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[StealthGoblin]

But Natal is more then casuals. They also want GAF to play with it, and for that they would need to include controllers, and use the controller for Natal-controller games.

See, I haven't got this impression from what I've been reading in official statements and PR. Natal looks uber casual to me and its being positioned that way, except the price.

I don't consider it 'hardcore Natal' when sitting there throwing the odd grenade with it in Gears. 'Hardcore Natal' to me would be a game that exclusively uses Natal, not the controller, and is a gamers game. I don't forsee many of those coming, and Microsoft have effectively said they aren't developing any of those games.

The opposite is true of Move. I can sit there and play SOCOM 4 and probably Killzone 2, Under Siege, LittleBigPlanet 2 etc in addition to the Ape Escapes, Move party etc. Sony have been the ones to say that you can have casual experiences and make traditional games better with their motion controller solution, Microsoft. . haven't.

If Microsoft really want GAF to play games with Natal, I suspect they'll have to do more than have the optional add-ons like grenade throwing etc. The NXE navigation will be good for both groups of players, but I hardly think thats worth £100 to do if there are no 'core' games.

I've always felt like Natal was never aimed at me.

 

[Linkified]

Unless they're just wanting to be total asshats, there's really no massive reason to take the standard 360 controller out of the Natal package. The more out there, the better - even if the primary buyer(s) of the system won't ever, or are unlikely to, use it. Their kids could, their friends could.

Because Natal can so far from what MS has released Natal can accomodate multiple users. Then you sell the slightly expensive add on for the people who want to experience the whole of the 360. And get the casuals to buy £30 controllers when they want to play a core game.

 

[TheOddOne]

See, I haven't got this impression from what I've been reading in official statements and PR. Natal looks uber casual to me and its being positioned that way, except the price.

I don't consider it 'hardcore Natal' when sitting there throwing the odd grenade with it in Gears. 'Hardcore Natal' to me would be a game that exclusively uses Natal, not the controller, and is a gamers game. I don't forsee many of those coming, and Microsoft have effectively said they aren't developing any of those games.

The opposite is true of Move. I can sit there and play SOCOM 4 and probably Killzone 2, Under Siege, LittleBigPlanet 2 etc in addition to the Ape Escapes, Move party etc. Sony have been the ones to say that you can have casual experiences and make traditional games better with their motion controller solution, Microsoft. . haven't.

If Microsoft really want GAF to play games with Natal, I suspect they'll have to do more than have the optional add-ons like grenade throwing etc. The NXE navigation will be good for both groups of players, but I hardly think thats worth £100 to do if there are no 'core' games.

I've always felt like Natal was never aimed at me.

No, they never said that. The only thing mentioned was that their focus for now is 'casual games', the emphasis here lies 'for now'. Every PR msg has focused on the word 'casual games', that does not mean there is no focus on Hardcore games. The arguments about move is basically what Nintendo has been saying all along.

 

[Vinci]

Because Natal can so far from what MS has released Natal can accomodate multiple users. Then you sell the slightly expensive add on for the people who want to experience the whole of the 360. And get the casuals to buy £30 controllers when they want to play a core game.

So you're suggesting that if someone were to buy the Natal bundle that they should not get a 360 controller?

 

[Linkified]

So you're suggesting that if someone were to buy the Natal bundle that they should not get a 360 controller?

Yes that is correct why package something that a causal consumer doesn't want.

However I expect a Natal Elite bundle to appear when around 60% of core titles have a Natal extra feature in it whether that my voice recognition, colour recognition or some other bit of Natal for a gameplay feature. Then you will see Natal and 360 controller included in a pack.

 

[StealthGoblin]

No, they never said that. The only thing mentioned was that their focus for now is 'casual games', the emphasis here lies 'for now'. Every PR msg has focused on the word 'casual games', that does not mean there is no focus on Hardcore games. The arguments about move is basically what Nintendo has been saying all along.

So, why should I buy one at launch then? I'm basically having to rely on 3rd partys for the games I want then. Companies should always lead from the front. Nintendo did, Sony are, Microsoft. . .aren't when it comes to the 'core' games.

 

[Vinci]

Yes that is correct why package something that a causal consumer doesn't want.

Because I'm not MS and would prefer they add as much value to the package as they can?

However I expect a Natal Elite bundle to appear when around 60% of core titles have a Natal extra feature in it whether that my voice recognition, colour recognition or some other bit of Natal for a gameplay feature. Then you will see Natal and 360 controller included in a pack.

You understand this latter package would probably help accomplish the former goal better than not including a 360 controller in the Natal bundle, right?

 

[Vinterbird]

See, I haven't got this impression from what I've been reading in official statements and PR. Natal looks uber casual to me and its being positioned that way, except the price.

I don't consider it 'hardcore Natal' when sitting there throwing the odd grenade with it in Gears. 'Hardcore Natal' to me would be a game that exclusively uses Natal, not the controller, and is a gamers game. I don't forsee many of those coming, and Microsoft have effectively said they aren't developing any of those games.

The opposite is true of Move. I can sit there and play SOCOM 4 and probably Killzone 2, Under Siege, LittleBigPlanet 2 etc in addition to the Ape Escapes, Move party etc. Sony have been the ones to say that you can have casual experiences and make traditional games better with their motion controller solution, Microsoft. . haven't.

If Microsoft really want GAF to play games with Natal, I suspect they'll have to do more than have the optional add-ons like grenade throwing etc. The NXE navigation will be good for both groups of players, but I hardly think thats worth £100 to do if there are no 'core' games.

I've always felt like Natal was never aimed at me.

I think it all comes down to what you define as "Hardcore Natal" then. For me both a controller-Natal game and Milo & Kate is a hardcore experience in my book. Because they will probably not be aimed at the casual audience. That's what Ricochet and the Rare fitness game is for.

In regards to the Move thing, it depends on how you view it. I see it as being a Natal hardcore game when Natal us used for anything. Be it hand gestures to give orders during a stealth operation in Future Warfighter or be it headtrack to look out the windows in Forza 4. They don't rely only on Natal, but they use it to add to the experience and create something unique within the hardcore gamers game stigma. Much like the Move games, and if Natal plays a vital part of the experience, then I think it's fair to put it into the "Natal-hardcore" box.

But it all comes down to how you define what is what.

(and have Microsoft said they won't do gamers-games with Natal? I don't remember seeing that quote?)

 

[Ding]

Questions I've got for Natal:

1] Heard it doesn't work for black people or people wearing black. Is this true? What if your clothing is coloured similar to your walls or your furniture?

The depth-sensing part of Natal relies on being able to bounce IR light off of the player. So, if you are wearing a black velvet suit, it's likely that the Natal would have trouble getting a good "reading" off of you. Black skin is still fairly reflective, so that should still work, but I might expect it to work somewhat less well.

The depth-sensing part of Natal doesn't see colors, it sees depth. Think: radar. So, wearing colors that match the background would have zero effect on that part of the system.

In general, my guess is that light colored clothes/people/objects will work better than dark colored ones. Also, the dimmer the room lighting is, the better. For instance, I doubt the Natal would work at all if you took it outside in the sun. The IR emitters would be overwhelmed by all the "natural" IR. This also might explain the whole orange jumpsuit thing. On-stage demos, under tens of thousands of watts of hot stage lighting, are kind of a worst case scenario for Natal. I bet they use a super-duper IR-emitter for those shows/demos.

2] What if you get an itch that you need to scratch?

The same thing that happens today, more or less. You may lose the ability to control the game for a second. If you are viewing your avatar at the time, you'll be able to watch him stick his arm behind his back. (BAM!)

There will certainly be times where motions will be misinterpreted as game commands. That's obvious. You'll scratch your ear and accidentally mute the team chat, or something. I guess both players and developers will need to try to minimize that issue as best they can. It'll never be perfect, though.

3] What happens if people go to the kitchen and get a drink and then come back? Will Natal realize it's a different person that comes back? What if it's a 2 player game and they end up switching locations, or moving away from the camera and coming back, will it confuse which player is which?

MS has already talked about being able to recognize humans, and match them up with their profiles. How well with this work? Not sure. You'll be able to fool it, no doubt. Hopefully, there will eventually be a standardized way to straighten out any confusion. The 360 could just ask each player to wave, or something like that, to verify that everyone is who it thinks they are.

 

[Vinci]

Galvanize is right. Sony has been far more upfront about their goal to include Move support in core titles. People have played them, in fact. MS's Natal content has been pretty... vague up to this point. As of now, we really don't know what the hell they're planning to release for the thing.

MS has already talked about being able to recognize humans, and match them up with their profiles. How well with this work? Not sure. You'll be able to fool it, no doubt. Hopefully, there will eventually be a standardized way to straighten out any confusion. The 360 could just ask each player to wave, or something like that, to verify that everyone is who it thinks they are.

And if Natal cannot end up doing that, MS will likely define the standard for developers so that it's consistent across all products. They've been good about guidelines this generation.

 

[Linkified]

Because I'm not MS and would prefer they add as much value to the package as they can?


You understand this latter package would probably help accomplish the former goal better than not including a 360 controller in the Natal bundle, right?

But you understand that IF the Natal bundled with an Arcade isn't for the core audience at all. And seen as all the insights we are getting from press speculation that the first batch of games why throw in a controller at all. They'll save the other bundle when they need to drag in the core to buy Natal, is that at launch nope.

And I personally believe there won't be any core games this year that will have Natal elements.

 

[Vinterbird]

And I personally believe there won't be any core games this year that will have Natal elements.

They announced back in august last year that Fable 3 will support Natal, so that's one.

 

[Vinci]

But you understand that IF the Natal bundled with an Arcade isn't for the core audience at all. And seen as all the insights we are getting from press speculation that the first batch of games why throw in a controller at all. They'll save the other bundle when they need to drag in the core to buy Natal, is that at launch nope.

And I personally believe there won't be any core games this year that will have Natal elements.

If they have any dreams of developers creating Natal-Standard Controller titles, they really need to keep the 360 controller in the box.

 

[TheOddOne]

So, why should I buy one at launch then? I'm basically having to rely on 3rd partys for the games I want then. Companies should always lead from the front. Nintendo did, Sony are, Microsoft. . .aren't when it comes to the 'core' games.

This point is different from what you where making, first you say 'there will be no hardcore games because Microsoft have said it' (which isn't true) to 'Why isn't Microsoft makes core games for it'. Who says they aint making 'core' games for it? Microsoft said specifically that out the gate expect alot of casual games.

 

[Linkified]

If they have any dreams of developers creating Natal-Standard Controller titles, they really need to keep the 360 controller in the box.

Yeah, the core have the standard controller already they have to just buy Natal add-on. THE casual bundle, i.e. the arcade bundle will not want these core games with Natal support.

 

[Vinci]

Yeah, the core have the standard controller already they have to just buy Natal add-on. THE casual bundle, i.e. the arcade bundle will not want these core games with Natal support.

If the Natal bundle includes Natal and the 360 Slim, MS had better include a 360 controller.

 

[Vinterbird]

If the Natal bundle includes Natal and the 360 Slim, MS had better include a 360 controller.

They will. They aren't that stupid, and they will need it for the combo experiences.

 

[Linkified]

If the Natal bundle includes Natal and the 360 Slim, MS had better include a 360 controller.

No - the Natal bundle will be Natal and an Xbox 360 Arcade unit. The bundle aimed at casuals and that section of consumers have no need for a standard controller.

 

[jman2050]

I think you are focussing too much on "control" and not enough on "interaction" when you hold a conversation, unless it's a VERY close acquaintance, you very rarely touch the other person, yet you make many gestures and use your voice.

I'm not saying that for certain tasks you don't want tactile feedback, and the most interesting thing for me is how a console who has built a fan base on twitch gaming of FPSs and racing games transitions them to other gameplay genres, but for a great many tasks (Milo being the best example so far) voice and gesture are far more natural than pressing buttons.

Wait, are you seriously comparing interaction with another person to interaction with a machine?

Really?

 

[gerg]

No - the Natal bundle will be Natal and an Xbox 360 Arcade unit. The bundle aimed at casuals and that section of consumers have no need for a standard controller.

So... Microsoft is basically launching a new system entirely? I'm sure they're cleverer than that.

 

[TheOddOne]

They will. They aren't that stupid, and they will need it for the combo experiences.

This x 1000.

 

[Linkified]

So... Microsoft is basically launching a new system entirely? I'm sure they're cleverer than that.

No, but they won't want to lose the focus of what experiences they want casual gamers to enjoy on the system and they will be controller free ones. If they want to try the core games out they go out and buy a standard controller.

If core gamers want to jump in, they will need to go out and buy Natal.

 

[Mr.Green]

Looking at the way they designed that ball game interface(grab ball, drag it to portraits/pictures), pretty much the worse interface ever, the Natal software team has a long way to go.

Yeah!

*grabs mouse* *drags the cursor over the submit reply button*

 

[jman2050]

Yeah!

*grabs mouse* *drags the cursor over the submit reply button*

I seriously can't believe you even attempted this analogy.

 

[gerg]

No, but they won't want to lose the focus of what experiences they want casual gamers to enjoy on the system and they will be controller free ones. If they want to try the core games out they go out and buy a standard controller.

If core gamers want to jump in, they will need to go out and buy Natal.

So including an optional controller which they don't have to use would lose that focus?

Yeah!

*grabs mouse* *drags the cursor over the submit reply button*

I wonder if speed and accuracy have something to do with it. If you have to grab the virtual ball and hold it over the selection you've made for a second or so such a system might be quite frustrating.

 

[Vinci]

So including an optional controller which they don't have to use would lose that focus?

Eh. You know these casuals. They're so easily distracted.

 

[Mr.Green]

I seriously can't believe you even attempted this analogy.

I was fooling around. But is the analogy really that crazy? And why?

I wonder if speed and accuracy have something to do with it. If you have to grab the virtual ball and hold it over the selection you've made for a second or so such a system might be quite frustrating.

You'd probably just "drop it" over to select.

But anyway, that was from crappy leaked videos of Ricochet. Will it even work that way when it reaches the market?

 

[Linkified]

So including an optional controller which they don't have to use would lose that focus?

Well yeah, considering the bundle isn't designed for the core and that causals won't want to buy fable 3/gears 3/halo reach but if they do they can go out and spend £30 on a standard controller.

 

[Vinci]

Well yeah, considering the bundle isn't designed for the core and that causals won't want to buy fable 3/gears 3/halo reach but if they do they can go out and spend £30 on a standard controller.

Damn, man... MS does that, E3 is going to be very interesting. All sorts of comparisons are going to be thrown around, as if there haven't already been enough this gen.

 

[gerg]

You'd probably just "drop it" to select.

How would the camera recognise that you've "dropped" the ball? Would it be able to do so consistently, despite the various different motions that people may use.

But anyway, that was from crappy leaked videos of Ricochet. Will it even work that way when it reaches the market?

We'll have to wait and see.

Well yeah, considering the bundle isn't designed for the core and that causals won't want to buy fable 3/gears 3/halo reach but if they do they can go out and spend £30 on a standard controller.

But don't you see that, for the casual gamers who may, eventually, want to play those types of games, including an extra controller and thus saving them £30 is a much better proposition than increasing the price of entry because of some hollow concern about scaring them away? Why actively limit the usefulness and versatility of your consumers' purchases? This is almost reaching Nintendo-incorporating-region-locking levels of stupidity here.

 

[Mr.Green]

How would the camera recognise that you've "dropped" the ball? Would it be able to do so consistently, despite the various different motions that people may use.

You grab it by closing your hand and you drop it by opening it?

Spoiler

Literal translation from French. Not sure if opening/closing your hand is correct in English

 

[Linkified]

But don't you see that, for the casual gamers who may, eventually, want to play those types of games, including an extra controller and thus saving them £30 is a much better proposition than increasing the price of entry because of some hollow concern about scaring them away?

Most causal gamers won't want it £30 is a pretty accessible pricepoint for a controller. And if they don't like those experiences they could trade in that controller fro the latest Natal only game or a points card to rent tv shows on the xbox 360 online.

I can see your point but MS stategy for micro purchase of accesorys for the home console I would say has been a succesful one people moan and crumble but they still buy it. Like most consumers like to complain but still go out and buy it, whether its at a discount or full price.

 

[gerg]

You grab it by closing your hand and you drop it by opening it?

I think you underestimate the challenge of recognising this. I'd be happy for Microsoft to produce a stunning piece of technology, but I doubt the ability of Natal to recognise such minute, varied and quick movements. What if the user grabs the ball underneath, from the side, with only two fingers, using their entire hand, from above...? How exaggerated and distinct does the "drop" motion need to be? Would it be permissible to simply clench and open your palm?

With a mouse you move the device to the correct position and click. That's a single action that's the same for every user who uses the device. If all Natal is going to do is ask us to all use the same pre-determined movements as everybody else, then I'm wary of its worth as an advanced input mechanism (not that the Wii Remote is necessarily an improvement on this front, either).

 

[Mr.Green]

I think you underestimate the challenge of recognising this. I'd be happy for Microsoft to produce a stunning piece of technology, but I doubt the ability of Natal to recognise such minute, varied and quick movements. What if the user grabs the ball underneath, from the side, with only two fingers, using their entire hand, from above...? How exaggerated and distinct does the "drop" motion need to be?

With a mouse you move the device to the correct position and click. That's a single action that's the same for every user who uses the device. If all Natal is going to do is ask us to all use the same pre-determined movements as everybody else, then I'm wary of its worth as an advanced input mechanism (not that the Wii Remote is necessarily an improvement on this front, either).

Well I guess the grabbing part already works? Unless you grab it by simply moving your hand over it, in which case, why do you even need to grab the ball and don't simply put your hand over the damn button instead?

Edit: By the way, I'm pretty sure it can track individual fingers (at least one of the recent articles from the Natal thread said that) so the grabbing/releasing shouldn't be a problem.

 

[SaintR]

So you're suggesting that if someone were to buy the Natal bundle that they should not get a 360 controller?

This is not directly related to your statement Vinci, but in context it is...I think for most of us we already know what's been working with so called hardcore games..and that's actual controllers...in the case of the WII very few "hardcore" games have been run away successes like say gears...So it's very hard to see a "hardcore" system like the xbox do anything casual

 

[Vinci]

Most causal gamers won't want it £30 is a pretty accessible pricepoint for a controller. And if they don't like those experiences they could trade in that controller fro the latest Natal only game or a points card to rent tv shows on the xbox 360 online.

I can see your point but MS stategy for micro purchase of accesorys for the home console I would say has been a succesful one people moan and crumble but they still buy it. Like most consumers like to complain but still go out and buy it, whether its at a discount or full price.

I seriously believe you're underestimating how aggressive Microsoft is going to have to be in order to achieve success with this thing.

 

[gerg]

Well I guess the grabbing part already works?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sorry.

Unless you grab it by simply moving your hand over it, in which case, why do you even need to grab the ball and don't simply put your hand over the damn button instead?

Because I presume, to make sure that you don't accidentally select the wrong option, Natal would then require you to wait for a second or so to confirm your selection, in which case it seems that the system might be very slow and inefficient. That every time you want to make a choice you need to wait until you can move on doesn't sound very enjoyable. In these cases pressing a button on a controller would be much quicker.

Edit: By the way, I'm pretty sure it can track individual fingers (at least one of the recent articles from the Natal thread said that) so the grabbing/releasing shouldn't be a problem.

The problem isn't that, if everybody performed exactly the same motion all the time, Natal wouldn't be able to understand the correct motion; I'm sure the camera is very capable of doing that. Rather, the problem is that people don't always perform the exact same motions. As demonstrated by your "grab the ball" example, there are numerous ways to virtually pick up and object and then let go of it - the problem then is whether Natal would be able to understand those numerous, varied actions as the same "grab the ball" motion, and then respond correctly to it.

I can completely agree that Natal will be a great device for party games a la the Ricochet demo that we've been seeing for a while. For games where you only need a rough understanding of the player's motion, Natal seems like it might be able to provide an enjoyable, kinetic, and (most importantly) unique playing experience. It's when you get down to the smaller, more precise motions (such as navigating menus, and so on) that, unless someone can correct me, Microsoft seems to be stuck between an incorporating but slow system and a precise but fast one.

 

[pr0cs]

The depth-sensing part of Natal relies on being able to bounce IR light off of the player. So, if you are wearing a black velvet suit, it's likely that the Natal would have trouble getting a good "reading" off of you. Black skin is still fairly reflective, so that should still work, but I might expect it to work somewhat less well.

The depth-sensing part of Natal doesn't see colors, it sees depth. Think: radar. So, wearing colors that match the background would have zero effect on that part of the system.

You sort of contradict yourself there I think.
I don't think what you're wearing, what color of skin you have or what the background looks like will have *any* effect on how the IR works. In fact you can probably play specific Natal titles in pitch black.

The biggest downfall of Natal will be how well it interprets what you're doing. Due to lag and different body types/movements that is a lot to ask from the software, especially something so new and innovative.

I just hope they show more than just tech demos and minigames.

 

[Shadow Red]

Not gonna pay $149 for a red-ringed Natal.

 

[Linkified]

I seriously believe you're underestimating how aggressive Microsoft is going to have to be in order to achieve success with this thing.

Yes but can they communicate both messages to the core and the casual gamers at the same time. I don't think they can, best target the casuals and focus on that, if core gamers buy it all when and good.

Plus if they put standard controllers in the casual bundle they would have to put 4 controllers losng MS money. Best to stick in the camera and the controller. Plus how many casual gamers are going to go out and buy Fable 3?

 

[Zachack]

Yes but can they communicate both messages to the core and the casual gamers at the same time. I don't think they can, best target the casuals and focus on that, if core gamers buy it all when and good.

Plus if they put standard controllers in the casual bundle they would have to put 4 controllers losng MS money. Best to stick in the camera and the controller. Plus how many casual gamers are going to go out and buy Fable 3?

The 360 already has a slew of titles (with free demos) that both appeal to the expanded audience and require a controller, and MS will want to cater to them (and their dollars). Not to mention the various interface/utility benefits of having a standard controller for situations where Natal isn't appropriate. You're jumping to ridiculous conclusions.

 

[Cheech]

For $150, it better come with an external BD-ROM as a mea culpa for the $180 I wasted on that piece of shit HD-DVD drive.

 

[Vinci]

This is not directly related to your statement Vinci, but in context it is...I think for most of us we already know what's been working with so called hardcore games..and that's actual controllers...in the case of the WII very few "hardcore" games have been run away successes like say gears...So it's very hard to see a "hardcore" system like the xbox do anything casual

The Wii's difficulties with 'hardcore' games - and I put that in quotes since it's such a difficult term to properly define - has more to do with a perfect storm of factors and nothing specifically to do with the controller or system itself. It's just a console; it's not some kryptonite to 'hardcore' titles, at least it wasn't in the beginning.

The difference between the two examples you're making is this: For all their obvious technical sophistication, games like Gears are easier to make and successfully market than something like Wii Sports is. Gears is one of the stronger franchises, but it has many brethren in design and action orientation; and many of those have achieved fairly strong sales alongside Gears. The only titles competing with Wii Sports are other Nintendo titles.

So when I sound pessimistic towards Microsoft's chances in creating software that attracts that same audience, it's not because of the 360 itself per se (though the X-Box division's hammering over the head of how hardcore it is doesn't help), but it's just not a very easy thing to do.

But if they're able to do it, and showcase something truly special at E3, all the best to them.

 

[Not a Jellyfish]

For $150, it better come with an external BD-ROM as a mea culpa for the $180 I wasted on that piece of shit HD-DVD drive.

As you said, that was your own fault. Learn from it and move on. :lol

 

[Linkified]

The 360 already has a slew of titles (with free demos) that both appeal to the expanded audience and require a controller, and MS will want to cater to them (and their dollars). Not to mention the various interface/utility benefits of having a standard controller for situations where Natal isn't appropriate. You're jumping to ridiculous conclusions.

Care to name them? I'm not saying your wrong but theres none I can think off you have Rockband which uses its own intruments and I would think Lips would and thats got its own microphone and Scene It with its own puzz controller.

 

[WrikaWrek]

For $150, it better come with an external BD-ROM as a mea culpa for the $180 I wasted on that piece of shit HD-DVD drive.

Uninformed buying decision no? At the time that hit, everyone and their mommas knew BLu was gonna win.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

For $150, it better come with an external BD-ROM as a mea culpa for the $180 I wasted on that piece of shit HD-DVD drive.

Ha, I just watched an HD-DVD the other day. Still the only place to watch Anchorman and The Big Lebowski in HD.

 

[Alx]

The biggest downfall of Natal will be how well it interprets what you're doing. Due to lag and different body types/movements that is a lot to ask from the software, especially something so new and innovative.

From what we've heard a few months ago, they went for a pattern recognition approach for gesture interpretation. That is, they gathered a huge database of data from different people/environments, and fed it to a learning algorithm. It's a lot of work, but if their database is good enough, the final result should take into account variations among people.

Of course you can always trick those systems by doing something they don't expect, but in general you're supposed to cooperate with the device, so the user will adapt to its limitations (just like we have an automatic correction for the drifting of a PC mouse without even noticing, for example)

 

[RBH]

For $150, it better come with an external BD-ROM as a mea culpa for the $180 I wasted on that piece of shit HD-DVD drive.

:lol :lol

 

[Dr. Acid Avatar]

Not gonna pay $149 for a red-ringed Natal.

:lol :lol