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[Bobby Roberts]

The hypotheticals people are using in this thread are also pretty absurd and funny if you take the time to imagine them fully. There's a ton of Chuck Jones level gags being proposed on behalf of people both for and against the concept of "self-defense by way of kicking a pug in the head."

Like, the legitimate, factual premise is in and of itself pretty depressing/absurd. No need to start bringing up kamikaze squirrels, burning buildings, and hapless babies coming across Joe Pesci from Goodfellas jogging in the park.

 

[DoktorEvil]

I'll be the judge of this =p

The pug is dead, and the man doesn't have a bite. Whether he was justified or not, his response was disproportionate to the threat.

He owes the woman for the value of the dog and the cost of cremation.

I don't like viewing animals as property -- to me they clearly have minds and feelings -- but the law treats them as chattel, and it is the best way to objectively deal with this sort of situation.

I agree, Judge.

Additionally, there could've been merit for a misdemeanor charge to incur a fine or 1 year imprisonment had the dog received an autopsy.

 

[out0v0rder]

sometimes you don't have enough time to properly identify what specific breed of dog is running towards you and whether or not you should kick or pet it. This also assumes that you can identify every dog breed and know whether they are dangerous or not. not everyone knows what type of dog is which. usually ugly dog = pitbull

 

[muu]

Ran across this gem while I was looking for cases where joggers have been seriously injured by little mutts in MUPs. Unrelated to this case, but wow.

As far as the incident goes, if we consider physics a small dog sprinting towards a jogger that was running briskly himself, that's a lot of momentum that'd add to the force of even a light kick. It'd be like sprinting head on to a van doing 10, 15mph -- do it wrong and you'll be dead. Unless the jogger has a history of hating animals and abusing them, I seriously can't see a jogger winding up and going for the kill as the dog is running back to his owner.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Your child and dog are stuck in your house in a bad fire. You could only choose one or the other to save. I dare you to choose your dog.

Yes there's an inbetween. I can treat a pet with respect and dignity and not consider it a disposable meat bag, but in no way will it be as important as my child.

This is a really dumb scenario that someone already posed. It implies that just because something isn't quite as important as something else, that that latter thing doesn't deserve the same rights as the former. Or that someone can't still have a lot of emotion for that latter thing.

Your house is burning down. You can only save your wife or your child. If you save your child, is that because your wife isn't important to you and isn't a part of your family? Does this mean you wouldn't care if someone killed your wife just because you care more about your child?

 

[anaron]

sometimes you don't have enough time to properly identify what specific breed of dog is running towards you and whether or not you should kick or pet it. This also assumes that you can identify every dog breed and know whether they are dangerous or not. not everyone knows what type of dog is which. usually ugly dog = pitbull

the NYT article says the jogger kicked it because he had been previously bitten by a small dog and kept on jogging after the fact

The guy knew it was a dog, didn't give a shit and kicked it and kept on going

 

[Shamrock7r]

Your child and dog are stuck in your house in a bad fire. You could only choose one or the other to save. I dare you to choose your dog.

Yes there's an inbetween. I can treat a pet with respect and dignity and not consider it a disposable meat bag, but in no way will it be as important as my child.

I am so confused. What exactly is this "a dog or a child in a fire" hypothetical arguing. Seriously, how does it relate to the conversation?

 

[jonnyp]

That dude should be glad I didn't witness that because I'd beat him to a pulp

 

[Flo_Evans]

This is a really dumb scenario that someone already posed. It implies that just because something isn't quite as important as something else, that that latter thing doesn't deserve the same rights as the former. Or that someone can't still have a lot of emotion for that latter thing.

Your house is burning down. You can only save your wife or your child. If you save your child, is that because your wife isn't important to you and isn't a part of your family? Does this mean you wouldn't care if someone killed your wife just because you care more about your child?

I'm upset whenever someone damages my property. Doesn't mean I am justified in assaulting them.

 

[Wazzy]

sometimes you don't have enough time to properly identify what specific breed of dog is running towards you and whether or not you should kick or pet it. This also assumes that you can identify every dog breed and know whether they are dangerous or not. not everyone knows what type of dog is which. usually ugly dog = pitbull

Everyone can identify size, though. If your reaction is to kick a pug sized dog you're fucked up.

 

[egruntz]

I have a few thoughts...

Reading the first few pages was hard.

The responsibility is on the owner. Leash the dog.

Jogger realistically could have and should have shown restraint. Unsure if there's any legal obligation in that though.

Poor dog.

 

[anaron]

Everyone can identify size, though. If your reaction is to kick a pug sized dog you're fucked up.

yup

based on this thread pugs are clearly equivalent to grizzly bears tho

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I'm upset whenever someone damages my property. Doesn't mean I am justified in assaulting them.

Good thing the lady whose dog died didn't assault anyone then. I don't see what this has to do with the point I was making.

 

[out0v0rder]

Everyone can identify size, though. If your reaction is to kick a pug sized dog you're fucked up.

not everyone has experience with dogs and knows whether or not they are dangerous. small things can be dangerous, or at least seem dangerous if you are startled while jogging and your adrenaline starts to pump a little.

 

[RM8]

I'm glad my dog was always leashed while out for a walk. He could have approached someone hastily at some point, and apparently many people would have been a-ok with fiercely kicking him.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

not everyone has experience with dogs and knows whether or not they are dangerous. small things can be dangerous, or at least seem dangerous if you are startled while jogging and your adrenaline starts to pump a little.

As stated before, if you look at a waddling ball of pudge and your first thought it DANGER...you're an idiot.

 

[anaron]

not everyone has experience with dogs and knows whether or not they are dangerous. small things can be dangerous, or at least seem dangerous if you are startled while jogging and your adrenaline starts to pump a little.

he wasn't startled though. he saw a little dog running towards him and because he had been previously bitten by a small dog, kicked the one in front of him because she was there, despite not attacking him.

 

[BomberMouse]

Dog should have been on a leash.

Jogger was an asshole and overreacted, whether on purpose or not is not the case.

 

[Always-honest]

and what about in the event that a dog manages to get loose from the owner?

it's enlightening to know that while they panic to get their dog back, from this thread, people are entirely allowed to kick it with enough force to kill because "it's off the leash" despite not attacking.

Huh? Who says that i think you can just kick a dog?..
Ofcourse you don't kick dogs for no reason.

 

[Syriel]

And if your instinct is to kick an animal to death, you're functionally retarded.

Who hasn't run in to stray dogs before? Who's first reaction is 'kick the shit out of it'?

I've run in to plenty of stray dogs or ones without owners before. Never kicked one. Never killed one.

Lead a couple back to an owner though!

No one in this thread has said that.

And the jogger in the story isn't even accused of doing that.

The one thing both sides agree on is that it was a single action. According to the latest story posted (which is NYDN, so sensationalism is expected), the jogger didn't even realize that his kick (which he described as a tap to get it away) had injured the dog, let alone killed it, until the woman ran after him.

Never mind that this was on the grounds of an elementary school (next to a forested area). Off leash dogs aren't allowed on the school grounds and there are plenty of small animals (including coyotes) that live in those woods.

 

[Trouble]

Who's so scared of a derpy little pug they got to kick it?

Blah blah leash blah blah whatever. Would people defend a cop punching a kid because their parents didn't have them wearing their seatbelt?

 

[Shamrock7r]

No one in this thread has said that.

And the jogger in the story isn't even accused of doing that.

The one thing both sides agree on is that it was a single action. According to the latest story posted (which is NYDN, so sensationalism is expected), the jogger didn't even realize that his kick (which he described as a tap to get it away) had injured the dog, let alone killed it, until the woman ran after him.

Never mind that this was on the grounds of an elementary school (next to a forested area). Off leash dogs aren't allowed on the school grounds and there are plenty of small animals (including coyotes) that live in those woods.

which is complete bullshit

 

[3phemeral]

Sad to see such a small dog suffer such a horrible fate from someone who likely overreacted but still, leash your pets! Even if they're tiny! Seems she was "just about to" coincidentally after it ran away.

You can't expect everyone to be able to read a dog's temperament. If they've been bitten before, they probably don't want to be bitten again and will likely be defensive if they spot a dog without an owner. Even if it has a collar, that doesn't mean much as I've been bitten by a neighbor's dog that's run ahead of their owner/escaped from their gated home/allowed to wander the neighborhood.

His actions were grossly disproportionate in defending himself, but if it were a larger animal capable of outrunning him? What should he have done?

 

[Jito]

sometimes you don't have enough time to properly identify what specific breed of dog is running towards you and whether or not you should kick or pet it. This also assumes that you can identify every dog breed and know whether they are dangerous or not. not everyone knows what type of dog is which. usually ugly dog = pitbull

How about you just don't kick any dogs, regardless of their size, breed etc. ?

 

[Fuchsdh]

While I think this guy is reprehensible and should have the book thrown at him, I don't understand the mindset of these dog owners who are letting their pets run around off leashes. Between the coyotes, the unstable ground and other people walking their dogs, it's just asking for trouble. A friend of mine watched someone's shitzu basically get mauled by a playful Shiba Inu in the Sausalito hills because they thought it would be a good idea to let their dogs run around off leash because it's an open area and "surely I must be the only ones here, right?"

Keep your dogs on their leash people, geeze.



Assault. Lovely.

Some people have entitlement complexes when it comes to their pets. "Oh he's so well trained he won't do anything bad." "Picking up his shit is below me." "Oh, why can't he pee on your boxwoods?" It generally irks me—a pet is still an animal, and they can be unpredictable. You're responsible for your pets. If you can't or won't control them, you shouldn't have them.

 

[Rest]

I don't even understand why he'd do anything to the dog, it's a tiny little pug. It can't do anything to a person at all.

 

[Wazzy]

Sad to see such a small dog suffer such a horrible fate from someone who likely overreacted but still, leash your pets! Even if they're tiny! Seems she was "just about to" coincidentally after it ran away.

You can't expect everyone to be able to read a dog's temperament. If they've been bitten before, they probably don't want to be bitten again and will likely be defensive if they spot a dog without an owner. Even if it has a collar, that doesn't mean much as I've been bitten by a neighbor's dog that's run ahead of their owner/escaped from their gated home/allowed to wander the neighborhood.

His actions were grossly disproportionate in defending himself, but if it were a larger animal capable of outrunning him? What should he have done?

A large dog charging at you is a situation where I could be more empathic to this situation happening.

And the leash comments are getting ridiculous. We know dogs should be leashed but sometimes things can happen. My dog once got her collar off and started running around while I had to try and grab her.

 

[Shamrock7r]

A large dog charging at you is a situation where I could be more empathic to this situation happening.

And the leash comments are getting ridiculous. We know dogs should be leashed but sometimes things can happen. My dog once got her collar off and started running around while I had to try and grab her.

Yea. It would be interesting to see compare the posts of users here to their posts in recent cop threads.

 

[Ray Wonder]

What is this magical amount "hard enough to kill it"? I see people using it like it's a set amount that is assumed to be very hard. There's no specific amount. It may have been a jogging speed kick to the wrong spot that killed the dog.

Assume It’s Aggressive. The first rule is to NEVER assume the dog is friendly. Don’t try to read its signals and definitely do not think it’s friendly because its wagging is tail (see this article for why).
Read more at http://theilovedogssite.com/what-to-do-when-an-off-leash-dog-charges-your-dog/#8jzrWYHH8ILMmslg.99

A small dog bit [the jogger] back in 2012

They also say that he was afraid. For reasons he knows first hand because he was bitten. It's almost irrelevant how big the dog was, or what breed it was. He was bitten in the past by a tiny dog. He doesn't want to be bitten again.

I don't condone killing dogs, in fact I loved my dog like family when I had her. If this happened to my dog, I would be extremely angry with the guy. However, I do condone defending yourself from a dog if you feel threatened. If the guy felt threatened, he has a right to defend himself. No matter how ridiculous that sounds to any one of us because it was a pug.

It's clear that this lady loves her pugs. They're adorable, and it's absolutely awful that this happened. Yet, she has to be more responsible as a dog owner. I would never let my dog off a leash when I wasn't in a dog park. It's just common sense. I want to protect my dogs from strangers like this, just as much as I want to keep her out of harms way from herself (running into traffic etc.)

Also, I want to let it be known. All this above. Speculation. None of us know. I don't know if the guy was just an asshole or not. It's just best practice to look at both sides with an unbiased mindset.

 

[anaron]

Huh? Who says that i think you can just kick a dog?..
Ofcourse you don't kick dogs for no reason.

you agreed with someone saying if you don't want trouble, have your dog on a leash as if nothing could have prevented a person kicking a dog that wasn't even harming them

 

[BennyBlanco]

probably because it's a pug.

although honestly, considering how fucking dumb they are in general, how do you not leash your pug if you're out walking it? It's GOING to do something stupid as shit. It's a pug. At least keep it tethered to you to stop it from hurting itself.

And let's not stray from the specifics here and just generalize about "little dogs" - this is specifically about a pug. Not a chihuahua, or a pomeranian, or an italian greyhound, or a scottie or whatever. This was specifically about a jogger spotting a PUG coming at him (likely not at a particularly high rate of speed, either, because PUG) and going out of his way to kick the dog to death.

"it's a pug" isn't a good enough excuse to just have your dogs running around doing whatever they feel like. obviously this guy shouldn't have kicked the thing to death, but it's incredibly irresponsible to just let your dogs run around like that.

 

[johnnyfive]

His actions were grossly disproportionate in defending himself, but if it were a larger animal capable of outrunning him? What should he have done?

Hard to say without more specifics, but I would start by yelling to the owner to recall the dog. If the owner doesn't take responsibility or isn't around, then it's a very different situation.

 

[Shamrock7r]

"it's a pug" isn't a good enough excuse to just have your dogs running around doing whatever they feel like. obviously this guy shouldn't have kicked the thing to death, but it's incredibly irresponsible to just let your dogs run around like that.

nobody....is arguing that... sigh

 

[Sydle]

A large dog charging at you is a situation where I could be more empathic to this situation happening.

And the leash comments are getting ridiculous. We know dogs should be leashed but sometimes things can happen. My dog once got her collar off and started running around while I had to try and grab her.

That's no excuse, you're still accountable for what the dog does.

I had the exact same thing happen to me 3 weeks ago when my GSP slipped out of his collar. As soon as it happened all that ran through my head was that I was going to be legally responsible for anything he did, that he will startle people because he's a 65lb dog running full speed at people and potentially be hurt by their reaction, and in the case he got ran over I wouldn't blame the driver. All my fault, because I didn't have him secured.

Now I have a harness that he can't slip out of.

 

[out0v0rder]

he wasn't startled though. he saw a little dog running towards him and because he had been previously bitten by a small dog, kicked the one in front of him because she was there, despite not attacking him.

im sorry, i am not talking about this specific incident, im just speaking in general. we dont have many facts anyways besides the dog wasn't on a leash, and is now dead and has been cremated.
what i meant to say is in general, i can see how it can be a natural instinct to perform an action such as kicking when a small unleashed animal has startled you

 

[Wazzy]

That's no excuse, you're still accountable for what the dog does.

I had the exact same thing happen to me 3 weeks ago when my GSP slipped out of his collar. As soon as it happened all that ran through my head was that I was going to be legally responsible for anything he, that he will startle people and potentially be hurt (my fault), and in the case he got ran over I wouldn't blame the driver.

Now I have a harness that he can't slip out of.

I never spoke about owners responsibility. I'm saying that people keep throwing out "leash your dog!" when sometimes dogs can get out of their collars. Not only that but my dog being off leash doesn't give someone the right to kick it.

 

[muu]

What is this magical amount "hard enough to kill it"? I see people using it like it's a set amount that is assumed to be very hard. There's no specific amount. It may have been a jogging speed kick to the wrong spot that killed the dog.

It's funny how some people don't seem to grasp that we don't have life bars floating on our heads where 0HP = dead. I got hit head-on by a car doing 40 to make a yellow left turn and swerved onto the sidewalk when I was a kid; that could easily have been fatal or at least capable of permanent injury, but all I got was a bad bruise on my thigh.

 

[3phemeral]

A large dog charging at you is a situation where I could be more empathic to this situation happening.

And the leash comments are getting ridiculous. We know dogs should be leashed but sometimes things can happen. My dog once got her collar off and started running around while I had to try and grab her.

True. But in this same situation, if given someone who's been bitten before by similarly sized dogs, how do you gauge a reactionary defense mechanism? Would it not be also qualified as "things happen?" I mean, it's gross to think about the death of an animal that way but how do you determine what's an appropriate response when you're instinctually protecting yourself?

Yea. It would be interesting to see compare the posts of users here to their posts in recent cop threads.

What comparison would that be?

Hard to say without more specifics, but I would start by yelling to the owner to recall the dog. If the owner doesn't take responsibility or isn't around, then it's a very different situation.

Yeah, thats true. But it seems the argument now is what's an appropriate reaction if you're responding out of instinct? If you're panicked and fearful, it's difficult to say how you'd respond because it's likely you're not operating logically at that split second.

 

[themidnightsun156]

ive had a friend be totally guilty of something and call the cops to make it seem like he was innocent, so its not as cut and dry as "he called the cops so he must be innocent"

 

[johnnyfive]

That's no excuse, you're still accountable for what the dog does.

I had the exact same thing happen to me 3 weeks ago when my GSP slipped out of his collar. As soon as it happened all that ran through my head was that I was going to be legally responsible for anything he did, that he will startle people because he's a 65lb dog running full speed at people and potentially be hurt by their reaction, and in the case he got ran over I wouldn't blame the driver. All my fault, because I didn't have him secured.

Now I have a harness that he can't slip out of.

That's the key. Allowing the dog to be off leash is wrong in this case as a matter of statute, and it helps establish what is called negligence per se if the dog caused any harm/damage. But the pug did not cause any damage.

If someone wants to blame the pug owner, they should call her police department and encourage them them to fine her.

 

[BennyBlanco]

nobody....is arguing that... sigh

i guess you can't be bothered to read the comment chain, but I asked why he wasn't on a leash and that's the response I got.

 

[Always-honest]

you agreed with someone saying if you don't want trouble, have your dog on a leash as if nothing could have prevented a person kicking a dog that wasn't even harming them

No, i agreed that keeping your dog on a leash is always a wise thing to do....

 

[3phemeral]

ive had a friend be totally guilty of something and call the cops to make it seem like he was innocent, so its not as cut and dry as "he called the cops so he must be innocent"

But then you could just not believe anything anyone says and fabricate your own convenient reality.

 

[johnnyfive]

Yeah, thats true. But it seems the argument now is what's an appropriate reaction if you're responding out of instinct? If you're panicked and fearful, it's difficult to say how you'd respond because it's likely you're not operating logically at that split second.

Reaction will definitely vary from person to person. But even crazy people are liable for the damages they cause.

 

[Shamrock7r]

i guess you can't be bothered to read the comment chain, but I asked why he wasn't on a leash and that's the response I got.

I did and the point is completely irrelevent

 

[Shiggy]

If a small dog comes running at me, Barking loudly, I might've also kicked it. Seems like no one here has ever been bitten by a dog - yup, even the small ones can make your leg hurt and bleed nicely. Put your puppy on a leash or make sure it's does not look like a threat to others...

And in such a case I doubt I'd be held liable for damages as it would be reasonable force to prevent harm to myself.

I'm the last who's going to pity the dog owner.

Spoiler

concerning the dog itself, it's a sad fate.

 

[THRILLH0]

If a small dog comes running at me, Barking loudly, I might've also kicked it. Seems like no one here has ever been bitten by a dog - yup, even the small ones can make your leg hurt and bleed nicely. Put your puppy on a leash or make sure it's does not look like a threat to others...

Im the last who's going to pity the dog owner.

Spoiler

concerning the dog itself, it's a sad fate.

I have. What now?

 

[Wazzy]

If a small dog comes running at me, Barking loudly, I might've also kicked it. Seems like no one here has ever been bitten by a dog - yup, even the small ones can make your leg hurt and bleed nicely. Put your puppy on a leash or make sure it's does not look like a threat to others...

Im the last who's going to pity the dog owner.

Spoiler

concerning the dog itself, it's a sad fate.

I've been bitten multiple times actually and my reaction isn't to kick a fucking tiny dog.

And pugs look threatening? Lol okay then.

 

[Ray Wonder]

I've been bitten multiple times actually and my reaction isn't to kick a fucking tiny dog.

And pugs look threatening? Lol okay then.

Size and breed are irrelevant. The dude was bit by a tiny dog in the past.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

You would think someone would want to avoid the potential consequences that would come from kicking someone else's pet