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[EmCeeGramr]

Four to five hours to start playing SS? What is this?

I just finished a second playthrough of SS and I was in an out of Skyloft in about 30 minutes counting the time of cutscenes.

Yeah, I think a lot of people unconsciously mix up the tutorials for SS and TP with such statements.

That or they wholeheartedly believe that one Gamasutra "start to dungeon" article where the chart deliberately ignored Majora's Mask, claimed that TP's "You Are Now Halfway Through Tutorial, Prepare For Another Hour of Tutorial" Hyrule Castle segment was the "start" of the game proper, and had some pretty far end of the spectrum number for how long it took him to get to Skyview Temple (and also acted like Skyview was the "start" of the game despite the player having spent a lot of previous time fighting monsters and enemies).

It took me less than an hour out of Skyloft in Skyward Sword on my first playthrough. It takes 15-20 minutes to reach the first dungeon after that, and it's all fighting enemies and puzzle solving during that time.

In Twilight Princess, you're still learning basic controls and half-implemented gameplay mechanics constantly by the 2-3 hour mark before Link even gets his clothes.

 

[papercan55]

Did it really take 4-5 hours for the tutorials to end in Skyward Sword? It's been awhile since I played it but I don't remember it being that long.

the tutorials ended around the same time as the credits started, fi ruined what could have been a great game.
your health is low
your shield is damaged
your remote batteries are low
you should do this
you should do that
you collected a bug which you already caught before
you collected a treasure which you already found before
let me open the map screen and show you where you are

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

It's not necessarily less, just BETTER. Skyward Sword was an embarrasment to anyone with to brain cells to rub together and were just reductive telling.

 

[majik13]

... but that's what he said and did in ALBW. I don't see why they'd go back on that, to be honest.

yeah, it was great that they already did this in ALBW. I think its just because we havent really seen it done recently in a 3D Zelda, and its good to just be reassured.

I liked that you also didnt have a damn thing following you around being captain ovbious. Can we please be alone again in this game, on out own wits.

The thing of allowing you to do dungeons in any order is that then they need to either make gadgets completely useless in dungeons or think of every possible combination of dungeons to get through a dungeon. Or let you have all items from the beginning.

thats essetially what they did in ALBW. Rent any item near the beggining of the game. If you die, you lost the item and had to go pay to rent it again. iirc i really didnt have much issue with this setup as i thought I would have. But there was still other gear to find in the world, that wasn't equipable items. Like running shoes, gloves, etc.

 

[dampflokfreund]

The thing of allowing you to do dungeons in any order is that then they need to either make gadgets completely useless in dungeons or think of every possible combination of dungeons to get through a dungeon. Or let you have all items from the beginning.

I have another idea: Let's say you get a item in dungeon A without that item in dungeon A you can't complete it. But there are some treasures or even heart pieces you need the items from dungeon B/C/D or overworld item so you can complete the dungeon's story but not the dungeon itself to 100% if you don't have a couple of another items. They did something like that before with the Deku Tree in OoT for example, you need a bomb to get a skulltula. How does that sounds?

 

[Uncle Rupee]

the tutorials ended around the same time as the credits started, fi ruined what could have been a great game.
your health is low
your shield is damaged
your remote batteries are low
you should do this
you should do that
you collected a bug which you already caught before
you collected a treasure which you already found before
let me open the map screen and show you where you are

Eh, I can understand why people were annoyed by Fi but she didn't ruin the game for me. And yeah, being prompted every time you collect an item was really annoying. Zelda TP had the same issue with rupees and Zelda Link's Awakening had a similar problem whenever you touched a stone without the power bracelet.

 

[Bel_Air_Jeff]

The thing of allowing you to do dungeons in any order is that then they need to either make gadgets completely useless in dungeons or think of every possible combination of dungeons to get through a dungeon. Or let you have all items from the beginning.

Or have some sort of algorithm that changes the dungeon depending on what items you have obtained so far...

that would be really interesting..

 

[LegendofLex]

I feel like the combat is going to take a step back without motion+. Say what you will, but when it worked it added a new depth to combat that surpassed any other Zelda before it.

Eh, I wouldn't say any other Zelda. The idea was basically just Zelda II sword combat but in 3D, with four directions instead of two.

The thing of allowing you to do dungeons in any order is that then they need to either make gadgets completely useless in dungeons or think of every possible combination of dungeons to get through a dungeon. Or let you have all items from the beginning.

Or they could make most gadgets mostly useful in their original dungeon (like in ALBW), and helpful for tackling enemies and finding (optional) shortcuts and secrets in the other dungeons (like in LoZ).

Yep that would be cool. The game's story recommends you the order in the difficulty aspect but you may or may not follow that order, I think that's perfect. Then they should build a great story in and around every dungeon so there are still some things to do before you get into it.

Bold, yes. Underlined, not as much. There should be a story behind most regions that, if you follow it, will help add context to the dungeon (and, if you complete the sidequests, will make it easier). But I don't like the idea of throwing up arbitrary barriers between the player and the dungeons, outside of not being skilled/powerful enough to reach them.

 

[Guevara]

the tutorials ended around the same time as the credits started, fi ruined what could have been a great game.
your health is low
your shield is damaged
your remote batteries are low
you should do this
you should do that
you collected a bug which you already caught before
you collected a treasure which you already found before
let me open the map screen and show you where you are

This post is bringing back bad memories.

One day, maybe 10 years from now, Zelda will release an anniversary version of SS with reduced Fi and no motion controls. That will be a pretty good game.

 

[Kai Dracon]

ALBW technically has more tutorial pop-ups than say, ALTTP, but only because there are more mechanics. I think it struck a good balance between instruction and the sheer obfuscation of the original Zelda.

Funny thing is, I believe Aonuma when he says many of these things are issues the Zelda team has wrestled with for years. If you listen to more hyperbolic fans you'd think everyone at Nintendo is a moron who can't make a game. But no; everything Aonuma says jives. Wind Waker did seem like an attempt to bring back a sprawling overworld and address the poor Hyrule Field from Ocarina. Skyward Sword was visibly trying to evoke the complexity and nestled secrets of A Link To the Past's overworld. But the Wii was likely incapable of making a single cohesive map, so it had to be broken up.

The biggest direct response to recent fan complaints has been tutorializing everything. ALBW seems like the test bed product for addressing that topic. It looks like it worked.

 

[Redrop]

... but that's what he said and did in ALBW. I don't see why they'd go back on that, to be honest.

Reassuring the same for a console Zelda is a different matter, I think. Hence his clarity on the matter here.

 

[HUELEN10]

God dammit, and with WWHD the series became more accessible to me too...

I guess this will be yet another Zelda game I don't get far in, and I own like all of them!

 

[Eusis]

Avoid the Zelda U threads, it really is WW Part 2 to some people. It looks glorious I dunno how but there it is.

It's probably more like WW part 3 for them, I remember Skyward Sword's art getting a bunch of crap thrown at it too, and I can't imagine anyone who hates the Wii U art being A-OK with SS's.

Though admittedly in hindsight I do feel SS's lips looked kind of odd to me, but neither that or the Wii U game have that sort of system shock of looking wildly different from expectations and in such a distinct art style at that.

 

[dlauv]

From everything I've heard, it sounds like this guy has gotten a hold of a contemporary consultant.

 

[ampere]

I love the sound of that.

If he does chose to add tutorials, at least make them optional!

 

[dampflokfreund]

Bold, yes. Underlined, not as much. There should be a story behind most regions that, if you follow it, will help add context to the dungeon (and, if you complete the sidequests, will make it easier). But I don't like the idea of throwing up arbitrary barriers between the player and the dungeons, outside of not being skilled/powerful enough to reach them.

But if you just can go into any dungeon without doing sidequests (so rush from dungeon to dungeon then the game's story would end very fast and that would be pretty boring. I still think there should be stuff you have to do before entering a dungeon

 

[ReyVGM]

I have another idea: Let's say you get a item in dungeon A without that item in dungeon A you can't complete it. But there are some treasures or even heart pieces you need the items from dungeon B/C/D or overworld item so you can complete the dungeon's story but not the dungeon itself to 100% if you don't have a couple of another items. They did something like that before with the Deku Tree in OoT for example, you need a bomb to get a skulltula. How does that sounds?

No. Banjo-Tooie syndrome. I don't want to revisit dungeons 2 or 3 times each time I get a new item. I want to enter a dungeon and be done with it. I guess they could do that with one dungeon, but not more than that.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

I have another idea: Let's say you get a item in dungeon A without that item in dungeon A you can't complete it. But there are some treasures or even heart pieces you need the items from dungeon B/C/D or overworld item so you can complete the dungeon's story but not the dungeon itself to 100% if you don't have a couple of another items. They did something like that before with the Deku Tree in OoT for example, you need a bomb to get a skulltula. How does that sounds?

Why are you asking me lol. I have no say on this whatsoever. We have no way of knowing what the plans are until more details are known this outlandish speculation isn't my cup of tea.

Or have some sort of algorithm that changes the dungeon depending on what items you have obtained so far...

that would be really interesting..

I mean it's nice to want things. I'll wait to see what they do tbh.

 

[LegendofLex]

But if you just can go into any dungeon without doing sidequests (so rush from dungeon to dungeon then the game's story would end very fast and that would be pretty boring. I still think there should be stuff you have to do before entering a dungeon

I didn't say there shouldn't be anything you can do. Just that there shouldn't be anything you're required to slog through if you don't want to (say, on a quick replay, or a "challenge mode" run).

 

[TheGreatLugia]

Sorry, but there were multiple mandatory tutorials.

- You were required to learn to Z-target and dash up walls
- You were required to learn how to skydive (and had to get it exactly right before you could go on)
- You were required to learn how to use the Skyward Strike (unskippable sequence where you're prompted to use it)
- You were required to learn how to place a beacon
- You were required to learn how to select a dowsing target (unskippable view of the menu when acquiring a dowsing target)
- You were required to learn how to use the harp (some people might say this doesn't count, since you're "learning a song," but you didn't have to complete tutorials to learn songs in the Game Boy Zeldas)
- You were required to learn the advanced bird attack move (just prior to the second-to-last boss!)

Wasn't the tutorial for dashing up walls the one where you got asked to find the cat? If so you can just ignore it and move on.

Also if Faron Woods is considered part of Skyward Sword's tutorial section, couldn't the same thing be said for the first period as Wolf Link before Twilight Princess' first dungeon? That long stretch where you have to escape through Hyrule Castle (which I think would have been alright on its own), sneak through Ordon Village to get your sword and shield, and backtrack through the Faron Woods to collect all of the Tears of Light.

 

[Leiru]

This post is bringing back bad memories.

One day, maybe 10 years from now, Zelda will release an anniversary version of SS with reduced Fi and no motion controls. That will be a pretty good game.

No motion controls? damn that would be the hardest zelda game of all.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Yes, please. I don't want to sit through a boring hand-holdy movie before I can actually start playing the game.

 

[dampflokfreund]

No. Banjo-Tooie syndrome. I don't want to revisit dungeons 2 or 3 times each time I get a new item. I want to enter a dungeon and be done with it. I guess they could do that with one dungeon, but not more than that.

So what are your ideas then?

 

[Bel_Air_Jeff]

Also, I hope they are not lazy with the overworld design. There needs to be knooks and crannies of secrets EVERYWHERE! Holes in the ground, side quests, NPCs based on the time of day, caves, special events, etc. etc.

They must also limit the amount of traveling back to a previous area to pad the game out. I was annoyed by this in Skyward Sword. Go back to previous area and complete this fetch quest to continue. How bout you just create another dungeon instead?

 

[Spineker]

This post is bringing back bad memories.

One day, maybe 10 years from now, Zelda will release an anniversary version of SS with reduced Fi and no motion controls. That will be a pretty good game.

It would only be half salvaged. That art style isn't going anywhere.

 

[Nibel]

I think Skyward Sword begins rather quick compared to Twilight Princess which indeed takes way too long for its introduction.

That being said, Twilight Princess didn't have a NPC companion that basically spoils any solution to dungeon puzzles and enemy tactics. Fi was way too much involved in literally anything the game offers, killing any sense of exploration and discovery.

So, my humble request: a NPC companion that doesn't put itself too much in the foreground and a quicker introduction to mechanics and the world.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

It would only be half salvaged. That art style isn't going anywhere.

Doesn't need to. SS is easily one of the best looking games in the series.

 

[Deitus]

Stepping back from the tutorials would definitely be a good thing. Skyward Sword especially overtutorialized everything, and Fi was constantly bugging you about one thing or another (yes, I know I'm low on batteries, flash a light or something, but don't interrupt gameplay). And when you had already read the same line of dialogue multiple times, it still took too long to scroll through it.

I don't think they need to get rid of tutorials altogether though. There are still people who play Zelda games, but don't play a lot of other 3d games, and they would struggle without a basic refresher on how to move their character and the camera, among other things. It would be better to keep some of these things optional to avoid annoying experienced players. Or, have a simple obstacle course that could be cleared by most players in a minute tops, but for those that struggle have signs posted that explain how to do the basic actions.

I just hope they don't pay attention to the "Time to Sword" nonsense that pops up every time a new Zelda game is released. Just develop engaging content that people want to play. If people are going to whine that some of that content doesn't involve swinging a sword, then that is their loss.

Edit: Same goes for "Time to Dungeon"

 

[watershed]

I like this news but I am reminded of one thing:

The changes talked about prior to a new Zelda's release always seem bigger than the actual impact of the changes in the game itself.

 

[skeebs]

 

[majik13]

But if you just can go into any dungeon without doing sidequests (so rush from dungeon to dungeon then the game's story would end very fast and that would be pretty boring. I still think there should be stuff you have to do before entering a dungeon

he already has said as much,. He said traversing the world, and figuring out how to get somewhere or reach an area will be a puzzle in itselfs. I am guessing again, sort of like ALBW

So, my humble request: a NPC companion that doesn't put itself too much in the foreground and a quicker introduction to mechanics and the world.

Id rather there just be no companion taging alone. Like ALBW

 

[LegendofLex]

Wasn't the tutorial for dashing up walls the one where you got asked to find the cat? If so you can just ignore it and move on.

No, it's before that. When you dash up to the wall to get to the instructor who wants you to find the cat.

 

[Version 3.0]

the tutorials ended around the same time as the credits started, fi ruined what could have been a great game.
your health is low
your shield is damaged
your remote batteries are low
you should do this
you should do that
you collected a bug which you already caught before
you collected a treasure which you already found before
let me open the map screen and show you where you are

You left out my personal favorites:

Master, I detect with 80% certainty that this is a big tentacle.
Master, I detect with 90% certainly that this big tentacle is attached to the same monster as that other big tentacle.
Master, I detect with 95% certainty that a giant monster is attacking the ship.
Master, I detect with 99% certainty that this giant monster in front of you is the one where those tentacles came from 30 seconds ago.

Go back and play Ocarina of Time after Skyward Sword, you'll never complain about Navi again. Navi keeps her mouth shut most of the time.

Anyway, Hallelujah is this turns out to actually be true.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

Stepping back from the tutorials would definitely be a good thing. Skyward Sword especially overtutorialized everything, and Fi was constantly bugging you about one thing or another (yes, I know I'm low on batteries, flash a light or something, but don't interrupt gameplay). And when you had already read the same line of dialogue multiple times, it still took too long to scroll through it.

I don't think they need to get rid of tutorials altogether though. There are still people who play Zelda games, but don't play a lot of other 3d games, and they would struggle without a basic refresher on how to move their character and the camera, among other things. It would be better to keep some of these things optional to avoid annoying experienced players. Or, have a simple obstacle course that could be cleared by most players in a minute tops, but for those that struggle have signs posted that explain how to do the basic actions.

I just hope they don't pay attention to the "Time to Sword" nonsense that pops up every time a new Zelda game is released. Just develop engaging content that people want to play. If people are going to whine that some of that content doesn't involve swinging a sword, then that is their loss.

If I recall correctly she didnt stop the game to tell you you were low on battery. The Fi icon would flash and if you chose to press the button then she would inform you. She did interrupt a few times when you were trying to solve a puzzle to give you the answer which was annoying though. However a lot of people are exaggerating Fi since a lot of her notifications could be ignored.

 

[TheGreatLugia]

I like this news but I am reminded of one thing:

The changes talked about prior to a new Zelda's release always seem bigger than the actual impact of the changes in the game itself.

It seems like a lot of people are willing to give Aonuma the benefit of the doubt since the team delivered on all of the promises that were given for ALBW.

 

[papercan55]

This post is bringing back bad memories.

One day, maybe 10 years from now, Zelda will release an anniversary version of SS with reduced Fi and no motion controls. That will be a pretty good game.

i can't think of a nintendo game more deserving of a few fixes and a hd release.
motion controls were great in my opinion but fi alongside the horrible jaggies made the game an absolute mess, even on a sdtv.
In order to appreciate the beautiful artstyle the game would benefit from being in hd.
I've since played the game with cheat codes on the wii which disabled fi and the game was a massive improvement but my god did it look bad at 480p.

 

[bridegur]

And yeah, being prompted every time you collect an item was really annoying. Zelda TP had the same issue with rupees

To me, this is worse than tutorials. At least tutorials end.

 

[greenteaa]

What a relief. TP's intro was so long I nearly stopped playing before it got good. SS was worse though. All the stupid tutorials just killed anything good it had going on.
Everything we've heard so far about this game sounds great, my only concern now is that I will become overhyped...

 

[Lunar15]

Yeah, I think a lot of people unconsciously mix up the tutorials for SS and TP with such statements.

That or they wholeheartedly believe that one Gamasutra "start to dungeon" article where the chart deliberately ignored Majora's Mask, claimed that TP's "You Are Now Halfway Through Tutorial, Prepare For Another Hour of Tutorial" Hyrule Castle segment was the "start" of the game proper, and had some pretty far end of the spectrum number for how long it took him to get to Skyview Temple (and also acted like Skyview was the "start" of the game despite the player having spent a lot of previous time fighting monsters and enemies).

It took me less than an hour out of Skyloft in Skyward Sword on my first playthrough. It takes 15-20 minutes to reach the first dungeon after that, and it's all fighting enemies and puzzle solving during that time.

In Twilight Princess, you're still learning basic controls and half-implemented gameplay mechanics constantly by the 2-3 hour mark before Link even gets his clothes.

Oh my god: This.

TP's start was way rougher than SS's. I want to cut tutorials out as much as possible, but let's all get our facts straight here. SS gets a lot of undue hate in areas where it doesn't deserve it.

SS made a lot of really great strides in the direction Aonuma wants to go in, and he admitted so himself. The idea with SS was to make it so that you were doing more interesting and varied things outside of the dungeons, but the limitations of the world they created made it feel boxed in, which people didn't like. That's what he's trying to fix in the new Zelda.

 

[NeonZ]

no Zelda game has ever had five hours of tutorial. Let's not exaggerate to the point of sounding ridiculous now

Twilight Princess' did last about four hours. Of course, that's mixing tutorial with the beginning of the story, but still. And the worst thing is that in spite of spending so much time in some easy tutorials, part of the directions in the tutorial itself were fairly badly handled, which could lead players to wander aimlessly in the village for a while during part of it before triggering the next part.

 

[Deitus]

If I recall correctly she didnt stop the game to tell you you were low on battery. The Fi icon would flash and if you chose to press the button then she would inform you. She did interrupt a few times when you were trying to solve a puzzle to give you the answer which was annoying though. However a lot of people are exaggerating Fi since a lot of her notifications could be ignored.

You might be right about that. And I agree that people do exaggerate how much Fi actually interrupts, myself included. Honestly it wouldn't be nearly as bad if you could just scroll the text faster, especially when she is telling you the same things she had told you previously.

But telling you how to solve a puzzle without being prompted is pretty inexcusable.

 

[watershed]

It seems like a lot of people are willing to give Aonuma the benefit of the doubt since the team delivered on all of the promises that were given for ALBW.

I'm hopeful about this game as well and I think ALBW provides a great foundation to build off of. But I remain skeptical about any promised "big changes" to the Zelda formula. I remember Aonuma talking about how Link might go without a sword, prior to Skyward Sword's release as a major change, but in the game it ended up being those stealth tears sections that ended up being a drawn out version of stealth sequences in past Zeldas.

 

[masud]

I don't think Zelda needs less tutorials, I personally like the slower pace at the start of Zelda games. But I like to take my time and explore every inch of the game. And I'm helping my wife get though ww right now and she still needs help even with the tutorials so they obviously serve a purpose.

 

[Tom_Cody]

PLEASE. After Pokemon X/Y and A Link Between Worlds, I really want to see more Nintendo games that waste very little time in the beginning and are eager to set you loose in the world.

A Link Between Worlds was great in this regard. Everything about that game has me excited for Zelda Wii U.

 

[LegendofLex]

If I recall correctly she didnt stop the game to tell you you were low on battery. The Fi icon would flash and if you chose to press the button then she would inform you.

Don't forget the really grating chime that plays until you respond to her.

 

[-COOLIO-]

my god, where was this amazing nintendo for the wii?

 

[papercan55]

Oh my god: This.
TP's start was way rougher than SS's. I want to cut tutorials out as much as possible, but let's all get our facts straight here. SS gets a lot of undue hate in areas where it doesn't deserve it.

i agree TP had a worse start, far less enjoyable.
But at some point during TP you reach a stage where you can play the game without being tutored by a sidekick.
All the forward steps that skyward sword achieved, and there were lot's, it was all for nothing because someone at nintendo decided to ruin all their hard work by having Fi interrupt the player at least once every five minutes and she doesn't stop until the game is over.

If I recall correctly she didnt stop the game to tell you you were low on battery. The Fi icon would flash and if you chose to press the button then she would inform you.

so your telling me that the irritating sound she made constantly until you listened to her was ignorable.

I love skyward sword, beautiful art style, mostly great world and characters, i even loved the motion controls but people really don't exaggerate just how bad Fi was.

 

[Lunar15]

i agree TP had a worse start, far less enjoyable.
But at some point during TP you reach a stage where you can play the game without being tutored by a sidekick.
All the forward steps that skyward sword achieved, and there were lot's, it was all for nothing because someone at nintendo decided to ruin all their hard work by having Fi interrupt the player at least once every five minutes and she doesn't stop until the game is over.

Fi was certainly a bad mark on the game, I won't deny that, even if your argument is mainly hyperbole. I've never been a fan of any of the sidekicks, though, and Fi just seemed like an extension of them.

I'm just saying that the whole game gets torn down when it actually did a lot of great things.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

We already saw this with A Link Between Worlds. No hand-holding, no tutorials.

 

[kunonabi]

I see this SS criticism has reached points of pure parody.

There is NO metric by which it takes 4-5 hours for one to "start playing" SS.

not to mention you can skip quite a bit of it.