-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Edge Rumor: Natal To Cost $149, Bundled With Arcade For $299
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
charlequin
Banned
Mr.Green said:
No, you very much weren't; you were talking about Natal's appeal to people relative to other comparable things, like the Wii.
You are dramatically overstating the active interest anyone in the world has in interacting with their television by waving their empty hands around because you have constructed a false myth about how they're afraid of buttons. In reality, the 360-style controller may be (or rather, is) suboptimal for your average non-dedicated gaming user to use as a tool of interaction but that doesn't mean these people are dying for a hands-free method; it just means that other methods that are incrementally better (like the Wii remote) are also incrementally more appealing to them, even though they also have buttons omg
Mr.Green said:
Just saying, I highly doubt the mainstream audience is really ready to adopt a device that reacts to them without any sort of physical touch. Nintendo doesn't believe people want that; neither does Apple. Both of them prioritize the physical component and how it helps people to feel they have control over the content they are interacting with.
Given both companies' recent success, I find it hard to dispute their opinions.
charlequin
Banned
jman2050 said:
Exactly.
The Wiimote doesn't actually change the input mechanism, it just streamlines it. The 360 controller is built iteratively on earlier game controllers -- it assumes you have a strong base of learned knowledge (that the left analog stick is the "primary" control, how to hold your hands to use the triggers and bumpers, that the right-thumb buttons are for gameplay while the center buttons are usually system controls -- but not always, that the bottom button is generally confirm in the US and the right one is cancel, etc.) so that you can interpret how to use it correctly.
The Wiimote makes things easier on people not by shielding them from ooooh scary buttons, but by reducing the upfront knowledge you need to use it. The issue of what is used for primary directional control is completely eliminated because it's implicit in how you hold the device -- it's the pointer if you hold it remote-style and D-pad when you hold it sideways. It makes it obvious what button to push because there's this big obvious A button right there under your thumb. It provides a directional control (pointing) that's extremely high in both tactile and visual feedback so it's easy to see if you're using it correctly.
Natal, on the other hand, has very bad visual feedback and basically no ongoing feedback in how to use your body to control it. There might be a good interface in there somewhere, but it's definitely not actually accessibility-focused the way the Wiimote is.
charlequin
Banned
Alx said:
If Natal had an always-on voice-receptive microphone that could hear "system turn on" and power up your TV and 360, it'd be the killer app of the forever, but right now you still need to find a minimum of two remote-type devices just to turn it on.
charlequin said:
Gee thanks for telling me what I wanted to say. I was talking about the 360 controller and I did provide examples of things I thought Natal was optimal for because someone asked for examples. Fitness games and a UI that would work in a similar way a touchscreen does. Period. I'm not saying it's superior to everything.
You are free to disagree but that jackass-know-it-all tone was uncalled for.
lowlylowlycook
Member
Is anyone else crazy enough to think that the inadvisability of this price might depend on what Nintendo is selling the 3DS for?
erlim said:
Possibly because there are a lot of smart people out there who considered this sort of interface and said no.
You know, I just watched that Minority Report UI video on Youtube. Know what's kind of being glossed over by many fans of this interface? The moment when Tom Cruise goes to shake Colin Farrell's hand and the interface goes all to hell and he has to fix it, not to mention the number of complex movements he has to perform in order for the system to do half of what he wants it to.
Yes, it's impressive to watch visually - which might garner some early Natal sales - but I don't see the accessibility argument at all.
lowlylowlycook said:
Nope. Not that crazy.
Mr.Green said:
There's a myriad of things Microsoft would have to get round to apply Natal to a UI in the way a touchscreen does, purely because of the fact you can't press to select anything like a touchscreen can.
EyeToy got round it by having large areas you just held your hand in for a time to force a selection, which it got away with because of the simple nature of the games and their interface.
Anything beyond simple page left/page right handgestures is going to be clunky and prone to error, that's why I think people hoping for a Minority Report style overhaul of the complete 360 dashboard are setting themselves up for disappointment.
I think a separate limited 'media app' is more likely, with media viewing/playing facilities and limited interface, or they might just ignore that side completely because it would highlight the shortcomings of the whole Natal concept.
Neuromancer
Member
Stop pissing in my cornflakes.DECK'ARD said:
ScrabbleDude
Member
The problem with a fitness game on Natal is that it can't tell provide you with accurate feedback on weight loss. You will still need a scale for that.Mr.Green said:
Or maybe because the technology hadn't advanced the point where it was affordable enough to justify dedicating resources to a useful interface. But no, let's wave our hands towards "smart people".Vinci said:
Really now, you're using a clip from a movie about future cops using a room-sized display and crazy gloves to solve time-sensitive murder mysteries as evidence that camera/motion system isn't accessible?
ScrabbleDude
Member
Completely agree. But the ability to get actual real life feedback on your progress through the game and be able to actually track your weight is significant.Zachack said:
Hey, Zachack! Where've you been?
So it's reasonable for people to use that exact same clip to promote and hype themselves up about Natal since it's unveiling but it's unfair to then look at it and say what's not so great or why it looks complex and inaccessible? Really?
What part of a weight scale is not tactile feedback? They're interacting with a physical object.
Zachack said:
So it's reasonable for people to use that exact same clip to promote and hype themselves up about Natal since it's unveiling but it's unfair to then look at it and say what's not so great or why it looks complex and inaccessible? Really?
What part of a weight scale is not tactile feedback? They're interacting with a physical object.
ViperVisor
Member
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-103-pach-attack/62129?type=flv
I also don't see the long term, end game with Natal.
When you figured it was $50 or so with a little software you could see a future where this would then be a mandatory addition to the next console. You are building to a future. At this price you are extending your console to a few % more. But when the next round comes you can't include it without a $500 price. That is a shitty plan but so is keeping it optional for a console that will be manufactured for 5 years.
Sony Move looks closer to what Nintendo has in 1 control solution in the box but close isn't good enough as PS4 would still need 3 things and about $100 thrown in the box. Really don't get what MS and Sony are doing. It is 2010. Say when these things finally come out in 6 months they do well and they make back the R&D, production and dev costs. Then what?
ViperVisor said:
Depends. If Natal and Move are robust enough, they may be kept as compatible with the next console.
If they aren't then they will get replaced with improved versions and/or bundled with the next console.
If they fail to become "standard" then they will remain as accessories rather than standard pieces of hardware everyone has/needs.
Neuromancer
Member
ViperVisor said:
Vinci said:
You're grasping at straws with this whole necessity of physical objects. Newer touchscreen technology allows the user to move his finger close to the screen without actually touching it. What's your take on that? An intuitive interface is something that works efficiently and is easy to use. Who gives a shit if you actually have to touch something.
Now:
xxxT34 B4663Rxxx sent you a friend request. Press A to accept. Press X to delete.
Natal:
xxxT34 B4663Rxxx sent you a friend request. Smile to accept. Give him the finger to delete.
DAY ONE! :lol
mentalfloss
Banned
Mr.Green said:
The benefit of a pointer is that you can have an 'accept' and 'delete' button right on screen. Not sure if Natal could do the same and pick up your motion behaviour interaction with the screen itself like Wii and Move can.
Those solutions are more eloquent than constantly instructing the user 'press this to do that'.
Neither are particularly reasonable but watching the video and assuming that the basic concepts such as waving for certain tasks can be accessible is more reasonable than decrying the more advanced concepts. Solving a future-murder? Natal might not be the best solution. Using a wave motion to scroll through my Netflix queue and fist-bumping the screen to start a movie? Probably pretty natural.Vinci said:
For all intents and purposes they are standing on a plank. Natal will not shock you or spray acid in your face if you stand on a plank. The reveal videos actually indicated that Natal may take plank-standing into account.
Or for standing on an actual scale, although speaking your current weight would not be as easy as Wii Fit just tracking it. I am assuming (praying) that Natal will be PC compatible, though, so it would be a give and take.
Zachack said:
You like to fist-bump while selecting to start a movie? Hm. I suppose we'll just see one way or another, but I think people are pretty used to handling things physically when it comes to dealing with devices. I believe it suggests a sense of control that is comforting to them. If you feel this isn't true, then we're simply at odds with our personal perspectives and we'll see how Natal turns out.
Awesome.
Mr.Green said:
I would suggest that people would still prefer to actually touch the screen.
Gorki247
Member
Wave sounds alright and fits. Although, MS already use the name Wave in reference to their "fresh developments and products to come out of Microsoft". It could be that they decided to adopt this name for Natal.
http://www.microsoftwave.com/
http://twitter.com/microsoftwave
http://www.microsoftwave.com/
http://twitter.com/microsoftwave
No, I like to narrow my eyes and give a subtle but masterful nod to start movies. However, I don't think Natal will pick up on that so a basic "push" motion should be enough. Or saying start or snapping fingers, whatever. Considering how few buttons are actually used on a remote by most people, I don't think mapping the 6-7 commands available in the Netflix app to motions or words (most likely the latter) will be hard for Grandpappy-pep-pep to learn.Vinci said:
Thread stuck in
'no it will be a success'
'nuh uh, it will be a failure' mode of argumentation.
There's literally no room to move on the discussion
But I really think It's going to sell out initially, but a lot of it depends on software, and RARE isn't what they used to be.
Also, lot of the analysis on the success of the Wii and in turn trying to parlay it into a reason why Natal will enjoy similar successes downplays the whole package, and simplifies the argumentation down to patronizing simplistic dichotomies of casuals vs. hardcore, or nintendo 'got lucky' etc.
Without the software, the right hardware and input method, and pricing, a lot of things would be different today.
And of course, I throw in my aforementioned reservations about MS and Sony and their Wiitoo attemps and how it will mesh with their 3D initiatives. It seems scatterbrained.
'no it will be a success'
'nuh uh, it will be a failure' mode of argumentation.
There's literally no room to move on the discussion
But I really think It's going to sell out initially, but a lot of it depends on software, and RARE isn't what they used to be.
Also, lot of the analysis on the success of the Wii and in turn trying to parlay it into a reason why Natal will enjoy similar successes downplays the whole package, and simplifies the argumentation down to patronizing simplistic dichotomies of casuals vs. hardcore, or nintendo 'got lucky' etc.
Without the software, the right hardware and input method, and pricing, a lot of things would be different today.
And of course, I throw in my aforementioned reservations about MS and Sony and their Wiitoo attemps and how it will mesh with their 3D initiatives. It seems scatterbrained.
I get so tired of seeing this flawed reasoning, over and over again. 360 hard drives are priced the way they are because of how the various 360 SKUs are priced. If an arcade costs $199, and an Elite costs $350, then the Elite's drive (when sold separately) pretty much has to cost $150. This illustrates that the Elite is overpriced, or maybe the Arcade is underpriced, but it doesn't mean that "MS doesn't understand peripheral pricing DERP DERP!"flamesofchaos said:
Back on topic: $149 for Natal would guarantee its failure. As a Natal fan, that would make me sad. On the upside, it would save me money. If it comes out for a sane $69-$79 price, I'll almost certainly grab one for shits and giggles... and of course, it still might fail.
Quadrangulum
Banned
TheOddOne said:
Misuse of that picture if there ever was one.
Alx
Member
charlequin said:
There was a rumor (leak ?) on an italian website claiming that it's exactly what one guy was testing when he showed them pictures of the latest prototype.
http://translate.google.com/transla...in-esclusiva-mondiale-su-mit.html&sl=it&tl=en
bad translator said:
If Natal is Eyetoy 2.0 then why not compare it to the Eyetoy? I'm curious to know peoples' experiences with Eyetoy and PSeye. I'm trying hard to imagine what the experience would be like playing a game without having any physical controller. Did it feel lacking since you have no tactile feedback? Does it feel intuitive? A cheap gimmick? I really want to know.
Dude Abides
Banned
Vizion28 said:
Well that settles that.
Domcorleone
Member
I dont know about you guys but I dont want to have to make grand gestures to access what I want to play or open via the dashboard or games with Natal. Does anyone know if the camera can pick up small finger gestures? Because if it doesnt and requires voice command or recognition that sucks as well for me because sometimes I simply dont want to talk or have to repeat a phrase 3 times or speak a certain way. It is kinda like when I call customer service lines and they have that automated voice system that tried to pick up what your saying, it just annoys me, I rather press "1" for sales then say "sales" 2 times, similarly, on a controller if A is to start game, then it will always do what I want it to do when i press it rather than saying "play" and it thinking I said "stay"