantumZebra
Member
Prometheus wasn't that great compared to previous Alien and Ridley Scott works...
Prometheus is Godfather + Blade Runner quality when compared to current takes on old flicks - like Jurassic World.
err, Prometheus is really only slightly better than Jurassic World. It's a mediocre movie that dips into bad movie territory, while JW is more of a bad movie that occasionally dips up into mediocrity.
QuantumZebra
Member
I see your point. But, Jurassic World made Chris Pratt an unfunny and boring protagonist. How is that even possible?
At least Prometheus had great visuals and an intriguing story
(the engineers, and the implication the goo was used to seed Earth).
Bobby Roberts
Banned
That was the story of Prometheus, really.
I feel like this is going to go over better with people who don't really give a fuck about whatever "mythology" has been glued onto these films. For people who want to watch a movie with the classic Alien in it, and that's all it's ever been, the weird dickbeast monster from the movies - this is probably gonna play just fine.
The fact that it's ratcheted down a lot of its philosophy (or at least poured all of it into David), is gonna help it, I think. It's aimed more at being "scary" than anything else.
SuperEpicMan
Banned
I went to see this last night, and I have to say I was pretty disappointed with it. I will probably want to watch it again and mull over it to say for sure (sometimes I have rewatched films and found them much better the second time around), but for now I felt it was really weak.
For the record I quite liked Prometheus, whilst the story and characters were often seen as flawed when scrutinised, I felt the movie still delivered a lot to like. The visuals were fantastic, the premise was intriguing and draws you in quite quickly, David was fascinating and a lot of the movie delivered a sense of mystery. The film from start to finish attempts to be grandiose and philosophical, and whilst it often falls short of delivering this, it at least asks some interesting questions, and gives the views some interesting ideas to think about (namely the whole Engineer - Human - David relationship). So whilst it isn't always successful, I at least appreciated what it tried to achieve, and some of the interesting things it did have to say. I also loved the way the movie tried to tear away from being an Alien film, instead trying to cover new ground by pushing the series mythology outward, opposed to retreading worn out areas. The ending also had me quite excited and intrigued, as it teased a sequel which seemed to head in a direction I could not anticipate, in my head I was thinking "Where are they going?, What kind of place awaits them?, How will the movie handle just having 2 characters?" and so on, so I couldn't wait to see where they took that initial set up.
So coming to Alien: Covenant I expected to really love it, only to come away from it disappointed, I actually think Prometheus was a better film. HEAVY SPOILERS -
Overall I enjoyed it, but I can't help but see the film as squandered potential. The set up from Prometheus was squandered, the themes and any philosophy just felt really half assed, the film is devoid of significant tension, and whilst there are a few good gruesome horror moments much of it is comprised of things we have seen time and again. The film tries to course correct the series back into full on Alien prequel mode, so that it can cover the same ground as before, whilst removing any shred of mystery that remained with the Aliens. I came out of the theatre thinking how it is not really a movie I watch again, which just feels crazy as I am a huge fan of the series in general. I will eventually watch it again, if only to try and solidify my thoughts on it.
For the record I quite liked Prometheus, whilst the story and characters were often seen as flawed when scrutinised, I felt the movie still delivered a lot to like. The visuals were fantastic, the premise was intriguing and draws you in quite quickly, David was fascinating and a lot of the movie delivered a sense of mystery. The film from start to finish attempts to be grandiose and philosophical, and whilst it often falls short of delivering this, it at least asks some interesting questions, and gives the views some interesting ideas to think about (namely the whole Engineer - Human - David relationship). So whilst it isn't always successful, I at least appreciated what it tried to achieve, and some of the interesting things it did have to say. I also loved the way the movie tried to tear away from being an Alien film, instead trying to cover new ground by pushing the series mythology outward, opposed to retreading worn out areas. The ending also had me quite excited and intrigued, as it teased a sequel which seemed to head in a direction I could not anticipate, in my head I was thinking "Where are they going?, What kind of place awaits them?, How will the movie handle just having 2 characters?" and so on, so I couldn't wait to see where they took that initial set up.
So coming to Alien: Covenant I expected to really love it, only to come away from it disappointed, I actually think Prometheus was a better film. HEAVY SPOILERS -
Right of the bat, I found the set up and premise of the movie to be somewhat slow, whilst the initial scene with David and Weyland was somewhat interesting, the opening seems to just exist to push the story forward towards the planet. I kinda got the impression they tried wanted to replicate the same sort of cold opening Alien had, but in this it just comes across as somewhat dull. In Alien it works because the movie has a sense of mystery and the audience do not quite know what to expect, this allows the movie to slowly build tension and dread, right through to the end. In Covenant, we know what to expect so the beginning just kinda fell flat for me.
In terms of characters, I feel they were arguably weaker than those in Prometheus. Whilst I quite liked Katherine Waterston's and Danny McBrides performances, I felt like I never really got to know them as characters. Billy Crudup's character seemed to show the promise of being interesting and 3 dimensional, but the movie doesn't really spend the time to take his character anywhere other than face hugger chow. Whilst Michael Fassbender gave great performances as Walter and David, I felt Walter wasn't particularly interesting due to the nature of his character (a less flawed version of David), and really only seemed to exist to service the scenes with David. David whilst still quite compelling, seemed a lot less interesting this time around. Outside a few scenes which still show him to be a bit of an enigma (such as the one where he releases the virus on the engineers), he for the most part seems predictable this time around. The rest of the characters just seem to exist to be munched on.
With regards to the aliens, they were just there to provide gore and horror. Whilst there were a couple of good scenes, such the back bursting scene, and the scene where the neomorph attacks the woman in the cave. They didn't really do anything new or surprising with them, they almost never provide much in the way of tension, and they certainly are no longer 'alien'. They feel tired and overdone at this point, without an ounce of what made them interesting in the first place. The movie doesn't even really let you be surprised by them any more, for example, I quite liked the scene where the neomorph confronts the woman in the cave before biting her head off, but the audience sees it coming because the film telegraphs it earlier. I also quite liked the way they showed the world from the perspective of an alien, but again, it squanders the idea and doesn't do anything interesting with it.
Visually the film seems like a step down from Ridley Scott's previous movies. Whilst there are occasionally some inventive scenes such as the scene when the airlock opens, and some of the space sections at the start, the rest of it feels pretty weak. This was one area in particular which I thought was a safe bet, so I was quite surprised to see this take such as large step down. With regards to the film score, I did quite like the use of the original soundtrack, though I feel they relied maybe a bit too heavily on it, which kinda strips the movies soundtrack of its own identity.
Overall I enjoyed it, but I can't help but see the film as squandered potential. The set up from Prometheus was squandered, the themes and any philosophy just felt really half assed, the film is devoid of significant tension, and whilst there are a few good gruesome horror moments much of it is comprised of things we have seen time and again. The film tries to course correct the series back into full on Alien prequel mode, so that it can cover the same ground as before, whilst removing any shred of mystery that remained with the Aliens. I came out of the theatre thinking how it is not really a movie I watch again, which just feels crazy as I am a huge fan of the series in general. I will eventually watch it again, if only to try and solidify my thoughts on it.
This is what a lot of the pre-release hype said and, maybe this is just my unflappable constitution talking, I really just found the whole thing devoid of tension.
andythinkpad
Member
Pretty much. Although s2 is better than s1. I think s3 is going back to s1 territory.
Discotheque
Banned
it really does remind me of Lost if that show didn't string viewers along with the island mysteries.
for instance every season's Matt episode reminds me of those really good ones we got that centered on Locke in Lost. wait til you get to Season 3's Matt Episode (5), its so good.
BrettHeazy
Member
I felt this too, the jumpscares just didn't get me.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I feel like the opening hour wasn't bad, and the first encounters on the planet weren't really "scary," but were at least pretty decently staged & shot to increase pressure.
It doesn't really get back to that level of "scary" for the rest of the movie though, you're right.
Anyway, my review just went live, so there you go!
Fancy Clown
Member
Nice review Robby Boberts. I like the imagery you ended with. I guess the series has earned the right to do a little tail sucking considering since it's inception each entry has been about being as radically different from the previous entry as possible.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Thanks!
Insane Metal
Gold Member
RT is now at 77% and 91% among top critics... hahah
Yes, it's reviewing nicely there, here, not so much.
It's not only here. The only place I've been where people are somewhat enthousiastic is avpgalaxy.
For a movie that killed all the enthousiasm and hopes I placed in these news movies I find it a bit surprising it scores so well.
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