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Eiji Aonuma wants to include less tutorials in new Wii U Zelda
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
FaintDeftone
Junior Member
Aonuma needs to take a page from the Dark Souls games. Drop us into a small environment with little organic tutorials going over the controls by reading signposts and slapping an opportunity to use new skill, all of which can be completely skipped if desired.
dampflokfreund
Banned
AND in dungeons.
I can agree that TP took way too long to get going but SS really wasn't that bad. Replay it and you'll see you can skip most of the tutorial shit in the beginning.
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say I like a bit of setup in the beginning. Introduce me to the world, the characters, and set up the story but do it in a timely manner. Dropping me in a field with a sword saying go kill some bad shit with no setup at all would be far worse then how SS started imo.
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say I like a bit of setup in the beginning. Introduce me to the world, the characters, and set up the story but do it in a timely manner. Dropping me in a field with a sword saying go kill some bad shit with no setup at all would be far worse then how SS started imo.
I'll never understand why they moved away from Ocarina of Time's template when it comes to introducing the game and it's mechanics. I mean, you got something similar in Ordon Village in Twilight Princess, but it just kept getting longer and longer to really start the games, culminating with the snore-fest that is the first few hours of Skyward Sword. Ocarina had it balanced so well - a playground for you to explore, where the game gently and subtly introduces you to things such as jumping, crawling, drawing your sword and shield, z-targeting and the like, while at the same time advancing the plot and drawing you into Link's world.
I'm not saying we require such an introduction with each Zelda game, but there are always new players so I understand why they'd do it. But why they went on to lengthen these introductions to the extent they have is beyond me.
Encouraging words from Aonuma.
I'm not saying we require such an introduction with each Zelda game, but there are always new players so I understand why they'd do it. But why they went on to lengthen these introductions to the extent they have is beyond me.
Encouraging words from Aonuma.
dragonbane
Member
YEEEEEEEEEEEES
Bel_Air_Jeff
Banned
Also, even though you could do any temple in any order.. I think it's important to handle the difficulty like Dark Souls. Just because you can reach an area, does not mean you are ready to tackle that area.. etc etc.
FaintDeftone
Junior Member
What ever happened to that guy?
Scooter155
Member
It's not an RPG, there's no leveling. What's your suggestion? You need to get a better sword to kill bad guys with higher life in certain areas or something? That would completely defeat the whole mission statement of this game.
Basically, free headbutts to people who keep trying to say Zelda should be more like Dark Souls. Zelda is not, has never been and should never be Dark Souls.
decoyplatypus
Member
Ocarina of Time was pretty damn close to this. You're dropped in a little playground (Kokiri Forest) and left to explore it until you've found a sword and enough money to buy a shield. This gives you a chance to acquaint yourself with basic 3D movement, auto-jump (the creek-crossing gives you rupees), rock-throwing, tunnel-crawling, climbing, and z-targeting. Only the last of these actually involves talking to an NPC. And you can reach the first dungeon in 5 minutes. But if you wanted instructions, talking to NPCs around Kokiri Forest functioned the same as signs in Dark Souls.
Bel_Air_Jeff
Banned
Enemies in certain areas are more difficult without more heart pieces and upgraded gear/magic, not necessarily leveling up your character.
You mean OoT?
It's about time we get a new benchmark to gush over for the next decade and a half
We'll find something. Trust me.
encephalon
Member
The most important thing would be the option to turn them off or bypass them.
Natureboy99
Banned
More and more I'm thinking the Zelda devs have read this:
http://tevisthompson.com/saving-zelda/
Which makes me very happy.
http://tevisthompson.com/saving-zelda/
Which makes me very happy.
Slappers Only
Junior Member
Well, not having a stupid control paradigm to teach every step of the way will be a good start.
This
Hyperactivity
Banned
Describe Skyward Sword's "snorefest"
Do tell me what all was in the intro, I'd like to know'
Feels like SS haters just repeat complaints that aren't rue in the slightest
You mean OoT?
This. Because at the time of release OoT was both the Definitive Zelda in 3D but it was also even the definitive 3D action/adventure title to be made at the time.
I feel like whatever this game will become in the end, it's not gonna be as impressive as OoT was back in the day because of the dated hardware.
And even if they do decrease tutorials from how it was in Skyward Sword there's still much else they need to vastly improve IMO. I feel like there hasn't really been a "really good" Zelda since TP in a sense. Not that TP was even that great, but it had the charm and soul you'd expect from a Zelda game. Somehow I feel like both DS Zeldas and SS and ALBW lacked that, and therefore I doubt Zelda U will retain it.
Stronger enemies in certain dungeons. Better equipment around the world/in other dungeons that would make the harder dungeons more bearable. Though if you were good you could still do the harder dungeons with the first sword, tunic, etc.
Though that's basically ALBW's I think. I'm not sure if enemies got stronger though.
Holy Order Sol
Member
It really doesn't. For example those Lynels in ALBW Death Mountain didn't entirely prevent exploration even though they could easily wreck your shit early in the game. They worked as an indication than better gear/health was recommended, but you could still go there regardless if you tried.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Isn't this how Zelda 1 and 2 were designed? You could go wander around, but certain areas are going to have tougher enemies to deal with. Hell, it also applies to ALBW to some extent.
Bel_Air_Jeff
Banned
Don't worry. He'll appreciate Skyward Sword once the new Wii U Zelda is released.
Zelda Cycle in Full Force.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Did it really take 4-5 hours for the tutorials to end in Skyward Sword? It's been awhile since I played it but I don't remember it being that long.
WrenchNinja
Member
Skyward Sword intro on Skyloft is about an hour at most
That being said, Dowsing for Kikiwi was pretty boring when you arrive on ground
Anything using the dousing mechanic was boring
That being said, Dowsing for Kikiwi was pretty boring when you arrive on ground
Anything using the dousing mechanic was boring
decoyplatypus
Member
Did you play the early games? In the original Legend of Zelda (which Aonuma name-checked when introducing this game) you could easily wander into an area with enemies that were tough to beat with a wooden sword and basic armor. That's why it was exciting to find the bracelets and the magical sword.
There's nothing radical about suggesting Zelda and Dark Souls have certain design features in common. And if we start from the premise that both Zelda Wii U and Dark Souls are non-linear, 3D adventure games with deliberately-paced, real-time combat mixing melee and projectiles (as opposed to straight-up action games), I don't see why the former shouldn't borrow good ideas from the latter, where appropriate.
suddenly LBW doesn't count as a Zelda
dampflokfreund
Banned
Well in ALBW most dungeon had the same difficulty. In Zelda U I want more complex and longer dungeons but I also want short and easy dungeons, but how they will handle it if you can reach every dungeon? The non existent difficulty curve bugs me alot in that no order direction.
LegendofLex
Member
In LoZ, you can set out for the northwestern part of the map and beat Level 6 whenever you want, but you probably want a better sword/armor/shield/life meter first.
Oh hey look that's exactly what Dark Souls does. And that's what people mean when they say they want Zelda to be more like Dark Souls.
MemoryHumanity
Member
Aonuma talking the talk.
Bel_Air_Jeff
Banned
yep! and that's why it should make it's return. You should be able to tackle the dungeons in any order, but there needs to be a set scaling of difficulty or there needs to be a most correct order for the dungeons to be completed.
For the first time playing, it takes about 2 hours to get to the surface, and another 2-3 hours to get to the first Dungeon. It is much quicker on your second playthrough, but it is still way too long.
Bel_Air_Jeff
Banned
3d zeldas and 2d zeldas are kept separate in the Zelda cycle. common knowledge.
TheGreatLugia
Banned
While some of Skyward Sword's opening definitely could have been trimmed, I'll never understand how it can be considered worse than the opening for Twilight Princess:
-It was shorter
-Only one tutorial was mandatory
-Said tutorial made a bit more sense to include (learning to fly compared to fishing, goat herding, and sending a bird to recover a basket that a monkey stole)
This last one is a bit more subjective, but the characters introduced at the start of Skyward Sword were also a lot more fun and memorable in my opinion. Zelda went out of her way to mess with Link as much as possible and Groose was Groose. Compared to Twilight Princess where all Illa did was take away Epona for a bit and I didn't care about any of the characters until Midna showed up, I actually enjoyed how the cast in Skyward Sword interacted off each other.
All of that being said, I'm looking forward to Zelda U if the opening really ends up taking an ALBW style approach. I just think Skyward Sword's opening gets more criticism than it deserves.
-It was shorter
-Only one tutorial was mandatory
-Said tutorial made a bit more sense to include (learning to fly compared to fishing, goat herding, and sending a bird to recover a basket that a monkey stole)
This last one is a bit more subjective, but the characters introduced at the start of Skyward Sword were also a lot more fun and memorable in my opinion. Zelda went out of her way to mess with Link as much as possible and Groose was Groose. Compared to Twilight Princess where all Illa did was take away Epona for a bit and I didn't care about any of the characters until Midna showed up, I actually enjoyed how the cast in Skyward Sword interacted off each other.
All of that being said, I'm looking forward to Zelda U if the opening really ends up taking an ALBW style approach. I just think Skyward Sword's opening gets more criticism than it deserves.
LegendofLex
Member
Bingo. This is perfect.
Some kind of Adult OoT-esque scenario where the game recommends (but rarely enforces) a certain dungeon order would be fine. It'd be particularly good in a game like this where in theory people won't have already explored most of the map before ever being let off the leash.
Sorry, but there were multiple mandatory tutorials.
- You were required to learn to Z-target and dash up walls
- You were required to learn how to skydive (and had to get it exactly right before you could go on)
- You were required to learn how to use the Skyward Strike (unskippable sequence where you're prompted to use it)
- You were required to learn how to place a beacon
- You were required to learn how to select a dowsing target (unskippable view of the menu when acquiring a dowsing target)
- You were required to learn how to use the harp (some people might say this doesn't count, since you're "learning a song," but you didn't have to complete tutorials to learn songs in the Game Boy Zeldas)
- You were required to learn the advanced bird attack move (just prior to the second-to-last boss!)
I don't hate Skyward Sword - actually, I like it a lot- but it's not my favourite game in the series by far. I can't remember specifics as I haven't touched the game since 2011, but I remember it had a very slow start... my memory of which is vindicated by others relating the same tale. I'm not saying I didn't like how it started, just that it took a fair while for it and the plot to really get going.
At least, as far as my memory holds, it did.
Skiesofwonder
Walruses, camels, bears, rabbits, tigers and badgers.
I feel like the combat is going to take a step back without motion+. Say what you will, but when it worked it added a new depth to combat that surpassed any other Zelda before it.
I'm assuming so, but I'm sure it will be optional (as in you can use the right stick instead). It would be pretty badass if they dropped us in this huge open-world without a map and let us draw our own maps of areas, dungeons, etc. They then could let us upload them to miiverse or send them to other gamers worlds, like in Windwaker.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Skyward sword was the first game to actually have zelda and link romantically interested in one another. So it's a win for me I've been asking for that for ages.
MasterSheen
Member
The arrow will be pointed at No just to punish you for spamming A and you'll be forced into hours of tutorials.
Except that the entire surface was filled with puzzles and enemies? And even before that there was a cave to explore, quite a bit of platforming in the town, setup for the plot, etc. I don't understand this clamor for "Must get to 'dungeon' immediately or game is bad!" that always comes up in these threads. I understand that you want to be able to experience the gameplay in a timely manner, but I don't know, I guess I don't consider The Legend of Zelda to be a straight dungeon-crawler.
dampflokfreund
Banned
Yep that would be cool. The game's story recommends you the order in the difficulty aspect but you may or may not follow that order, I think that's perfect. Then they should build a great story in and around every dungeon so there are still some things to do before you get into it.
Admiral Woofington
Member
The thing of allowing you to do dungeons in any order is that then they need to either make gadgets completely useless in dungeons or think of every possible combination of dungeons to get through a dungeon. Or let you have all items from the beginning.
Nicktendo86
Member
I've said it before and I will say it again, the intro to the next Zelda should start with a bang and drop the player in the deep end. START with a boss fight, but make it a dream sequence like a nightmare of a boss Link will face later. Have little pop ups of the moves, as it is a dream link doesn't get hurt when hit. Teach the player the basic controls that way and at the same time have a great, entertaining opening.
