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Eiji Aonuma wants to include less tutorials in new Wii U Zelda
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
BlazeBreak
Member
Definitely agree with the opinions a lot of people are giving about Skyward Sword getting some unjust criticism on this front.
There are effectively going to be "tutorial" segments either way, I'm sure. They just need to be intelligently integrated into normal flow via good gameplay design (I may be thinking of something else, but I think Jim Sterling did a great Jimquisition either on or including this matter, looking at games like Super Mario Bros and Mega Man X) as opposed to being constantly presented with clunky, forced tutorials.
I personally don't take any stake into stuff like the "amount of time until first dungeon" charts. Because it's about more than just time for tutorials. It would be stale if every entry threw you into a dungeon as quickly as possible. There needs to be exposition, especially since Link often starts games living a normal, unaware life. From a story/atmosphere perspective, I'm fond of Skyward Sword's sweeping, slow-burn opening. But again, that's something that just needs to be an artistic decision and not something that's artificially slowed down by tutorials/etc.
There are effectively going to be "tutorial" segments either way, I'm sure. They just need to be intelligently integrated into normal flow via good gameplay design (I may be thinking of something else, but I think Jim Sterling did a great Jimquisition either on or including this matter, looking at games like Super Mario Bros and Mega Man X) as opposed to being constantly presented with clunky, forced tutorials.
I personally don't take any stake into stuff like the "amount of time until first dungeon" charts. Because it's about more than just time for tutorials. It would be stale if every entry threw you into a dungeon as quickly as possible. There needs to be exposition, especially since Link often starts games living a normal, unaware life. From a story/atmosphere perspective, I'm fond of Skyward Sword's sweeping, slow-burn opening. But again, that's something that just needs to be an artistic decision and not something that's artificially slowed down by tutorials/etc.
I strongly disagree. It's by far the worst. I'm currently playing Wind Waker HD and even it shits all over SS.
papercan55
Member
As i've said before, It did almost everything great. It's impossible not to love the world and characters and the dungeons are fantastic, it's a much better game than twilight princess but for me it was all spoiled by one character.
Call it hyperbole if you will, but it's my opinion.
LOL, what hyperbole. First of all, Skyward Sword is not rife with forced tutorials. The tutorials are optional, as they should be. The introduction has a lot of plot and cutscenes, and it takes 1 hour. You get the sword within the first 15-30 minutes of that hour. The story is pretty important and good. On replays you can skip cutscenes and text and the intro then takes 15 minutes. Twilight Princess was the game that had 2 hours of menial tasks and forced tutorials at the start, and people apparently love that game, now.
It's just so crazy how many of the complaints against Skyward Sword are overblown or fabricated.
I imagine one day they will rerelease the game completely unaltered and people who complained about the game will remark how much better it was that the original version.
But you have Midna doing that constantly during that time. And for the rest of the game she acts a lot like Fi but with a better personality.
Fi mostly pops up during the first part of Faron woods to ask if you want a tutorial on the dowsing mechanics and for story purposes. For most of the game she mostly pops up to update your objectives and for story purposes like any other helper. Stuff like low batteries, low hearts, and damaged sheilds cause Fi's icon to show up. You don't have to talk to her if you don't want to. Sure some of the times she popped up was annoying, but the frequency, duration, and content of her interruptions are greatly exaggerated.
Fi doesn't bother you either. She's in the background for the majority of the game. In the ladder half of the game she barely pops up.
People really have some warped ideas about SS, did half the people talking about excruciatingly long tutorials in that game even play it? And FI was a bit annoying but some of the hyperbole is silly, I think she is being used as a proxy by some people who didn't get the awesome controls and quit.
The tutorial section was skippable and optional, and even so it only took about 15 minutes if you bothered with it. Its TP, which seems to be entering it's nostaligic longing phase with alot of people that has the excruciatingly long mandatory tutorial phase.
The tutorial section was skippable and optional, and even so it only took about 15 minutes if you bothered with it. Its TP, which seems to be entering it's nostaligic longing phase with alot of people that has the excruciatingly long mandatory tutorial phase.
Hyperactivity
Banned
maybe an hour
Optional tutorial on climbing, optional on your sword, mandatory mini dungeon thing and wing ceremony. Oh, and wo second option l-targeting tutorial
Let's see what's introduced in these: new bird mechanics not previously in games+story point, new sword mechanics you can skip, l-targeting veterans can skip, Zelda and Link are really close, introduce Groose, never a bad thing, parachute mechanics in a plot point, ultra short not even mini dungeon to practice skills and running+climbing+stamina stuff not in other games you can avoid
On 2nd playthrough, or if you can easily figure out where the dowsing is pointing you, you can just run to where you need to go and not dowse at all
LegendofLex
Member
There were three optional tutorials in the opening section:
- Find Mia the cat.
- Learn to use the sword.
- Learn to use the shield.
But there were just as many required ones, plus a bunch of mandatory NPC conversations that you needed to pass through before you could even get to where the enemies were.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Skyward Sword's tutorial was fine, it was Fi that ruined the game.
As has already been said numerous times, it was TP that had the excruciatingly long tutorial.
As has already been said numerous times, it was TP that had the excruciatingly long tutorial.
dampflokfreund
Banned
These tutorials weren't optional.
Amazeballs
Member
Eiji knows just the right thing to say to get the fans excited, even if what he says isn't necessarily true. Skyward Sword issues were with Fi's needless explanations and the pacing of its exposition. The tutorial wasn't too long, in fact other Zeldas have tutorials everywhere.
For instance, Wind Waker's had a somewhat long tutorial in the beginning but it was much was much better handled because it was exciting and it moved the plot at a brisk place.
For instance, Wind Waker's had a somewhat long tutorial in the beginning but it was much was much better handled because it was exciting and it moved the plot at a brisk place.
Nintendo gathers data from users via their Club Nintendo pre and post play surveys. They've explicitly stated so in the past. It's not any leap of logic to determine there were a lot of complaints about tutorialization, hand holding, and interruption of gameplay in Skyward Sword.
Further, until there is any statement of a design that is counter to good design sense or general sentiment, I can't see this is as anything but a good thing.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Can they kill fetch quests next? Nothing killed SS for me more than the whole "Now use your drowsing to go around and dig crap up if you want to do anything."
CrimsonCommie
Member
Aonuma you know just what to say to make a guy happy 
Conkerkid11
Member
If it relies on Wiimote+ like Skyward Sword, people will complain. If it relies on the gamepad like Wind Waker, people will complain.
LegendofLex
Member
I love this idea. If they want to hide stuff all over the world, they might as well make it immediately useful, instead of "only useful if you bring this item to X character and/or collect Y number of them."
Hyperactivity
Banned
Wasn't saying al of them were, 2nd part goes over ALL of the tutorials/things in intro
L-targeting was optional iirc and lasted a few seconds
In the intro we're introduced to Link, Groose, and Zelda, and learn that Link and Zelda are closer than in other games
We learn how to control our bird, a new mechanic. If you know how to do this, it's over quickly, if you don't, you need the tutorial
We learn how to control the sword, although this is optional. However, given the complaints to the motion controls this game gets, I think some of those who skipped this should've played this part
Parachute mechanics- a new thing, takes you seconds if you dont really need the tutorial
That mini dungeon thing to get your bird that is there to see if youactually know how to use your sword
Running and stamina and climbing, new mechanics, optional
You meet Fi, find a big location needed throughout the game in the chamber in the statue, and learn to use the Skyward Strike, a useful move, new mechanic, and something needed throughout the story
Someone who's played the game once will be out of Skyloft in 30-45 minutes max
Nothing as useless or one time as goat herding or fishing or eagle cradle retrieveing in this one
I just finished Super Metroid again. Other than the item descriptions that pop up with a new power-up, there are only two tutorials in the game. Both use no dialogue and are completely optional. The first area also serves as a tutorial of sorts, teaching you basic movement in a more linear area with no enemies.
I'm not saying Zelda should be like Super Metroid, but it'd be nice to see more games with that sort of restraint.
I'm not saying Zelda should be like Super Metroid, but it'd be nice to see more games with that sort of restraint.
decoyplatypus
Member
It's good to be precise when describing the tutorials in recent Zeldas, but beyond recognizing that SS actually tightened up its tutorial segment compared to TP, I don't know that there's much to be gained from comparing their lengths if a 1-hour tutorial is still too long.
The SS-intro defenders do raise an interesting point about looking at tutorial content as well as length. SS has a lot more story content in its first few hours than a typical Zelda. Personally, I didn't think all exposition laid the foundation for an improved story and would prefer if Zelda games relied more on non-narrative devices for world-building and story content I think Zelda's gameplay favors a story structured like MM's rather than SS's), but I can appreciate that other people would not have SS's early cutscenes grouped with the hated tutorial. And the broader point about types of content is certainly true: few people are going to complain about time-to-first dungeon if everything you do before that first dungeon is fun. The twist is that Zelda fans have different ideas about what content is fun. Some people only like dungeons. Some people hate puzzles and only like exploring a huge overworld and fighting monsters. Some people like talking to NPCs, and some people think Link ought to be totally alone save for a shopkeeper or two. The series generally does a good job of compromising among these groups (and serving the large number of fans with less-extreme preferences), but I think these divisions suggest you're not going to want to bottle up players in the same path for long. By all means build a tutorial playground like Kokiri Forest/Outset/Skyloft/etc., but then leave players totally free to explore it or leave it on their own terms.
The SS-intro defenders do raise an interesting point about looking at tutorial content as well as length. SS has a lot more story content in its first few hours than a typical Zelda. Personally, I didn't think all exposition laid the foundation for an improved story and would prefer if Zelda games relied more on non-narrative devices for world-building and story content I think Zelda's gameplay favors a story structured like MM's rather than SS's), but I can appreciate that other people would not have SS's early cutscenes grouped with the hated tutorial. And the broader point about types of content is certainly true: few people are going to complain about time-to-first dungeon if everything you do before that first dungeon is fun. The twist is that Zelda fans have different ideas about what content is fun. Some people only like dungeons. Some people hate puzzles and only like exploring a huge overworld and fighting monsters. Some people like talking to NPCs, and some people think Link ought to be totally alone save for a shopkeeper or two. The series generally does a good job of compromising among these groups (and serving the large number of fans with less-extreme preferences), but I think these divisions suggest you're not going to want to bottle up players in the same path for long. By all means build a tutorial playground like Kokiri Forest/Outset/Skyloft/etc., but then leave players totally free to explore it or leave it on their own terms.
By mandatory NPC conversations you means story, correct? Every single 3D Zelda has had mandatory NPC convos used as exposition. It's pretty important to know who zelda and groose are, and to know about skyloft is it not? Every Zelda since oot and pretty every 3d game has that, including Dark and Demons souls.
Canis lupus
Member
Art style, Link design etc
Since when is world building considered a negative thing? Groose saving the day wouldn't be a big moment if the game didn't point out just how big of a dick he was, for example.
What does that say about the modern games, that don't need tutorials because every complex a action is relegated to a qte? That the audience is so stupid that it's not even worth teaching them in the first place? Tutorials aren't a problem, and lots of people do get confused and disoriented playing 3D games with renotely complex controls. Just make then optional so we can all be happy. Our preferences here on gaf rarely align with the preferences of the vast majority of most people, even those who consider themselves "gamers"
What needs to be brought down is the excess padding in these games. Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess both suffered from one key problem that hindered my enjoyment - arbitrary fetch quests. Stuff like "run around in an enclosed area to collect two-dozen mcguffins" or "run across the map to pick up one thing from an area you've been to a dozen times already, only to run right back and enter the doorway you were about to enter before I arbitrarily told you to go run an errand." Repeated boss fights, quests that send you off, rewarding you with neither an interesting or useful item, or relevant story information. All that stuff has just bogged down the last two console games. The tad tones, light seeds... neither were interesting or fun. The Silent Realm stuff was less bothersome as there were some more interesting layers on that concept to keep it engaging. But stuff like the Tadtones were not only hilariously poorly contextualized (I've killed god knows how many monsters, cleared out a bunch of dungeons, yet to prove my courage, I need to swim around and collect fish in a pool??) but was completely dull and lacked any real engagement.
Link Between Worlds REALLY managed to break away from alot of this nonsense, while still providing collectables throughout the world that played into your upgrades. I hope they continue down this path.
They could take the Gears approach, saying "Hey, if you wanna work off some of the rust, go left. Or we can just go straight to the action and go right."
Link Between Worlds REALLY managed to break away from alot of this nonsense, while still providing collectables throughout the world that played into your upgrades. I hope they continue down this path.
They could take the Gears approach, saying "Hey, if you wanna work off some of the rust, go left. Or we can just go straight to the action and go right."
She tells you obvious things you should already know as part of her character, (which most people didn't seem to like) so I don't consider her to be a tutorial, more for narrative purposes instead with her dry humor and the high percentage predictions. She's a robot programmed by hylia give the link the highest possible chance of succeeding in his quest after all. Where they went wrong is having her interrupt and halt gameplay (with slow scrolling text) which ruined pacing for the purposes of trying to build her character which a lot of people ended up getting annoyed by. They should have just had a non intrusive text box for her appear and let you read while playing like Hyrule Warriors is doing. I hope they carry that over to Zelda U
Almost all of those are new mechanics to the series, most of which are required to progress though the game, and they don't take long at all, just a dozen or so seconds each. Most people playing zelda games these days wouldn't understand or know how to utilise these properly otherwise. I've seen people on GAF that have trouble with with SS in understanding bird flying and or sword combat among other things because they weren't paying attention in the tuts.
You did a lot more in TP's intro such as learning several new mechanics (moreso than SS), getting several items, and meeting many more characters compared to SS. As well as introducing many new mechanics, systems and motions controls to the series, the whole point in spending so much time in ordon is to get you to care about the village and it's inhabitants who play an important role in the story. It was probably the wolf segment in TP that made the intro feel like it dragged for some people. SS just focused on a few characters instead (mainly zelda and groose) that are relevant to the story and in MM's long intro for instance, you're stuck in clock town and encouraged to meet all its inhabitants who are important to the game.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
SS tutorials were not painful at all, but I'm still super down with less tutorial and more jumping right into the action. I like experimenting and discovering full fleshed out mechanics on my own, and not being directed through them.
Dark Souls has zero mandatory NPC conversations. Even those that provide key items can just be killed instead.
LegendofLex
Member
The real question then must become why a series that originally had less than two dozen words of required text and that became famous for letting the player wander around a vast (but basic) world killing monsters and fighting through dungeons is suddenly now so bloated with "mechanics" that we need to be told how to do everything.
Since it gave proper exploration (see: player-driven world-building) and combat (see: challenges overcome by the player's willingness to master the game's mechanics rather than be told the proper way to do things) a backseat? I don't think Groose saving the day made SS a better game, as amusing a character as he was.
ErrorMacro
Member
I don't think the main problem is too much tutorials, but rather the way they are presented.
In the last few 3D Zelda games, the tutorials involved completing meaningless tasks, usually for the citizens of the town were the game starts. If instead of this, the game dumped you into a mini-dungeon, complete with item and boss, which served as introduction to the story and also offered tutorials for the game, I don't think people would be complaining a lot. As it is, it just takes too long to get to interesting action and to the beginning of the plot of the game.
In the last few 3D Zelda games, the tutorials involved completing meaningless tasks, usually for the citizens of the town were the game starts. If instead of this, the game dumped you into a mini-dungeon, complete with item and boss, which served as introduction to the story and also offered tutorials for the game, I don't think people would be complaining a lot. As it is, it just takes too long to get to interesting action and to the beginning of the plot of the game.
Wuthering_Heights
Banned
Include all the tutorials you want.
Just give me the option to turn them off before I start a game.
Just give me the option to turn them off before I start a game.
Megidolaon
Member
Thank the Lord. The tutorials are the biggest hurdle for me restarting Twilight Princess.
How about we just put all this tutorial information in a document file and print it out and have the player read it before playing the game. Then the game will just be all gameplay. We can call it... like... the "learnabook". And if someone complains about not knowing how to play we can say "lol read the effing learnabook". Then we wouldn't have to worry about hour long tutorials.
Maybe the learnabook could have real nice artwork in it to make it look nice, and it could smell like really nice ink, and maybe even come with a cool map too.
Maybe the learnabook could have real nice artwork in it to make it look nice, and it could smell like really nice ink, and maybe even come with a cool map too.
LegendofLex
Member
What about the tutorial showing you how to read the learnabook?
Fattony12000
Member
Good.
LegendofLex
Member
"Casuals" are, if anything, even more turned off by tutorials than anyone else.
See: the immense popularity of Wii Sports, 2D Mario being preferred to 3D Mario, the dramatic sales decline of Zelda the more hand-holding, tutorials, and story are added in.
Except TP failed. I didn't care for any of the inhabitants, I was annoyed by them. If someone didn't know what to expect from Zelda games, that opening segment in TP did a really poor job of explaining the appeal, or rather what's fun about them. "Walk the horse over here. YAAAYYYY. Go talk to this person. YAAYYY. Now go talk to this person. YAAAYYYY. Aw shucks, the kids ran off into the woods. Go get 'em! YAAAAYYY." Those characters may be...umm... "important" from a story perspective, but they meant nothing from a gameplay perspective. Your Majora's Mask comparison doesn't work here, as getting to know those characters, seeing their timetables etc. is part of the gameplay and questing. Outside of cutscenes, these characters don't play into the game at all, and are completely replaceable.
Twilight Princess' tutorial DOES introduce new mechanics, but it spaces them out too far, and does a poor job of contextualizing them in an engaging way. Something both Ocarina, Majora's Mask, and even Wind Waker did better.
God. Damn. It.
OmegaDL50
Member
All of these great things Aonuma is saying. More open world and more emphasis on exploration like the original Zelda, less nagging tutorials (As if I needed to know what the hell a Rupee was for the Nth time over), and an interesting art style that looks like a water color painting.
Now if only people would stop trying to make 3D Zelda into a Souls title derivative, instead of letting it be it's own thing. It could end up to be possibly the best 3D Zelda yet.
Now if only people would stop trying to make 3D Zelda into a Souls title derivative, instead of letting it be it's own thing. It could end up to be possibly the best 3D Zelda yet.